Non-British perspective: Froch easier to like than was Calzaghe

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

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Explain the difference between Hopkins and Cazlaghe's title defences?

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First, you claim I said Calzaghe ducked people. There goes what little's left of your credibility right there. Second, I said "opponents". You're specifying "title defenses". Another blow to your negligible credibility. But I'll humor you and list the opponents:

Hopkins

Glen Johnson
Keith Holmes
Felix Trinidad
William Joppy
Oscar de la Hoya
Howard Eastman
Jermain Taylor (twice)
Antonio Tarver
Winky Wright
Joe Calzaghe
Kelly Pavlik
Roy Jones Jr.
Chad Dawson

Calzaghe

Eubank
Jeff Lacy
Kessler
Hopkins
RJJ


Oh...... and Peter Manfredo.

Next!

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Those Nard fights weren't all his Middleweight defences and he lost to 4 of the guys on your list.

B-Hop's reign at MW was no better than JC's at SMW. JC's opposition was medicore until Lacy/Kessler. B-Hop's opposition was mediocre until Tito. Doesn't mean that either one of them was not the best in their division, but both records are pretty equal.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

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Explain the difference between Hopkins and Cazlaghe's title defences?

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First, you claim I said Calzaghe ducked people. There goes what little's left of your credibility right there. Second, I said "opponents". You're specifying "title defenses". Another blow to your negligible credibility. But I'll humor you and list the opponents:

Hopkins

Glen Johnson
Keith Holmes
Felix Trinidad
William Joppy
Oscar de la Hoya
Howard Eastman
Jermain Taylor (twice)
Antonio Tarver
Winky Wright
Joe Calzaghe
Kelly Pavlik
Roy Jones Jr.
Chad Dawson

Calzaghe

Eubank
Jeff Lacy
Kessler
Hopkins
RJJ


Oh...... and Peter Manfredo.

Next!

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Those Nard fights weren't all his Middleweight defences and he lost to 4 of the guys on your list.

B-Hop's reign at MW was no better than JC's at SMW. JC's opposition was medicore until Lacy/Kessler. B-Hop's opposition was mediocre until Tito. Doesn't mean that either one of them was not the best in their division, but both records are pretty equal.

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My original claim was that Bernard's list of opponents stacks up better than Calzaghe's list of opponents, and I still feel that way. I went back over both lists, and there's no way I can feel any different. I do agree, however, that they were both the best in their respective divisions during their reigns. In all honesty, I probably should have omitted DLH from the Hopkins list. De La Hoya had no business at 160..... never did anything worthy of note at 160, other than get a gift decision against Felix Sturm. DLH's fight against Hopkins, IMO, should not be considered a major accomplishment in Hopkins' career. But the rest of the list is still more impressive than Calzaghe's. Maybe not JC's fault, just like it won't be Wlad's fault that his list of opponents has been shit when he's done with his career. It's just circumstance. And yet... I failed to see a "Peter Manfredo" in Hopkins list of opponents at a comparable stage of his career. There's no way to talk up Manfredo. He was a bum.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

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Explain the difference between Hopkins and Cazlaghe's title defences?

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First, you claim I said Calzaghe ducked people. There goes what little's left of your credibility right there. Second, I said "opponents". You're specifying "title defenses". Another blow to your negligible credibility. But I'll humor you and list the opponents:

Hopkins

Glen Johnson
Keith Holmes
Felix Trinidad
William Joppy
Oscar de la Hoya
Howard Eastman
Jermain Taylor (twice)
Antonio Tarver
Winky Wright
Joe Calzaghe
Kelly Pavlik
Roy Jones Jr.
Chad Dawson

Calzaghe

Eubank
Jeff Lacy
Kessler
Hopkins
RJJ


Oh...... and Peter Manfredo.

Next!

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:vd:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO.

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You said "I beg to differ" about a comparison made between Calzaghe at 168 and Hopkins at 160. What does Hopkins post 160 career have to do with it?

It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with. Fact.

Calzaghe's list theses are either currant or ex World Champions.
RJJ
B Hopkins
M Kessler
J Lacy
B Mitchell
C Brewer
R Woodhall
R Reid
C Eubank
In that list are 10 World Champions some very good fighters, he all so faced many contenders some good and some not so good. But the same for all Champions don't face all good contenders.
There are a lot of people slag Joe off who he faced, but in that 10 there are some great fighters,so
please get your facts right.;)

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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At it again.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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May I ask you is there any Turkish Boxers , that are World Champions in the pro ranks I can't think of any
can you smart ass.:dontknow: ;D

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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May I ask you is there any Turkish Boxers , that are World Champions in the pro ranks I can't think of any
can you smart ass.:dontknow: ;D

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I'm British "smart ass" - Which also has zero to do with JC's credentials as a boxer. My parents are cypriot.

As for your question, there have been a few but they mostly sucked. Firat Arslan, Oktay Urkal at welter (was he ever champ?), Selcuk Aydin will probably get his hands on a useless trinket at some point (he sucks balls).

I still don't get your point? Did you have one apart from the ever mature, "My country is better than yours?"

This ladies and gents is exactly what I mean by "The Brits" that can't be objective. It's not all of us but many just can't. Blind patriotism I'm afraid I don't do..Which is why I say what I see when it comes to JC's career whilst you merely go off topic about Turkish fighters and other such irrelevant fluff.

Let's stay on topic shall we? ;)

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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May I ask you is there any Turkish Boxers , that are World Champions in the pro ranks I can't think of any
can you smart ass.:dontknow: ;D

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I'm British "smart ass" - Which also has zero to do with JC's credentials as a boxer. My parents are cypriot.

As for your question, there have been a few but they mostly sucked. Firat Arslan, Oktay Urkal at welter (was he ever champ?), Selcuk Aydin will probably get his hands on a useless trinket at some point (he sucks balls).

I still don't get your point? Did you have one apart from the ever mature, "My country is better than yours?"

This ladies and gents is exactly what I mean by "The Brits" that can't be objective. It's not all of us but many just can't. Blind patriotism I'm afraid I don't do..Which is why I say what I see when it comes to JC's career whilst you merely go off topic about Turkish fighters and other such irrelevant fluff.

Let's stay on topic shall we? ;)

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Did I hit a nerve.;D

You must have spent some time on Boxrec , it's not normally like you have a answer for every thing
as you say you are all way's right.:flowers: ;D

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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May I ask you is there any Turkish Boxers , that are World Champions in the pro ranks I can't think of any
can you smart ass.:dontknow: ;D

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I'm British "smart ass" - Which also has zero to do with JC's credentials as a boxer. My parents are cypriot.

As for your question, there have been a few but they mostly sucked. Firat Arslan, Oktay Urkal at welter (was he ever champ?), Selcuk Aydin will probably get his hands on a useless trinket at some point (he sucks balls).

I still don't get your point? Did you have one apart from the ever mature, "My country is better than yours?"

This ladies and gents is exactly what I mean by "The Brits" that can't be objective. It's not all of us but many just can't. Blind patriotism I'm afraid I don't do..Which is why I say what I see when it comes to JC's career whilst you merely go off topic about Turkish fighters and other such irrelevant fluff.

Let's stay on topic shall we? ;)

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When you refer to "Brits" in the third person and then have a Turkish Flag as your first flag next to your avatar how is anyone supposed to guess that your parents are Cypriot and that you class yourself as British? You are projecting a blind patriotism that really is not there for most posters in this debate. Your own prejudice has blinded you to the facts that the only ones getting emotional and "angry" in this debate are the Calzaghe haters.

You because you are a bit of a noob who used to hate boxing and still have to fully appreciate it's complexities, start calling Brit fans "deluded", moderators "morons" and "douche lords" and saying things like it was "Jeff Lacy FFS", Lacy was the overwhelming favourite much like Bute in the Froch fight.

Titofan started with his opening post, whilst claiming to be about comparing Calzaghe with Froch, he quickly degenerated into slagging off Calzaghe ,with nonsensical arguments about him slapping and having a "gaudy record", whatever that is,maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows. It then turns out that he hadn't bothered to watch a lot of his fights or find out much about his change of styles, not surprising really from someone who finishes the same post saying of Froch "I'd like to see him fight more in the U.S., where we'd have more of a chance to see him" Well guess what? nobody stateside was interested because they had already written him off. When Calzaghe fought Kessler in front of 50 000 fans at the Millenium stadium they televised that in America, that must say something about Joe Calzaghe's likeability.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO. Marciano I'm not too sure about.

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Explain the difference between Hopkins and Cazlaghe's title defences?

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First, you claim I said Calzaghe ducked people. There goes what little's left of your credibility right there. Second, I said "opponents". You're specifying "title defenses". Another blow to your negligible credibility. But I'll humor you and list the opponents:

Hopkins

Glen Johnson
Keith Holmes
Felix Trinidad
William Joppy
Oscar de la Hoya
Howard Eastman
Jermain Taylor (twice)
Antonio Tarver
Winky Wright
Joe Calzaghe
Kelly Pavlik
Roy Jones Jr.
Chad Dawson

Calzaghe

Eubank
Jeff Lacy
Kessler
Hopkins
RJJ


Oh...... and Peter Manfredo.

Next!

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:vd:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Its not Calzaghes fault that 168 was anorexic at his peak anymore then it was the fault of Hopkins for a mediocre 160 division

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I beg to differ with the Calzaghe/Hopkins/Marciano opponents comparison. Hopkins, throughout his remarkable career, fought more than a handful of big name opponents. His list more than stacks up against Calzaghe's opponents list, IMO.

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You said "I beg to differ" about a comparison made between Calzaghe at 168 and Hopkins at 160. What does Hopkins post 160 career have to do with it?

It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with. Fact.

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(TitoFan sighs... and summons up patience in the face of ignorance)

I "beg to differ" about the comparison of the fighters' opponents throughout their careers. Are you grasping at straws now, out of sheer desperation, and the realization that you have no argument? So quality of opponents ceases to be a factor once you've changed divisions? We can only compare quality of opposition within specific weight divisions? Do you really believe your own shit? ......... really?

LOL... are we also referring to ourselves in the 3rd person now?
"It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with."

TitoFan says Fenster full of shit.

:cool:

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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May I ask you is there any Turkish Boxers , that are World Champions in the pro ranks I can't think of any
can you smart ass.:dontknow: ;D

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I'm sorry, dude. But what the flying fuck does this have to with anything?

Jury, please disregard the previous argument.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

...maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows.

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Ok bro... I don't dislike you as I do Fenny, whose arrogance is surpassed only by his non-sensical arguments. But I'm noticing a disturbing trend here. You don't counter an argument against Calzaghe's style by lashing out at how many champion boxers Turkey has or doesn't have, or by mentioning Trinidad's losses. Trust me.... it doesn't look good in what should be a debate about Calzaghe's style.

Some of you people need to learn debating techniques. But I'm not picking on you. I've seen some other doozies on this thread. For instance... a poster claimed Ali used to slap also. But when I gave him a technical explanation as to why Ali was not a slapper.... his counter argument was: "Oh yes he did." Haven't heard from him since.

Someone else reads my argument about why Calzaghe's opponents haven't been all that.... and counters with: "Oh yeah? List the fighters you claim Calzaghe ducked?" Hard to argue with warped logic like that.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by Althugz

For gods sakes Tito! How dare you question JC's career and choice to fight Peter Manfredo Jr in his 40 something'th fight?? Can't you see he challenged himself at least 3 or 4 times in his career!? Such a hater!!

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May I ask you is there any Turkish Boxers , that are World Champions in the pro ranks I can't think of any
can you smart ass.:dontknow: ;D

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I'm sorry, dude. But what the flying fuck does this have to with anything?

Jury, please disregard the previous argument.

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..and Greenbeanz tried to defend this argument? Absolute fail..and he expected me to read the rest of his drivel?

You are bang on with the trend you notice :- Calzaghe fans will never debate. ALWAYS deflect. They'll call you out on your parents nationality, hobbies, your favourite boxers nationality and why is that? I guess they ran out of meaningful arguments for Joke Calzaghe's career. That tells me everything I need to know.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

(TitoFan sighs... and summons up patience in the face of ignorance)

I "beg to differ" about the comparison of the fighters' opponents throughout their careers. Are you grasping at straws now, out of sheer desperation, and the realization that you have no argument? So quality of opponents ceases to be a factor once you've changed divisions? We can only compare quality of opposition within specific weight divisions? Do you really believe your own shit? ......... really?

LOL... are we also referring to ourselves in the 3rd person now?
"It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with."

TitoFan says Fenster full of shit.

:cool:

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Insulting me doesn't disguise your glaring ignorance.

1. IamInuit SPECIFICALLY made a comparision between Hopkins and Calzaghe's divisional title runs. You SPECIFICALLY chose to answer "I beg to differ"

Now you either don't know anything about their career title runs or you didn't understand the point. Either way, the way you replied, you look stupid. Fact.

2. You were NEVER asked to name fighters YOU claim Calzaghe ducked. You were asked to name supermiddles that Cazlaghe didn't fight (ducked). This question stemmed SPECIFICALLY from your "I beg to differ" Hopkins/Calzaghe title run comparision.

So stop lying, stop crying and focus on the questions posed instead of insulting The Fenster. Fact

Hopkins reign at MW stunk until Tito. Best wins Vanderpool and Johnson. It's a shocking set of defenses over a 7 year period. After Tito, he fought nobodies again at MW, until DLH, who was a former Lighweight. You can't give Hopkins credit for opponents he lost to in this argument (also not opponents that weren't at MW) The best wins of B-Hops career (imo) are Tito and Pavlik, followed by Tarver and Pascal. He lost to RJJ, Taylor and Calzaghe and therefore those fights are not valid in the argument about his resume.

Similarly JCs opponents stank up to Lacy. Brewer, Reid, Mitchell, Woodhall and Eubank are probably more credible than B-Hop's MW opponents.

I am saying this completely objectively! Neither had realy good wins until later in their careers. It's not their fault that the oppositions was so mediocre. Prime for Prime, p4p, taking everytghing into consideration, they are hard to split. Each beats everybody on each others records up to their defining fights.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

...maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows.

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Ok bro... I don't dislike you as I do Fenny, whose arrogance is surpassed only by his non-sensical arguments. But I'm noticing a disturbing trend here. You don't counter an argument against Calzaghe's style by lashing out at how many champion boxers Turkey has or doesn't have, or by mentioning Trinidad's losses. Trust me.... it doesn't look good in what should be a debate about Calzaghe's style.

Some of you people need to learn debating techniques. But I'm not picking on you. I've seen some other doozies on this thread. For instance... a poster claimed Ali used to slap also. But when I gave him a technical explanation as to why Ali was not a slapper.... his counter argument was: "Oh yes he did." Haven't heard from him since.

Someone else reads my argument about why Calzaghe's opponents haven't been all that.... and counters with: "Oh yeah? List the fighters you claim Calzaghe ducked?" Hard to argue with warped logic like that.

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Tito you are from Porto Rico you stick up for fighters from your country don't you! but this cock I'm being nice now, who say's he's a Brit is full of crap.Most of his post he put's Fuck Calzaghe Billy no mates here is playing a game he loves this shit. He is what we call a shit stirrer he play's people.;)

Your right froch is way easier to like than calzaghe

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

...maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows.

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Ok bro... I don't dislike you as I do Fenny, whose arrogance is surpassed only by his non-sensical arguments. But I'm noticing a disturbing trend here. You don't counter an argument against Calzaghe's style by lashing out at how many champion boxers Turkey has or doesn't have, or by mentioning Trinidad's losses. Trust me.... it doesn't look good in what should be a debate about Calzaghe's style.

Some of you people need to learn debating techniques. But I'm not picking on you. I've seen some other doozies on this thread. For instance... a poster claimed Ali used to slap also. But when I gave him a technical explanation as to why Ali was not a slapper.... his counter argument was: "Oh yes he did." Haven't heard from him since.

Someone else reads my argument about why Calzaghe's opponents haven't been all that.... and counters with: "Oh yeah? List the fighters you claim Calzaghe ducked?" Hard to argue with warped logic like that.

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@TitoFan I have not lashed out and will not be trusting your judgement when it comes to what works in a debate unless I am eager to have my ass whipped. I did not counter any argument about Calzaghe's style by bringing up Turkish Boxers, I merely responded calmly to Altugs usual tactic of overcompensating for the fact he is British and therefore could never see himself as neutral, unless he slags off not only British Boxers like Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton but also UK fans who he refers to as Brits. Apparently even though your signature says otherwise it is inexcusable to have any national pride when it comes to boxing and so Dia Bando despite being a proud Welsh man should just say nothing when Altug gets a bit personal and precious?. As for Trinidad's losses they are the only common opponents he shares with JC so they are entirely relevant and may explain your irrational rage against Calzaghe's style.

What you and Altug seem to be saying is that every judge, boxing commentator, trainer, boxer or fan who thought JC's punches were legitimate scoring (and in some cases debilitating) shots, and not slaps are both deluded and in collusion?

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

...maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows.

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Ok bro... I don't dislike you as I do Fenny, whose arrogance is surpassed only by his non-sensical arguments. But I'm noticing a disturbing trend here. You don't counter an argument against Calzaghe's style by lashing out at how many champion boxers Turkey has or doesn't have, or by mentioning Trinidad's losses. Trust me.... it doesn't look good in what should be a debate about Calzaghe's style.

Some of you people need to learn debating techniques. But I'm not picking on you. I've seen some other doozies on this thread. For instance... a poster claimed Ali used to slap also. But when I gave him a technical explanation as to why Ali was not a slapper.... his counter argument was: "Oh yes he did." Haven't heard from him since.

Someone else reads my argument about why Calzaghe's opponents haven't been all that.... and counters with: "Oh yeah? List the fighters you claim Calzaghe ducked?" Hard to argue with warped logic like that.

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@TitoFan I have not lashed out and will not be trusting your judgement when it comes to what works in a debate unless I am eager to have my ass whipped. I did not counter any argument about Calzaghe's style by bringing up Turkish Boxers, I merely responded calmly to Altugs usual tactic of overcompensating for the fact he is British and therefore could never see himself as neutral, unless he slags off not only British Boxers like Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton but also UK fans who he refers to as Brits. Apparently even though your signature says otherwise it is inexcusable to have any national pride when it comes to boxing and so Dia Bando despite being a proud Welsh man should just say nothing when Altug gets a bit personal and precious?. As for Trinidad's losses they are the only common opponents he shares with JC so they are entirely relevant and may explain your irrational rage against Calzaghe's style.

What you and Altug seem to be saying is that every judge, boxing commentator, trainer, boxer or fan who thought JC's punches were legitimate scoring (and in some cases debilitating) shots, and not slaps are both deluded and in collusion?

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You really aren't as intelligent as you think you are. If you were you would have made the observation that I haven't once made any personal insults to Dia Bando. Despite him repeatedly calling me all the names under the sun. Since finding out he was an old man, I won't go there. Was brought up a little better than to insult an elder. So he can say what he wants. Personally, I find it immature for a man of his age but I won't insult him.

Secondly, I didn't once say that there was anything wrong with national pride. It just simply means in most cases that you can't be objective if you carry too much of it. I just pointed that out. Nothing particularly wrong with it it that's your thing.

Again, you say I'm over compensating for it by slagging off British fighters? Is that way I've been giving Froch credit recently? Is that why Chris Eubank is one of my favourite boxers of all time?

Once again - I SAY WHAT I SEE. Race, nationality or any of that shit doesn't come into it. Go incorrectly analyse someone else - you're like this weird cyber stalker.. :/

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

...maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows.

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Ok bro... I don't dislike you as I do Fenny, whose arrogance is surpassed only by his non-sensical arguments. But I'm noticing a disturbing trend here. You don't counter an argument against Calzaghe's style by lashing out at how many champion boxers Turkey has or doesn't have, or by mentioning Trinidad's losses. Trust me.... it doesn't look good in what should be a debate about Calzaghe's style.

Some of you people need to learn debating techniques. But I'm not picking on you. I've seen some other doozies on this thread. For instance... a poster claimed Ali used to slap also. But when I gave him a technical explanation as to why Ali was not a slapper.... his counter argument was: "Oh yes he did." Haven't heard from him since.

Someone else reads my argument about why Calzaghe's opponents haven't been all that.... and counters with: "Oh yeah? List the fighters you claim Calzaghe ducked?" Hard to argue with warped logic like that.

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@TitoFan I have not lashed out and will not be trusting your judgement when it comes to what works in a debate unless I am eager to have my ass whipped. I did not counter any argument about Calzaghe's style by bringing up Turkish Boxers, I merely responded calmly to Altugs usual tactic of overcompensating for the fact he is British and therefore could never see himself as neutral, unless he slags off not only British Boxers like Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton but also UK fans who he refers to as Brits. Apparently even though your signature says otherwise it is inexcusable to have any national pride when it comes to boxing and so Dia Bando despite being a proud Welsh man should just say nothing when Altug gets a bit personal and precious?. As for Trinidad's losses they are the only common opponents he shares with JC so they are entirely relevant and may explain your irrational rage against Calzaghe's style.

What you and Altug seem to be saying is that every judge, boxing commentator, trainer, boxer or fan who thought JC's punches were legitimate scoring (and in some cases debilitating) shots, and not slaps are both deluded and in collusion?

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You really aren't as intelligent as you think you are. If you were you would have made the observation that I haven't once made any personal insults to Dia Bando. Despite him repeatedly calling me all the names under the sun. Since finding out he was an old man, I won't go there. Was brought up a little better than to insult an elder. So he can say what he wants. Personally, I find it immature for a man of his age but I won't insult him.

Secondly, I didn't once say that there was anything wrong with national pride. It just simply means in most cases that you can't be objective if you carry too much of it. I just pointed that out. Nothing particularly wrong with it it that's your thing.

Again, you say I'm over compensating for it by slagging off British fighters? Is that way I've been giving Froch credit recently? Is that why Chris Eubank is one of my favourite boxers of all time?

Once again - I SAY WHAT I SEE. Race, nationality or any of that shit doesn't come into it. Go incorrectly analyse someone else - you're like this weird cyber stalker.. :/

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Poor you not in my rocking chair just yet, handbags at dawn;D

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Originally Posted by Dia bando

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

...maybe because Trinidad lost to Roy Jones Jr and Hopkins? who knows.

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Ok bro... I don't dislike you as I do Fenny, whose arrogance is surpassed only by his non-sensical arguments. But I'm noticing a disturbing trend here. You don't counter an argument against Calzaghe's style by lashing out at how many champion boxers Turkey has or doesn't have, or by mentioning Trinidad's losses. Trust me.... it doesn't look good in what should be a debate about Calzaghe's style.

Some of you people need to learn debating techniques. But I'm not picking on you. I've seen some other doozies on this thread. For instance... a poster claimed Ali used to slap also. But when I gave him a technical explanation as to why Ali was not a slapper.... his counter argument was: "Oh yes he did." Haven't heard from him since.

Someone else reads my argument about why Calzaghe's opponents haven't been all that.... and counters with: "Oh yeah? List the fighters you claim Calzaghe ducked?" Hard to argue with warped logic like that.

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@TitoFan I have not lashed out and will not be trusting your judgement when it comes to what works in a debate unless I am eager to have my ass whipped. I did not counter any argument about Calzaghe's style by bringing up Turkish Boxers, I merely responded calmly to Altugs usual tactic of overcompensating for the fact he is British and therefore could never see himself as neutral, unless he slags off not only British Boxers like Calzaghe, Froch and Hatton but also UK fans who he refers to as Brits. Apparently even though your signature says otherwise it is inexcusable to have any national pride when it comes to boxing and so Dia Bando despite being a proud Welsh man should just say nothing when Altug gets a bit personal and precious?. As for Trinidad's losses they are the only common opponents he shares with JC so they are entirely relevant and may explain your irrational rage against Calzaghe's style.

What you and Altug seem to be saying is that every judge, boxing commentator, trainer, boxer or fan who thought JC's punches were legitimate scoring (and in some cases debilitating) shots, and not slaps are both deluded and in collusion?

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You really aren't as intelligent as you think you are. If you were you would have made the observation that I haven't once made any personal insults to Dia Bando. Despite him repeatedly calling me all the names under the sun. Since finding out he was an old man, I won't go there. Was brought up a little better than to insult an elder. So he can say what he wants. Personally, I find it immature for a man of his age but I won't insult him.

Secondly, I didn't once say that there was anything wrong with national pride. It just simply means in most cases that you can't be objective if you carry too much of it. I just pointed that out. Nothing particularly wrong with it it that's your thing.

Again, you say I'm over compensating for it by slagging off British fighters? Is that way I've been giving Froch credit recently? Is that why Chris Eubank is one of my favourite boxers of all time?

Once again - I SAY WHAT I SEE. Race, nationality or any of that shit doesn't come into it. Go incorrectly analyse someone else - you're like this weird cyber stalker.. :/

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Poor you not in my rocking chair just yet, handbags at dawn;D

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You do surprise me you like some one:rolleyes: besides yourself :o wonders never cease.;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

(TitoFan sighs... and summons up patience in the face of ignorance)

I "beg to differ" about the comparison of the fighters' opponents throughout their careers. Are you grasping at straws now, out of sheer desperation, and the realization that you have no argument? So quality of opponents ceases to be a factor once you've changed divisions? We can only compare quality of opposition within specific weight divisions? Do you really believe your own shit? ......... really?

LOL... are we also referring to ourselves in the 3rd person now?
"It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with."

TitoFan says Fenster full of shit.

:cool:

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Insulting me doesn't disguise your glaring ignorance.

1. IamInuit SPECIFICALLY made a comparision between Hopkins and Calzaghe's divisional title runs. You SPECIFICALLY chose to answer "I beg to differ"

Now you either don't know anything about their career title runs or you didn't understand the point. Either way, the way you replied, you look stupid. Fact.

2. You were NEVER asked to name fighters YOU claim Calzaghe ducked. You were asked to name supermiddles that Cazlaghe didn't fight (ducked). This question stemmed SPECIFICALLY from your "I beg to differ" Hopkins/Calzaghe title run comparision.

So stop lying, stop crying and focus on the questions posed instead of insulting The Fenster. Fact

---

Look..... "The Fenster". And I'm going to say this as slowly as I can. No one said anything about Calzaghe ducking anybody in this argument. N-o-b-o-d-y. You were the one who brought it up... and you're using the pathetic argument as a battering ram. Do me a favor and shove it, ok?

Also, quit splitting hairs about whether we're talking about title runs or entire careers. My point is comparing quality of opposition. And that wasn't even my original point. I started this thread because I never liked Calzaghe's slapping style in the fights that I did see. I never claimed I saw early Calzaghe, before he broke his hands. To use your own warped logic, I can only discuss and report on the later fights I did see... and the so-called "flurries" which weren't really flurries at all, because they were slaps, not even landed with the legal part of the glove. And I used this rationale to state that Froch is easier to like than Calzaghe. Frome there, the thread has slightly degenerated. Mainly because you go off on tangents, as is your style, to back up your nonsense.

So back my main point: Froch is way easier to like than was Calzaghe... mainly because of his fighting style, vs. Calzaghe's style. Fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

(TitoFan sighs... and summons up patience in the face of ignorance)

I "beg to differ" about the comparison of the fighters' opponents throughout their careers. Are you grasping at straws now, out of sheer desperation, and the realization that you have no argument? So quality of opponents ceases to be a factor once you've changed divisions? We can only compare quality of opposition within specific weight divisions? Do you really believe your own shit? ......... really?

LOL... are we also referring to ourselves in the 3rd person now?
"It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with."

TitoFan says Fenster full of shit.

:cool:

---

Insulting me doesn't disguise your glaring ignorance.

1. IamInuit SPECIFICALLY made a comparision between Hopkins and Calzaghe's divisional title runs. You SPECIFICALLY chose to answer "I beg to differ"

Now you either don't know anything about their career title runs or you didn't understand the point. Either way, the way you replied, you look stupid. Fact.

2. You were NEVER asked to name fighters YOU claim Calzaghe ducked. You were asked to name supermiddles that Cazlaghe didn't fight (ducked). This question stemmed SPECIFICALLY from your "I beg to differ" Hopkins/Calzaghe title run comparision.

So stop lying, stop crying and focus on the questions posed instead of insulting The Fenster. Fact

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Look..... "The Fenster". And I'm going to say this as slowly as I can. No one said anything about Calzaghe ducking anybody in this argument. N-o-b-o-d-y. You were the one who brought it up... and you're using the pathetic argument as a battering ram. Do me a favor and shove it, ok?

Also, quit splitting hairs about whether we're talking about title runs or entire careers. My point is comparing quality of opposition. And that wasn't even my original point. I started this thread because I never liked Calzaghe's slapping style in the fights that I did see. I never claimed I saw early Calzaghe, before he broke his hands. To use your own warped logic, I can only discuss and report on the later fights I did see... and the so-called "flurries" which weren't really flurries at all, because they were slaps, not even landed with the legal part of the glove. And I used this rationale to state that Froch is easier to like than Calzaghe. Frome there, the thread has slightly degenerated. Mainly because you go off on tangents, as is your style, to back up your nonsense.

So back my main point: Froch is way easier to like than was Calzaghe... mainly because of his fighting style, vs. Calzaghe's style. Fact.

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Tito do you like Froch's brawling style more than a pure boxing style, I can see your point I like both styles myself. I have watched Calzaghe many years and lot's of other fighters, I no a good fighter from
a bad one it's a mater of taste and I can go with that. ;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BIG H

Hopkins reign at MW stunk until Tito. Best wins Vanderpool and Johnson. It's a shocking set of defenses over a 7 year period. After Tito, he fought nobodies again at MW, until DLH, who was a former Lighweight. You can't give Hopkins credit for opponents he lost to in this argument (also not opponents that weren't at MW) The best wins of B-Hops career (imo) are Tito and Pavlik, followed by Tarver and Pascal. He lost to RJJ, Taylor and Calzaghe and therefore those fights are not valid in the argument about his resume.

Similarly JCs opponents stank up to Lacy. Brewer, Reid, Mitchell, Woodhall and Eubank are probably more credible than B-Hop's MW opponents.

I am saying this completely objectively! Neither had realy good wins until later in their careers. It's not their fault that the oppositions was so mediocre. Prime for Prime, p4p, taking everytghing into consideration, they are hard to split. Each beats everybody on each others records up to their defining fights.

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Keith Holmes was WBC middleweight champ, and Glen Johnson would go on to become IBF light heavyweight champ. He also beat William Joppy, who had been a good middleweight champ in his own right. B-Hop's win over DLH doesn't rate for me... 'cause DLH had no business at 160 to begin with. His brief stay there was a sham.

But I'm not here really to defend B-Hop's quality of opposition throughout the years, 'cause I'm not a B-Hop fan.... and besides, as with Wlad Klitschko and probably with Calzaghe himself... maybe they're not to be faulted as to the lack of classic opposition that make for epic fights. If they're not available, they're not available... and that's that.

Somehow I was drawn into this side argument, when my main point was and still is.... the "un-fan-friendliness" of Calzaghe's style in his later fights. I do have to make a parenthesis, however, and decry the choice of Peter (WTF?) Manfredo as an opponent at that particular stage of Calzaghe's career. I honestly don't think Hopkins had a "Peter Manfredo" at that stage of his own career. But that's another story.

That Calzaghe had brittle hands and had to adapt his style to that fact? That's all well and good. But it makes for lousy professional fights. Like I stated several times before..... I can watch a slugfest, or I can watch a chess match between two master boxers. But even these "chess matches" contain legitimate boxing punches. Punches landed in true form, by professionals in their craft. Slapping is something you see in "Toughman" competitions, when two guys are dragged out of a bar and paid $50 to slap each other to death.

That's all I'm saying.

Bando, I like both. Read my post to Big H, I just posted a few seconds ago... it explains the whole thing from my own personal perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

(TitoFan sighs... and summons up patience in the face of ignorance)

I "beg to differ" about the comparison of the fighters' opponents throughout their careers. Are you grasping at straws now, out of sheer desperation, and the realization that you have no argument? So quality of opponents ceases to be a factor once you've changed divisions? We can only compare quality of opposition within specific weight divisions? Do you really believe your own shit? ......... really?

LOL... are we also referring to ourselves in the 3rd person now?
"It's not Fenster's credibility you should be concerned with."

TitoFan says Fenster full of shit.

:cool:

---

Insulting me doesn't disguise your glaring ignorance.

1. IamInuit SPECIFICALLY made a comparision between Hopkins and Calzaghe's divisional title runs. You SPECIFICALLY chose to answer "I beg to differ"

Now you either don't know anything about their career title runs or you didn't understand the point. Either way, the way you replied, you look stupid. Fact.

2. You were NEVER asked to name fighters YOU claim Calzaghe ducked. You were asked to name supermiddles that Cazlaghe didn't fight (ducked). This question stemmed SPECIFICALLY from your "I beg to differ" Hopkins/Calzaghe title run comparision.

So stop lying, stop crying and focus on the questions posed instead of insulting The Fenster. Fact

---

Look..... "The Fenster". And I'm going to say this as slowly as I can. No one said anything about Calzaghe ducking anybody in this argument. N-o-b-o-d-y. You were the one who brought it up... and you're using the pathetic argument as a battering ram. Do me a favor and shove it, ok?

Also, quit splitting hairs about whether we're talking about title runs or entire careers. My point is comparing quality of opposition. And that wasn't even my original point. I started this thread because I never liked Calzaghe's slapping style in the fights that I did see. I never claimed I saw early Calzaghe, before he broke his hands. To use your own warped logic, I can only discuss and report on the later fights I did see... and the so-called "flurries" which weren't really flurries at all, because they were slaps, not even landed with the legal part of the glove. And I used this rationale to state that Froch is easier to like than Calzaghe. Frome there, the thread has slightly degenerated. Mainly because you go off on tangents, as is your style, to back up your nonsense.

So back my main point: Froch is way easier to like than was Calzaghe... mainly because of his fighting style, vs. Calzaghe's style. Fact.

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No one is splitting hairs and I have certainly not gone off on tangents.

1. "N-o-b-o-d-y said anything about Calzaghe ducking anybody in this argument."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Calzaghe ducked and dodged throughout his career.

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2. You didn't understand the point IamInuit made. Fact.

3. You don't like Calzaghe because he "slaps" and fought Manfredo? OK. Why would I give a flying fuck who you like? Have I made a single comment about this? No. I've replied specifically to things relating to form/records. Fact.

The Fenster.

Fenster... let IamInuit speak for himself. He never uttered another word after he foolishly tried to counter my "slapping" argument by arguing that Ali was a slapper. I countered with technical explanations proving that Ali was not a slapper... and he countered back with "Oh yes he was." I called him on the weakness of that counter argument, and I haven't heard a peep from him since.

As for the rest of it... frankly I'm tired of arguing with you. You're not worth the trouble. And since you're bent on having the last word, go ahead and say something stupid again. No one would expect anything less.

;)

I don't see how Calzaghe wasn't fan friendly. He sold out stadiums and finished out his career throwing a 1000 punches a round on HBO. How more exciting can a fighter be?

If we are talking fan friendly, Calzaghe is no Bernard Hopkins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

I don't see how Calzaghe wasn't fan friendly. He sold out stadiums and finished out his career throwing a 1000 punches a round on HBO. How more exciting can a fighter be?

If we are talking fan friendly, Calzaghe is no Bernard Hopkins.

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Miles... he sold out stadiums. No doubt about that. Any British fighter with an undefeated record, not a very common occurence for any fighter nowadays, will do that. And hand it to the British... they certainly know how to back their fighters.

But I'd rather see someone throw 100 real punches in a round, than someone throwing 1000 slaps. It's that simple. Workrate is one thing... effective punching is another. And no... Calzaghe is no Bernard Hopkins. I wouldn't exactly call Bernard fan friendly either... but for even more reasons. Not only was Bernard's mauling and grappling style painful to watch... but Hopkins himself didn't care what the fans thought or didn't think of him. Calzaghe was probably a pretty good bloke... but the "flurries" that brought the fans out of their seats were sometimes hilarious. Few real punches thrown with bad intentions. Let's just say slow-motion replays were not Calzaghe's best friends.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Fenster... let IamInuit speak for himself. He never uttered another word after he foolishly tried to counter my "slapping" argument by arguing that Ali was a slapper. I countered with technical explanations proving that Ali was not a slapper... and he countered back with "Oh yes he was." I called him on the weakness of that counter argument, and I haven't heard a peep from him since.

As for the rest of it... frankly I'm tired of arguing with you. You're not worth the trouble. And since you're bent on having the last word, go ahead and say something stupid again. No one would expect anything less.

;)

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WTF are you talking about? Ali slapped more the Calzaghe and I witnessed the mans entire career. What do you mean I never replied? So you think that I am going to be bothered about this forums shitty ubiquitous key board wars where a bunch of hallway monitors decide what is fact and what is fiction? Calzaghe had one of the best ko ratios in boxing history prior to around the time of Omar Shieka. Thats a fucking fact.

I have not uttered another word because nothing was left to be said. The feelings you have about Calzaghe are forum urban legends. I merely attempted to correct that fallacy. So next time bring something adult and objective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Fenster... let IamInuit speak for himself. He never uttered another word after he foolishly tried to counter my "slapping" argument by arguing that Ali was a slapper. I countered with technical explanations proving that Ali was not a slapper... and he countered back with "Oh yes he was." I called him on the weakness of that counter argument, and I haven't heard a peep from him since.

As for the rest of it... frankly I'm tired of arguing with you. You're not worth the trouble. And since you're bent on having the last word, go ahead and say something stupid again. No one would expect anything less.

;)

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WTF are you talking about? Ali slapped more the Calzaghe and I witnessed the mans entire career. What do you mean I never replied? So you think that I am going to be bothered about this forums shitty ubiquitous key board wars where a bunch of hallway monitors decide what is fact and what is fiction? Calzaghe had one of the best ko ratios in boxing history prior to around the time of Omar Shieka. Thats a fucking fact.

I have not uttered another word because nothing was left to be said. The feelings you have about Calzaghe are forum urban legends. I merely attempted to correct that fallacy. So next time bring something adult and objective.

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Again you counter my explanation as to why Ali didn't slap with "Yes he did". Do you and Fenster attend the same grade school? Back up your claims with facts or technical explanations, or slink back into the shadows.

There are not many boxing forums left. They have largely become some kind of stupid club. That is to say something other then a boxing discussion forum. Personal insults and stagnation.

I’ll stick to what I said in this thread and have seen nothing remotely factual to change my mind.

But by all means keep up the fight even if it’s a lost cause. You say you are impartial and yet set out to prove otherwise. I’m convinced. No need to go along further.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

There are not many boxing forums left. They have largely become some kind of stupid club. That is to say something other then a boxing discussion forum. Personal insults and stagnation.

I’ll stick to what I said in this thread and have seen nothing remotely factual to change my mind.

But by all means keep up the fight even if it’s a lost cause. You say you are impartial and yet set out to prove otherwise. I’m convinced. No need to go along further.

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Yeah... big words my man. Back them up with facts. Don't sit there and just say that Ali slapped. Back it up with explanations, observations. Anything but "yes he did." You've posted about a dozen times and have yet to say anything other than "yes he did." From the very first, I gave you a good explanation as to why he didn't. Calzaghe slapped. Ali didn't. Prove me wrong. But no... you and Fenster come from the same school of thought.

I'm still waiting.

You prefaced your intent on slapping at the end of his career. In other words, the end justifies the means. It's really at a point where I really have no reason to point it out. Objective intent I am sure lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Ali did NOT slap. Ali had little power in his punches, because of the way he threw them. He rarely put his whole body weight behind his punches, but rather threw them while leaning back or falling away. There's a huge difference between that and slapping. Ray Leonard, if you're including him in that group... was most definitely not a slapper. He could have his meaningless flurries, like a few he threw against Hagler. But he could punch with power, and had a few good KOs to his credit. Calzaghe was a slapper. For whatever the reason. Brittle hands, whatever. He slapped. The flurries looked downright U-G-L-Y. Turned me off immediately. Whatever the reason for Calzaghe to fight Manfredo, it was laughable. Should've never occurred at that stage of Calzaghe's career. Being a "Contender" star is a dubious entry in a fighter's resume.

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IamInuit, this is what I responded to you about a dozen posts ago when you claimed Ali was a "slapper". All you've done since then is answer me with "Yes he was." No counter-arguments... no explanations backing up your own points of view.... nothing. Between you repeating yourself, and Fanny going off on absurd tangents... you're accomplishing nothing but to convince me that neither of you knows how to drive home a point.

If this is what you call "insulting" and "hating", then so be it. I'm still waiting to hear any real logic from either of you two.

Did you watch the Doug Jones fight? How about Young? You want to lecture me on slapping? Ali stole more rounds in a career by doing so then anyone else in history.

You and Fanny continue to try my patience. Again... you're not backing up your statements. Ali threw a lot of punches off his back foot, without any leverage. They were punches... just not meant to create damage. He was a master boxer... he knew when to put his body behind his punches and when to punch defensively. Calzaghe, as can be clearly seen in slow-motion replays of his later fights... threw punches awkwardly, not just landing with the wrong part of the glove... but his whole arm motion looks funny. Maybe he was protecting his brittle hands. But it still makes for ugly looking professional boxing.

Empirical.

observation
experience
repeatability