London will be overrun by 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians

They are not allowed to claim for 3 months! I thought the Tories made that clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Kirkland is that your sole contribution to this thread? Have you thrown your lot in with Farrage and Brockton and resorted to distorting the argument to get some brownie points?

---

you racist cunt @Greenbeanz you better stop dissing brownies you fuckwit. Do you think we don't get your subtle innuendos? :mad:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Kirkland is that your sole contribution to this thread? Have you thrown your lot in with Farrage and Brockton and resorted to distorting the argument to get some brownie points?

---

you racist cunt @Greenbeanz you better stop dissing brownies you fuckwit. Do you think we don't get your subtle innuendos? :mad:

---

And you are green with envy about how he is beating your arguments. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Kirkland is that your sole contribution to this thread? Have you thrown your lot in with Farrage and Brockton and resorted to distorting the argument to get some brownie points?

---

I'm just asking you a question.

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.:(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.:(

---

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.:(

---

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it. :cool:

---

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

look what happened to amerikkka in the past 20 years----NAFTA, open borders, illegaL immigrant AMNESTY--- 7 guatemalans sleeping to one illegal attic studio, getting free medical treatment at the clinics, their girlfriends having ANCHOR BABIES, cannot deport them, politically incorrect, we Americans go down to the accounting offices in the towns we live in, give our CV in for an accountant or bookkeeper job, and they say its been filled........we find out an uneducated, non-English speaking Central American has got the job offer for $7.75 per hour. Bookkeepers in NJ normally earn $15-20 per hour. Americans cant afford to take the job for less than say $15 an hour, and these cunts are accepting it for 7.75 an hour-----because they pay $75 dollarsper month rent by packing into a little hallway or attic with 6 other Central Americans and dont have the big rent bills or utilities bills, etc.

you call that good for the economy???? only if you are a dope is that good for the economy.

You sound like Alex Jones. Hysterical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.:(

---

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it. :cool:

---

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

---

I do accept that different people's views on this will be shaped by their own experiences and outlook. Personally, I have never been remotely negatively affected by immigration (and by the way I'm from a very working class/bordering on poor family). Thats the truth for me, but I understand that individuals may have different experiences.

But Rich, for the love of god, stop calling me Ray! ;D

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Brockton is saying. I don't dispute that immigration has had a positive effect on the economy either, but I do disagree with that growth being positive for the general population of the UK. It is growth in the pockets of medium businesses who want to hire on the cheap and granted it works for them....at a cost to a significant sector of the population. The truth is that low educated, relatively unskilled workers are the vast bulk of workers in any country, so to have them competing with millions of legal and millions more illegal migrants, is a rather heavy pill to swallow. It isn't a fair game. Romania for the English with a minimum wage of 88p an hour and Romanian a language spoken by few or England for Romanians where the minimum wage is over 6 pounds and in a world where everyone can speak some English. How does that equation ever amount to being game in an open labour market?

Liberalism sometimes wants its cake and to eat it too, and in this instance the liberals are usually people who are very comfortable and with the least to lose. The typical broadsheet reader has nothing to fear and thus liberalism at all costs is the majority view. Sometimes you have to say no to unchecked liberalism and this is just one of those issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gandalf

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Brockton is saying. I don't dispute that immigration has had a positive effect on the economy either, but I do disagree with that growth being positive for the general population of the UK. It is growth in the pockets of medium businesses who want to hire on the cheap and granted it works for them....at a cost to a significant sector of the population. The truth is that low educated, relatively unskilled workers are the vast bulk of workers in any country, so to have them competing with millions of legal and millions more illegal migrants, is a rather heavy pill to swallow. It isn't a fair game. Romania for the English with a minimum wage of 88p an hour and Romanian a language spoken by few or England for Romanians where the minimum wage is over 6 pounds and in a world where everyone can speak some English. How does that equation ever amount to being game in an open labour market?

Liberalism sometimes wants its cake and to eat it too, and in this instance the liberals are usually people who are very comfortable and with the least to lose. The typical broadsheet reader has nothing to fear and thus liberalism at all costs is the majority view. Sometimes you have to say no to unchecked liberalism and this is just one of those issues.

---

You make some interesting points there Miles and I'll have a think about them.
Certainly the issue of the educated, or 'broadsheet readers' being detached and thus scewing the view is one I have pondered but not really thought too deeply about. But I have wondered whether my current position may be akin to being in an ivory tower in regards to the impact that immigration can have. I've always felt immune from the ivory tower syndrome due to my upbringing but it's possible that I am just as susceptable as other liberal broadsheet types.
Not all growth being good is also an interesting point, but I'll have to look into that as I've always being a growth is good for all thinker.

Having said this, I just want to make it clear that I still vehemently disagree with some of the generalisations, stereotypes and fear mongering that surrounds this issue (not from you). I also do not consider anecdotes as proof of anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gandalf

I don't think there is anything wrong with what Brockton is saying. I don't dispute that immigration has had a positive effect on the economy either, but I do disagree with that growth being positive for the general population of the UK. It is growth in the pockets of medium businesses who want to hire on the cheap and granted it works for them....at a cost to a significant sector of the population. The truth is that low educated, relatively unskilled workers are the vast bulk of workers in any country, so to have them competing with millions of legal and millions more illegal migrants, is a rather heavy pill to swallow. It isn't a fair game. Romania for the English with a minimum wage of 88p an hour and Romanian a language spoken by few or England for Romanians where the minimum wage is over 6 pounds and in a world where everyone can speak some English. How does that equation ever amount to being game in an open labour market?

Liberalism sometimes wants its cake and to eat it too, and in this instance the liberals are usually people who are very comfortable and with the least to lose. The typical broadsheet reader has nothing to fear and thus liberalism at all costs is the majority view. Sometimes you have to say no to unchecked liberalism and this is just one of those issues.

---

You make some interesting points there Miles and I'll have a think about them.
Certainly the issue of the educated, or 'broadsheet readers' being detached and thus scewing the view is one I have pondered but not really thought too deeply about. But I have wondered whether my current position may be akin to being in an ivory tower in regards to the impact that immigration can have. I've always felt immune from the ivory tower syndrome due to my upbringing but it's possible that I am just as susceptable as other liberal broadsheet types.
Not all growth being good is also an interesting point, but I'll have to look into that as I've always being a growth is good for all thinker.

Having said this, I just want to make it clear that I still vehemently disagree with some of the generalisations, stereotypes and fear mongering that surrounds this issue (not from you). I also do not consider anecdotes as proof of anything.

---

In terms of your final paragraph, me too. I'm a migrant myself and would be a complete hypocrite to be against immigration completely, which obviously I am not. I think the reason I think the way I do is largely because I AM a migrant and can see just how strange England has become whenever I come home. Of course I do compare and contrast here and there all the time, which is something I am always being told off for doing. My argument is always that if you have nothing to contrast with, then how can you have perspective?

I largely read broadsheets myself, though I do read the 'other' newpapers too. What I always do too is to skim the reader responses to articles. Despite rumours to the contrary, I do take a keen interest in what others are saying, and that to me is often the most revealing aspect. Articles in broadsheets are so pro immigration that it is sometimes quite strange reading them. On the whole responses are supportive, but there are voices akin to the criticisms of immigration here. They tend to get drowned out. The trashy papers have their agenda, but the voices in the responses are typically those with less ability to articulate and they are the vast majority.

Speaking from my own perspective, the media and academia (at least in terms of social sciences) are largely systems of propaganda. I can honestly say that all these years later, that I disagree with how terms like globalisation and multiculturalism were taught to me. They even caught onto the word multiculturalism here as an attempt to deal with a low birth rate. It meant allowing poor unmarried farmers the purchase of wives overseas from poor south east Asian countries. It isn't going to end well. This is a country that teaches people a pure blood ideology in schools, has images of Dokdo whilst you wait in line in a bank, and these kids are going to be raised and given a terrible time. I suppose my point is that there are ways and means to do things. Purchasing wives in order to breed is weak and allowing uncontrolled immigration is weak too.

My other point is that buzz words are abused by the powerful with questionable aims. Milton Friedman is an obvious case in point. Take anything he says and do the intermediate version of it (same with Marx) as that is how the real world functions. Thus limited immigration for useful jobs, check the credibility of Korean farmers and wives for compatibility etc.

My view on UK immigration is siding with unskilled, lesser educated English people over those from different countries. For me, it is left wing politics with a national bias. I just don't see how reducing the quality of life for ordinary English people helps Britain in the long run. It's a curious experiment, but I don't see how a claim of growth can be judged as success. In Britain a housing bubble and more people in low paid work is being deemed as growth. Is that really growth? I call that systemic abuse.

Miles you would not recognise a fact if it jumped up and sunk its teeth into your bony arse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.:(

---

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it. :cool:

---

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

---

I do accept that different people's views on this will be shaped by their own experiences and outlook. Personally, I have never been remotely negatively affected by immigration (and by the way I'm from a very working class/bordering on poor family). Thats the truth for me, but I understand that individuals may have different experiences.

But Rich, for the love of god, stop calling me Ray! ;D

---

Sorry RAY.;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ryanman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dia bando

Our welfare system was set up to benefit ,people from our own Country who have contributed into
the system. We should not give out money housing, to none British immigrants weather EU citizens
or not, it is not sustainable giving hand out to people.
You pay in you take out simple, no if's or buts we have a housing shortage why open the borders
and let more people in, when we can't house the people we got madness.

Sorry to say this it's time we looked after our own citizens, not the Eu's I worry for my OWN
not for other part's of the Eu, stay put and keep your poverty with you my worry is our poor
people will be dragged down to there level of poverty.
We will be returning to the beginning of the last Century, were people lived in squalor it's coming
the Village were I live 10 to 15 people living in one house guess what my friends were are they
from the eastern block.
We are supposed to have evolved, but all I see us is devolving back into the dark ages.:(

---

Immigration has a net GROWTH effect on our economy.
Can you show me anything that disputes that?

So we won't be dragged down anywhere.

You guys are just repeating the same things even though facts show it to be wrong.

Immigrants have had a net growth effect on our economy since 2000.

As they did in the 50s, the 60s, the 80s.

Immigrants to the UK have never caused an increase in poverty levels. Ever.
If any of you can show one piece of evidence that they have then please share it. :cool:

---

Ray the facts are I've seen it with my own eyes, not bull shit figures in reality the British worker
is suffering cheap labour has driven DOWN wages facts, putting British workers jobs and working
conditions at great risk. Cheap labour is no good for the average person in this Country, the only
winners are the employers who drive down wages, tell me how is that good for the economy.!!!

Putting British workers on the dole, and employing cheap emigrant workers what good does that do
none, I spend my money in the local economy. I don't send my money to any other Country all my
money I spend here.
Sorry you facts are as week as dish water, facts are the British worker gets Fucked over again, the rich want cheap labour, back to the day's on bended knees.
All the people I work with feel the same way, we are feed up with all the bull shit in reality we have
to put our own house in order, because there's no room this house is FULL to the brim.

---

I do accept that different people's views on this will be shaped by their own experiences and outlook. Personally, I have never been remotely negatively affected by immigration (and by the way I'm from a very working class/bordering on poor family). Thats the truth for me, but I understand that individuals may have different experiences.

But Rich, for the love of god, stop calling me Ray! ;D

---

Sorry RAY.;D

---

No problem Rach ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Miles you would not recognise a fact if it jumped up and sunk its teeth into your bony arse.

---

Snide comments aside, I don't see what facts I am supposed to be missing. Would you care to enlighten us all because quite frankly, I don't see nor understand the case for allowing unfair labour markets to exist. Liberalism at all costs is not desirable. It is extremism and in the case of a nation state, can cause immense harm.

The levels of unrest and anger have been fermenting for years and people are told, that it is wrong to question why half the checkout counter people are no longer English, you are supposed to just accept that this is progress. Nobody begrudges different people working as everybody needs to work, but I think people are angry about how it was done in a very shady way and now that the extent of the change is so apparent, the poor in particular are wondering why on earth they themselves are struggling to make a living. They have been sold down the river, and they are right to think that way. Why are there jobs advertised in Romania which they don't even bother to advertise in the UK? Is that not questionable? It's a corporatist agenda to get labour as cheaply as possible. It's labour as an unquestioning, do as you are told, cheap, factor of production.

We are growing again, they tell you! It's disturbing to say the least. At what cost? Ordinary people haven't seen wages go up in half a decade, disparities in wealth are at massive levels, but hey house prices are going up and more low paying jobs! We are growing, keep on repeating it, and it must be true. Thus bills go up, transport goes up, savings rates almost nil in real terms, rents go up, but wages stagnate. Nothing to see here, we are growing! Utter madness.

Half the checkout counter? I have only ever met one foreign checkout worker and she was Spanish. 1. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria? All the trains and planes are already booked up and full said Farage, Lies."Oh but this is only the start " you say. What a doom monger you are. Ryanman has clearly studied the issue in depth and you have dismissed his expertise in favour of uncollaborated anecdotes. It is not snide to point out your aversion to facts it is honesty.Using immigrants as a scapegoat has long been the way of the privileged few to keep the heat of themselves, just as despite benefit fraud only accounting for 0.7% of expenditure the unemployed are attacked by the Tories along with the disabled as though they are the reason the working poor are so skint. Smoke and mirrors. Huge corporations avoiding tax, corrupt MPs and quangoes, inept and greedy banks bailed out by tax payers and you are worried about hard working immigrants or people living in cardboard boxes? Shame on you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Half the checkout counter? I have only ever met one foreign checkout worker and she was Spanish. 1. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria? All the trains and planes are already booked up and full said Farage, Lies."Oh but this is only the start " you say. What a doom monger you are. Ryanman has clearly studied the issue in depth and you have dismissed his expertise in favour of uncollaborated anecdotes. It is not snide to point out your aversion to facts it is honesty.Using immigrants as a scapegoat has long been the way of the privileged few to keep the heat of themselves, just as despite benefit fraud only accounting for 0.7% of expenditure the unemployed are attacked by the Tories along with the disabled as though they are the reason the working poor are so skint. Smoke and mirrors. Huge corporations avoiding tax, corrupt MPs and quangoes, inept and greedy banks bailed out by tax payers and you are worried about hard working immigrants or people living in cardboard boxes? Shame on you.

---

When you have more than ample amount of unskilled labour, why do we need more,! we have a
housing problem were I live there are few houses, to be had.
People move to better themselves, trouble is we have very little to offer, we have horrendous cut's
wage cut's etc, the roads are not paved with gold, were I live they are full of pot holes.!

The eastern block have large amounts of poverty, mostly down to communism remember years
of spending on the arms race. Theses Country need growth, and good economy's people moving to other Country's leave a void as Poland have found out they are places they are short of labour.!
Were I live we have suffered, we have about 10.000 poles this put's a strain on employment for
the locals, housing etc. It's not much fun when the locals, have been on the housing list for years
and a eastern block family turn up, and get social housing straight away, this causes resentment.

Social housing is at breaking point, there are no jobs and we are adding to the problem just letting
more poor unskilled homeless people in, reality is you have to see to your own FIRST.
I don't hate anyone, there is a old saying if you have a 2lbs bag of sugar, you CAN'T put 3lbs in it
true fact. No room no Jobs people living on the streets.!

All I can say on the matter is you cant have it both ways , you cant say people are wrong to castigate all immigrants , then go off the fantasy that they will all bring prosper.
You also have to accept , if people don't want any more immigrants they have a right to say. Also I don't remember anyone here saying that the mass migration would happen overnight , if an immigrant stays here and lands benefits I wonder if all his family will follow in time ?
It a difficult issue for sure but as much as I respect the views of Beanz and others , I really do not agree with you at all , I for one just don't see the advantage of more people when as Rich says we already have a housing and job shortage , I do also understand many social issues need to be addressed to sort out the countries problems not just immigration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Half the checkout counter? I have only ever met one foreign checkout worker and she was Spanish. 1. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria? All the trains and planes are already booked up and full said Farage, Lies."Oh but this is only the start " you say. What a doom monger you are. Ryanman has clearly studied the issue in depth and you have dismissed his expertise in favour of uncollaborated anecdotes. It is not snide to point out your aversion to facts it is honesty.Using immigrants as a scapegoat has long been the way of the privileged few to keep the heat of themselves, just as despite benefit fraud only accounting for 0.7% of expenditure the unemployed are attacked by the Tories along with the disabled as though they are the reason the working poor are so skint. Smoke and mirrors. Huge corporations avoiding tax, corrupt MPs and quangoes, inept and greedy banks bailed out by tax payers and you are worried about hard working immigrants or people living in cardboard boxes? Shame on you.

---

Go to London or any major city and check yourself into a hotel. You will be lucky to find anyone who is English. From the check in, to the cleaner, to the bar tender, you will be lucky to find a genuine English person.

You seem to have a very obsessive either/or attitude on this entire issue and quite frankly it smells decidedly iffy. Since when have I just dimissed anything Ryan has said? I have acknowledged elements of what he has said and then added further perspective. Unchecked immigration is NOT a good thing and more need to get away from the broadsheet agenda and it is quite obviously an agenda as nothing negative can be spoken about immigration. They clearly have an either/or attittude to it and on the flip side so do the tabloids, but arguing quite the opposite. What I have actually been saying is that you need CONTROLLED immigration. This isn't a stew where you can throw in millions of people. If it doesn't have balance then it will taste horrible. Immigration and society is the same. If it isn't done appropriately, then many will end up with a sour taste in the mouth, as indeed, appears to have become the case.

You also seem to be making a bizarre case that I ignore the massive levels of corruption in the British political system and would instead rather castigate immigrants. Bit of a strawman argument there and what an offensive crock of shit too. How many posts have I made over the years condemning British (and of course American) politics? I don't think I even need to respond to such a stupid argument. 'You blame the immigrants and the poor, but excuse the bankers'. You are having a laugh, right?

Also, don't forget that it is freezing cold in the UK and many of the migrants will be waiting until the somewhat eccentric tabloids have cooled down a little. How about discussing numbers a year down the line, and of course the government will not have a clue what the real numbers are, as they are the ones who are too busy attacking the poor of the UK. The poor of the UK who are also the victims of a whatever government is in place and both of whom started the agenda of uncontrolled immigration.

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

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No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

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Originally Posted by walrus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

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No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

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If we are talking about the US political system and its approach to domestic and foreign affairs, it is where it always is until serious reform takes place. However, just as I have no problems with ordinary Americans who are doing the best they can in a bad situation, I also feel the same way about ordinary English people too.

I think society is evolving in a bad way and immigration needs to be tightly controlled. The minimum wage needs to be increased so that it becomes a living wage. Then if native scroungers also won't work, then you are justified in taking away their benefits. They then also cannot blame migrants for stealing jobs etc. Being a socialist of a traditional kind I would also take away the properties of people who own multiple properties (at a decent rate of course) and socialise housing. It is a massive crime that housing benefit is being used to line the pockets of people who are getting rich off of property that should never have been private. Then I would nationalise the utilities, do away with Blair bullshit academies, nationalise public transportation, go to town on the banks and maybe ban a few of them, corporations will be paying their hefty corporate taxes, no excuses for any. My program will clean the rot from top to bottom and if it means not growing as fast as possible (heaven forbid), then threaten to leave my shores, and duly do so. Pay your corporate taxes or fuck off.

Then it will be time to deal with problem areas where people seem to think doing nothing is valid. You are entitled to do nothing, but not at the expense of the taxpayer. Only a very few people cannot actually do anything. Few are limbless AND lacking mental facilities. That is money that people have worked hard for and it should be appreciated. Not just funnelled into endless streams of housing benefit and the not yet retired to live as though they are retired. Are there really so many more disabled people than 15 years ago? It's remarkable. I don't blame them though as working doesn't pay and that is why serious social reconstruction is neccessary. Most CAN and SHOULD contribute something. Child benefit is another thing that should go. Support for one child, but anymore, is a CHOICE that YOU made. Sure the apparatus is there to help you. Cheap transport, rent, bills etc, but with that you should use YOUR newly found resources MATURELY and take RESPONSIBILITY. My reforms can only go so far. The benefits system is largely a joke and only very sick people should need them.

Only then and after the dust is settled would I ever consider allowing immigration to become part of the public agenda and it should be an agenda levelled with the British people at all times and ultimately if it is to expand, it will be with their consent. No longer will the corporates control Britain as they have done for 30 years of horrendous assault.

Apologies again, I stated in my utopian rant that corporations should be paying hefty corporate taxes, but considering that they must provide a living wage, I'm not entirely sure that would be fair on them either, so would have to consider that policy with my cabinet. Ryanman is my deputy and he is usually able to provide assistance on matters of this kind. I have potentially warped the thread with that rant which as far as threads go is fairly on topic.

what has Miles said that is wrong? It seems the sport to just lambast him but he has said nothing wrong. I met no Americans when I went into American hotels. Mexicans, Polish, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, Venezuelans and Haitians I met, met, met, and they couldnt ever understand basic English.

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

what has Miles said that is wrong? It seems the sport to just lambast him but he has said nothing wrong. I met no Americans when I went into American hotels. Mexicans, Polish, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, Venezuelans and Haitians I met, met, met, and they couldnt ever understand basic English.

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Nothing that I say is wrong. It is good sport to attack me, and in the course of a debate I see why it is. The easiest way to annoy me is to anger me with spurious insults and then I focus on the insults and the argument is deflected. It's an attempt to avoid the truth and I see the strategy. Or as seen in recent posts, the daft attempts to say that I blame immigrants instead of banks. I have never done such a thing.

The important thing for me to do is to avoid the attempts at deflection and stay on course. Nothing I have said is in the minority. Most of you are on my side of the equation and even Ryan who Greenbeanz thinks I have ignored, concedes that I have made some observable points.

There is only one ostrich with his neck in the sand and that is Greenbeanz and to be honest I don't fully know why.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

what has Miles said that is wrong? It seems the sport to just lambast him but he has said nothing wrong. I met no Americans :-\when I went into American hotels. Mexicans, Polish, Guatemalans, El Salvadoreans, Venezuelans and Haitians I met, met, met, and they couldnt ever understand basic English.

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Nothing that I say is wrong.:-\. It is good sport to attack me, and in the course of a debate I see why it is. The easiest way to annoy me is to anger me with spurious insults and then I focus on the insults and the argument is deflected. It's an attempt to avoid the truth and I see the strategy. Or as seen in recent posts, the daft attempts to say that I blame immigrants instead of banks. I have never done such a thing.

The important thing for me to do is to avoid the attempts at deflection and stay on course. Nothing I have said is in the minority. Most of you are on my side of the equation and even Ryan who Greenbeanz thinks I have ignored, concedes that I have made some observable points.

There is only one ostrich with his neck in the sand and that is Greenbeanz and to be honest I don't fully know why.

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Nice to see you are both interested in a nice balanced rational discussion and have not already made your minds up.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

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No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

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If we are talking about the US political system and its approach to domestic and foreign affairs, it is where it always is until serious reform takes place. However, just as I have no problems with ordinary Americans who are doing the best they can in a bad situation, I also feel the same way about ordinary English people too.

I think society is evolving in a bad way and immigration needs to be tightly controlled. The minimum wage needs to be increased so that it becomes a living wage. Then if native scroungers also won't work, then you are justified in taking away their benefits. They then also cannot blame migrants for stealing jobs etc. Being a socialist of a traditional kind I would also take away the properties of people who own multiple properties (at a decent rate of course) and socialise housing. It is a massive crime that housing benefit is being used to line the pockets of people who are getting rich off of property that should never have been private. Then I would nationalise the utilities, do away with Blair bullshit academies, nationalise public transportation, go to town on the banks and maybe ban a few of them, corporations will be paying their hefty corporate taxes, no excuses for any. My program will clean the rot from top to bottom and if it means not growing as fast as possible (heaven forbid), then threaten to leave my shores, and duly do so. Pay your corporate taxes or fuck off.

Then it will be time to deal with problem areas where people seem to think doing nothing is valid. You are entitled to do nothing, but not at the expense of the taxpayer. Only a very few people cannot actually do anything. Few are limbless AND lacking mental facilities. That is money that people have worked hard for and it should be appreciated. Not just funnelled into endless streams of housing benefit and the not yet retired to live as though they are retired. Are there really so many more disabled people than 15 years ago? It's remarkable. I don't blame them though as working doesn't pay and that is why serious social reconstruction is neccessary. Most CAN and SHOULD contribute something. Child benefit is another thing that should go. Support for one child, but anymore, is a CHOICE that YOU made. Sure the apparatus is there to help you. Cheap transport, rent, bills etc, but with that you should use YOUR newly found resources MATURELY and take RESPONSIBILITY. My reforms can only go so far. The benefits system is largely a joke and only very sick people should need them.

Only then and after the dust is settled would I ever consider allowing immigration to become part of the public agenda and it should be an agenda levelled with the British people at all times and ultimately if it is to expand, it will be with their consent. No longer will the corporates control Britain as they have done for 30 years of horrendous assault.

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You sound like Iain Duncan Smith the enemy of every socialist ever born. It is quite obvious that you have no idea what it is like to live in the UK these last few years with your ill informed piss poor excuse for an argument You are totally full of shit Miles. It is not even funny any more. "...being a socialist of a traditional kind" ? What kind is that ? the fantasy kind? the posing dandy kind ? the hypocritical kind? the " I am happy to share the wealth as long as it's not my wealth and not with foreigners kind" ? You are virtually the dictionary definition of "Elitist". "My reforms can only go so far." Listen to yourself man, getting up on your pulpit, completely and utterly devoid of any empathy, dismissing large swathes of the population because you have decided that they are not that disabled, or that they are selfish by having children or are not entitled to own more than one property however hard they worked for it.

You are right on one thing though, the benefits system is a joke, but not for the reasons you think.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...britain-crisis



Scapegoating migrants for Britain's crisis will damage us all

The Tories and Ukip are vying to terrify the public about Romanians and Bulgarians. What's needed is protection at work and a crash housing programme

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Scapegoating migrants for Britain's crisis will damage us all | Seumas Milne | Comment is free | The Guardian



Scapegoating migrants for Britain's crisis will damage us all

The Tories and Ukip are vying to terrify the public about Romanians and Bulgarians. What's needed is protection at work and a crash housing programme

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using an op-ed piece will not bolster the argument. i can find op-eds that say the opposite. Beanz your own points were better than the ones made here. Just like mine are better than Alex Jones'. Way better.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by walrus

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Actually, sorry for using some bad words in the prior post. I just get a bit irrate when words are being put in my mouth and words that are in no way a reflection of who or what I am.

---

No problem Gandalf, it's refreshing to see you trashing the UK. Does this mean the US isn't bad anymore.

---

If we are talking about the US political system and its approach to domestic and foreign affairs, it is where it always is until serious reform takes place. However, just as I have no problems with ordinary Americans who are doing the best they can in a bad situation, I also feel the same way about ordinary English people too.

I think society is evolving in a bad way and immigration needs to be tightly controlled. The minimum wage needs to be increased so that it becomes a living wage. Then if native scroungers also won't work, then you are justified in taking away their benefits. They then also cannot blame migrants for stealing jobs etc. Being a socialist of a traditional kind I would also take away the properties of people who own multiple properties (at a decent rate of course) and socialise housing. It is a massive crime that housing benefit is being used to line the pockets of people who are getting rich off of property that should never have been private. Then I would nationalise the utilities, do away with Blair bullshit academies, nationalise public transportation, go to town on the banks and maybe ban a few of them, corporations will be paying their hefty corporate taxes, no excuses for any. My program will clean the rot from top to bottom and if it means not growing as fast as possible (heaven forbid), then threaten to leave my shores, and duly do so. Pay your corporate taxes or fuck off.

Then it will be time to deal with problem areas where people seem to think doing nothing is valid. You are entitled to do nothing, but not at the expense of the taxpayer. Only a very few people cannot actually do anything. Few are limbless AND lacking mental facilities. That is money that people have worked hard for and it should be appreciated. Not just funnelled into endless streams of housing benefit and the not yet retired to live as though they are retired. Are there really so many more disabled people than 15 years ago? It's remarkable. I don't blame them though as working doesn't pay and that is why serious social reconstruction is neccessary. Most CAN and SHOULD contribute something. Child benefit is another thing that should go. Support for one child, but anymore, is a CHOICE that YOU made. Sure the apparatus is there to help you. Cheap transport, rent, bills etc, but with that you should use YOUR newly found resources MATURELY and take RESPONSIBILITY. My reforms can only go so far. The benefits system is largely a joke and only very sick people should need them.

Only then and after the dust is settled would I ever consider allowing immigration to become part of the public agenda and it should be an agenda levelled with the British people at all times and ultimately if it is to expand, it will be with their consent. No longer will the corporates control Britain as they have done for 30 years of horrendous assault.

---

You sound like Iain Duncan Smith the enemy of every socialist ever born. It is quite obvious that you have no idea what it is like to live in the UK these last few years with your ill informed piss poor excuse for an argument You are totally full of shit Miles. It is not even funny any more. "...being a socialist of a traditional kind" ? What kind is that ? the fantasy kind? the posing dandy kind ? the hypocritical kind? the " I am happy to share the wealth as long as it's not my wealth and not with foreigners kind" ? You are virtually the dictionary definition of "Elitist". "My reforms can only go so far." Listen to yourself man, getting up on your pulpit, completely and utterly devoid of any empathy, dismissing large swathes of the population because you have decided that they are not that disabled, or that they are selfish by having children or are not entitled to own more than one property however hard they worked for it.

You are right on one thing though, the benefits system is a joke, but not for the reasons you think.

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There is nothing hypocritical in any of what I say. I mean socialist as in the kind of socialist as formerly evidenced by a Labour Party that did actually represent Labour. I think sometimes people forget the meaning of the word Labour. Labour means to work and the socialism is to make work more tolerable for all and for society to help facilitate this thing called society.

Reforms such as mass scale nationalisation are to take away excessive private profiteering and to give people things they need directly. Hospitals and education should be free. Others such as utilities, transport, accomodation should be affordable. Thus with a living wage people can take home enough, spend their money on the neccessities and then be encouraged to be sensible with the rest. Oh, and of course a truly redistributive tax system to pay for it.

What is there about such a scheme that you dislike? It is pretty socialist as far as socialism goes. Are you American? Do you not understand the term having lived in England under 30 years of propaganda and abuse?

When it comes to disability and benefits, I did some research on this and technically if I was living in the UK, I could just claim disability allowance. Based on a moody disposition and an occasional fear of public speaking, I could con my way into getting something for nothing. Looking at the range of illnesses, many of these are no reason why you couldn't be doing a job appropriate to your particular needs. Since Blair the numbers of people on these benefits has grown exponentially. They are not disabled, they can do work of some kind. Look at the Benefits Street show, these people are physically able to work, but their mentality is 'Why should I?'. Once you have the living wage, then you have no excuses any more. These people have no appreciation of where their money comes from, it is an entitlement attitude. Someone else worked hard for that money to be deducted and it should be going to schools, fixing roads, etc, and not subsidising some fatty and her do nothing attitude and meanwhile she is smoking like a chimney.

In that sense I can see why some prefer immigrants. They will work hard. Before allowing that, I would like to see a serious attempt at fixing Britain itself as that was allowed to slip for over 20 years as Britain tried to sweep it under the rug. Then, if the societal revolution doesn't work, then you consider immigration. But what you currently see in the UK is a tragedy and a disaster. Just taking away benefits is not enough and is unfair. I say provide a living wage and that means maybe 18,000 pounds a year and a 4 day working week and I think gradually people will start to see that it makes sense to make an effort. On UK minimum wage and rent and bill costs it's no wonder some people do lose hope. If you can give back a little self respect then progress is made.

Your attitude is basically, say nothing, question nothing, don't be rude and criticise immigration or benefits. It's a futile and dead end stance.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Your attitude is basically, say nothing, question nothing, don't be rude and criticise immigration or benefits. It's a futile and dead end stance.

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This is a completely fabricated position that you have stooped to inventing because you will not even grant another human being the basic politeness of actually reading any of their posts. A very silly man with a nasty self serving attitude called Nigel Farrage spouts some groundless hateful bile in order to bellow some air into the furnace and start a British civil war. This is a politician who draws a wage for representing Britain in the Europe whilst never actually attending sessions in which he could stand up for British interests be they in fishing rights, farmers subsidies or anything that does not fit his own personal agenda. Brockton then starts a thread with a title that repeats his (Farrage's) distorted and hate filled lies claiming that

"London will be overrun by 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians"

In the UK the ruling Conservative party has after attacking the disabled and unemployed now decided that they will target the immigrant population in order to claw back some votes from dissident Tories who have deflected to UKIP. Neither yourself or Brockton seem remotely aware of how manipulated and blinded you both have been by an assertion that is neither true nor very edifying. People start generalising and lumping in legal with illegal immigration, criminals with hard working and often skilled migrants and conveniently ignoring the huge amount of British migrants working and living throughout Europe. Some of whom are indeed living on Benefits.

http://i.imgur.com/tJr2og4.jpg


How fucking dare you suggest that I would sit back and question nothing. Both yourself and Brockton have tried to turn the whole thread around and suggest that I am joining in with the majority and attacking you, despite myself and Ryanman being part of the minority in this thread urging caution and a more reasonable and realistic assessment of the situation. I know from experience how dangerous the propaganda that UKIP is and what it can do to ferment hated and violence toward minorities. In Italy and the Uk I have marched with the anti nazi league and others because the minority of far right idealists will exploit situations in order to propagate violence.

How can you go on about the plight of the Native Americans and the injustices and inequities of the British Empire and then join in with Brocktons callous dismissal of whole ethnic groups as less than people ? Do you actually really care or are you merely posing and trying to score an idealogical victory?

You both assume an awful lot and would do well to hold your tongues before putting words into the mouths of others and imagining that you can so easily know what somebody else's opinions are.

I do not believe in multiculturalism in which migrants isolate themselves from the country and the population within which they reside. And yet there are many British abroad who despite being in a country for years can not speak the language fluently and isolate themselves from their compatriots, so arrogant have they become. If I go to Catalan I want to enjoy Catalan culture, food, art and language and the same in Breton- Breton customs and music, food and wine or Basque - etc regions. Migrants who come here to work should contribute to society and I have never suggested anything different. Those here for the long term should integrate themselves into British society and contribute as they largely do.

Migrants are LESS likely to claim benefits and yet Farage and the Tories would like you to believe otherwise. Conservatives have stopped building council houses but they do not want you to blame them, they would rather the immigrants and unemployed take the flac. And then you try and lecture me on socialism. Have you lived in a commune? a squat? a kibbutz? a work camp? a voluntary socialist library?

Studying politics and living them are two entirely different things.

I am at heart an Internationalist. This means I am both proud to be English whilst not believing that this makes me innately better than any other nationality or ethnicity. I do not think for one minute that migration should be completely without temper or control but I also do not subscribe to the panic that Farage the cunt is intent on fostering. I will not resort to your lazy isms or to calling someone "these people" and I will not dismiss the Italians as thieves and pick pockets or the Romanians as Romani or the Romani as all being park shitting scum.

Your idea of a living wage, a four day week and an income of £18 000 a year will not happen but I did find this today. It is now too late to vote

European Citizens' Initiative for an Unconditional Basic Income (UBI) | #basicincome

Here is why thinking outside the box is sometimes the right thing to do.

https://decorrespondent.nl/541/why-we-should-give-free-money-to-everyone/20798745-cb9fbb39

An extimated 5 million came in in a decade and your chart shows far fewer leaving. It is hardly making the case that the arrangment is fair and working. English employment has been shown to have gone down and foreign employment has risen exponentially. Just not a fair balance of labour income and outcome, is it really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

An extimated 5 million came in in a decade and your chart shows far fewer leaving. It is hardly making the case that the arrangment is fair and working. English employment has been shown to have gone down and foreign employment has risen exponentially. Just not a fair balance of labour income and outcome, is it really.

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Farage's predicted 29 Million turns out to be two dozen at present, hardly a fair or balanced prediction on which the thread is based would you not agree ?

UK immigration: only two dozen Romanians have arrived since January 1, says ambassador - Telegraph

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

An extimated 5 million came in in a decade and your chart shows far fewer leaving. It is hardly making the case that the arrangment is fair and working. English employment has been shown to have gone down and foreign employment has risen exponentially. Just not a fair balance of labour income and outcome, is it really.

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Farage's predicted 29 Million turns out to be two dozen at present, hardly a fair or balanced prediction on which the thread is based would you not agree ?

UK immigration: only two dozen Romanians have arrived since January 1, says ambassador - Telegraph

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:lolhaha:

Please everyone read the article Greenbeanz has posted. It's really making me smile.

I have, but as I have said a matter of days ago, it is January and freezing cold here. Who would be on an uncertain job hunt in the middle of the English winter. It is more realistic to evaluated numbers at the end of a genuine period of time like a year. They will be significant and mock me if I am wrong, but make me King if I am right.

Greenbeanz thinks he's won some kind of argument. What a clown. It's the middle of bloody January. :rolleyes:;D

It's not about winning arguments though is it Miles? Yourself and Brockton have been manipulated by UKIP's misinformation campaign and will be too embarrassed to admit it in a weeks time, a months time or a year's time. You never concede anything because you are a pompous twit.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

It's not about winning arguments though is it Miles? Yourself and Brockton have been manipulated by UKIP's misinformation campaign and will be too embarrassed to admit it in a weeks time, a months time or a year's time. You never concede anything because you are a pompous twit.

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I can and do admit when I am wrong. Two weeks is a ridiculously short time to evaluate the development of an open labour market. These things take time. In fact, I hope that I am proven wrong as I don't think it would be fair to have a hundred thousand migrants.