Calzaghe-Hagler?

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by porkypara

If you asked me who has acomplished more in there carrer and is the better all round fighter I would say Hagler.

But as the saying goes " styles make fights" and Calzaghe has the style and skills to beat Hagler.

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Actually I disagree, and I think you're perception of this comes from the Lacy fight and thinking that Hagler is somehow a Lacy-style fighter. He wasn't. Lacy didn't have a quarter of the boxing and countering skill of Hagler. He just bullrushed guys. Even Peter Manfredo was outboxing him for 4 rounds.

Hagler has the style to beat Calzaghe. Hagler had the chin to accept whatever Calzaghe could dish out and all those punches Calzaghe throws are more chances for Hagler to counter. When people think counterpuncher now, they think James Toney, Mayweather, or Chris Byrd, fighter would counter and potshot. Hagler would box until he saw his open counter, and continue forward with aggressive pressure. He was also great at cutting off the ring. Can you imagine what Hagler would do Calzaghe in the corners? If Calzaghe got rocked like he did against Jones or Salem, Marvin would have been able to press the advantage effectively. He was a master of that.

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Mate,to compair Hagler with Lacy is a discrace.:rolleyes:

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If you aren't using the Lacy fight as a bases for your statement that Calzaghe has the "style" to beat Hagler, you must be thinking about the Leonard fight? Who has Calzaghe fought that is close to Hagler's style? Calzaghe has proved that he as the style to beat guys who come forward without a plan (Lacy) or with only one plan (Kessler), and guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

I only brought up Lacy because I assuming you had that fight in mind when considering the two styles, but you must be thinking that Calzaghe would fight him like Leonard did.

Question, do you thing Calzaghe would be able to pitty-pat and run like Leonard did? That's the only style the "beat" Hagler, and it only worked on an old Marvin. Does Calzaghe have the footspeed of Ray Leonard? I'm not sure Calzaghe has the legs run like Leonard for 12 rounds. Calzaghe is going to engage, and that provides Hagler with opportunity.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

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Joe stopped them from working they were to intimidated to throw because they Knew Joe would be all over em like a rash, neither has ever looked as bad as they did against Joe, Hopkins was certainly throwing more than one punch at a time when he beat the supposed threat to Joe;D

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

Actually I disagree, and I think you're perception of this comes from the Lacy fight and thinking that Hagler is somehow a Lacy-style fighter. He wasn't. Lacy didn't have a quarter of the boxing and countering skill of Hagler. He just bullrushed guys. Even Peter Manfredo was outboxing him for 4 rounds.

Hagler has the style to beat Calzaghe. Hagler had the chin to accept whatever Calzaghe could dish out and all those punches Calzaghe throws are more chances for Hagler to counter. When people think counterpuncher now, they think James Toney, Mayweather, or Chris Byrd, fighter would counter and potshot. Hagler would box until he saw his open counter, and continue forward with aggressive pressure. He was also great at cutting off the ring. Can you imagine what Hagler would do Calzaghe in the corners? If Calzaghe got rocked like he did against Jones or Salem, Marvin would have been able to press the advantage effectively. He was a master of that.

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Mate,to compair Hagler with Lacy is a discrace.:rolleyes:

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If you aren't using the Lacy fight as a bases for your statement that Calzaghe has the "style" to beat Hagler, you must be thinking about the Leonard fight? Who has Calzaghe fought that is close to Hagler's style? Calzaghe has proved that he as the style to beat guys who come forward without a plan (Lacy) or with only one plan (Kessler), and guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

I only brought up Lacy because I assuming you had that fight in mind when considering the two styles, but you must be thinking that Calzaghe would fight him like Leonard did.

Question, do you thing Calzaghe would be able to pitty-pat and run like Leonard did? That's the only style the "beat" Hagler, and it only worked on an old Marvin. Does Calzaghe have the footspeed of Ray Leonard? I'm not sure Calzaghe has the legs run like Leonard for 12 rounds. Calzaghe is going to engage, and that provides Hagler with opportunity.

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At middleweight SRL had no punch power.His corner even told him not to load up on his shots.

Everybody says that Hagler was past his best when he boxed SRL which is true,but dont forget SRL was past his best as well and also fighting at a new weight for the first time in 4 years.

YES I think Calzaghe could move and box Hagler over 12 rounds.I think he could beat Hagler to the punch then move or just change the angle a bit.
Calzaghe would not risk going toe to toe with Hagler unless he could feel him wilting which is unlightly.

I am not saying it would be an easy fight for Joe but on his night he could beat MMH.

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

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Joe stopped them from working they were to intimidated to throw because they Knew Joe would be all over em like a rash, neither has ever looked as bad as they did against Joe, Hopkins was certainly throwing more than one punch at a time when he beat the supposed threat to Joe;D

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I respect your opinion but im afraid Hagler beats Cazlaghe , and in my opinion it isnt even a close contest , i think Tommy Hearns was a better Puncher and better boxer than JC , everybody keeps saying how JC would box , well when Marvin was in his prime he wouldnt allow him to box , pressure pressure pressure , and Calzaghe gets stopped , for my money .

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by ross

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

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Joe stopped them from working they were to intimidated to throw because they Knew Joe would be all over em like a rash, neither has ever looked as bad as they did against Joe, Hopkins was certainly throwing more than one punch at a time when he beat the supposed threat to Joe;D

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I respect your opinion but im afraid Hagler beats Cazlaghe , and in my opinion it isnt even a close contest , i think Tommy Hearns was a better Puncher and better boxer than JC , everybody keeps saying how JC would box , well when Marvin was in his prime he wouldnt allow him to box , pressure pressure pressure , and Calzaghe gets stopped , for my money .

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To say that you think Hagler would win is fair enough because it would be a close fight IMO but to say that Calzaghe would be stopped is totaly off the mark.
Calzaghe has never been close to being stopped and he can fight 12 rounds at a fast pace with ease.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by ross

Joe stopped them from working they were to intimidated to throw because they Knew Joe would be all over em like a rash, neither has ever looked as bad as they did against Joe, Hopkins was certainly throwing more than one punch at a time when he beat the supposed threat to Joe;D

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I respect your opinion but im afraid Hagler beats Cazlaghe , and in my opinion it isnt even a close contest , i think Tommy Hearns was a better Puncher and better boxer than JC , everybody keeps saying how JC would box , well when Marvin was in his prime he wouldnt allow him to box , pressure pressure pressure , and Calzaghe gets stopped , for my money .

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To say that you think Hagler would win is fair enough because it would be a close fight IMO but to say that Calzaghe would be stopped is totaly off the mark.
Calzaghe has never been close to being stopped and he can fight 12 rounds at a fast pace with ease.

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hE ALSO HASNT FOUGH A GUY WHO COMES CLOSE TO BEING AS GOOD AS A PRIME MARVIN HAGLER

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

I respect your opinion but im afraid Hagler beats Cazlaghe , and in my opinion it isnt even a close contest , i think Tommy Hearns was a better Puncher and better boxer than JC , everybody keeps saying how JC would box , well when Marvin was in his prime he wouldnt allow him to box , pressure pressure pressure , and Calzaghe gets stopped , for my money .

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To say that you think Hagler would win is fair enough because it would be a close fight IMO but to say that Calzaghe would be stopped is totaly off the mark.
Calzaghe has never been close to being stopped and he can fight 12 rounds at a fast pace with ease.

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hE ALSO HASNT FOUGH A GUY WHO COMES CLOSE TO BEING AS GOOD AS A PRIME MARVIN HAGLER

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As Hagler is an all time great that statment would be true for most boxers.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Mate,to compair Hagler with Lacy is a discrace.:rolleyes:

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If you aren't using the Lacy fight as a bases for your statement that Calzaghe has the "style" to beat Hagler, you must be thinking about the Leonard fight? Who has Calzaghe fought that is close to Hagler's style? Calzaghe has proved that he as the style to beat guys who come forward without a plan (Lacy) or with only one plan (Kessler), and guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

I only brought up Lacy because I assuming you had that fight in mind when considering the two styles, but you must be thinking that Calzaghe would fight him like Leonard did.

Question, do you thing Calzaghe would be able to pitty-pat and run like Leonard did? That's the only style the "beat" Hagler, and it only worked on an old Marvin. Does Calzaghe have the footspeed of Ray Leonard? I'm not sure Calzaghe has the legs run like Leonard for 12 rounds. Calzaghe is going to engage, and that provides Hagler with opportunity.

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At middleweight SRL had no punch power.His corner even told him not to load up on his shots.

Everybody says that Hagler was past his best when he boxed SRL which is true,but dont forget SRL was past his best as well and also fighting at a new weight for the first time in 4 years.

YES I think Calzaghe could move and box Hagler over 12 rounds.I think he could beat Hagler to the punch then move or just change the angle a bit.
Calzaghe would not risk going toe to toe with Hagler unless he could feel him wilting which is unlightly.

I am not saying it would be an easy fight for Joe but on his night he could beat MMH.

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That's more reasonable logic, but I don't think Calzaghe has the legs the Leonard had, even coming off the layoff. I think it's a myth that the layoff had any negative impact on Leonard at all. Look at Vitali, he just came off a four year layoff and looked better than I have ever seen him. Leonard's layoff was actually an advantage for him. He had fewer miles on the tires and engine. Don't forgot, Ray took another year off, then hecame back to STOP a Donny LaLonde, a natural light heavyweight for the SMW and LHW belts. I'm not sure how Ray didn't have any power at MW, but then developed power at 168. Granted LaLonde wasn't an ATG, but he was a quality fighter in his prime. For all the talk of Leonard being a WW, the man was a two time SMW champion and a one-time LHW champion.

And he won all three of those belts after the Hagler fight.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by porkypara

Mate,to compair Hagler with Lacy is a discrace.:rolleyes:

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If you aren't using the Lacy fight as a bases for your statement that Calzaghe has the "style" to beat Hagler, you must be thinking about the Leonard fight? Who has Calzaghe fought that is close to Hagler's style? Calzaghe has proved that he as the style to beat guys who come forward without a plan (Lacy) or with only one plan (Kessler), and guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

I only brought up Lacy because I assuming you had that fight in mind when considering the two styles, but you must be thinking that Calzaghe would fight him like Leonard did.

Question, do you thing Calzaghe would be able to pitty-pat and run like Leonard did? That's the only style the "beat" Hagler, and it only worked on an old Marvin. Does Calzaghe have the footspeed of Ray Leonard? I'm not sure Calzaghe has the legs run like Leonard for 12 rounds. Calzaghe is going to engage, and that provides Hagler with opportunity.

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At middleweight SRL had no punch power.His corner even told him not to load up on his shots.

Everybody says that Hagler was past his best when he boxed SRL which is true,but dont forget SRL was past his best as well and also fighting at a new weight for the first time in 4 years.

YES I think Calzaghe could move and box Hagler over 12 rounds.I think he could beat Hagler to the punch then move or just change the angle a bit.
Calzaghe would not risk going toe to toe with Hagler unless he could feel him wilting which is unlightly.

I am not saying it would be an easy fight for Joe but on his night he could beat MMH.

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SRL stopped a Light Heavyweight Donny LaLonde who was a pretty big guy, so i disagree that SRL had no punching power at Middleweight or above.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

If you aren't using the Lacy fight as a bases for your statement that Calzaghe has the "style" to beat Hagler, you must be thinking about the Leonard fight? Who has Calzaghe fought that is close to Hagler's style? Calzaghe has proved that he as the style to beat guys who come forward without a plan (Lacy) or with only one plan (Kessler), and guys throw one punch at a time (Hopkins and Jones).

I only brought up Lacy because I assuming you had that fight in mind when considering the two styles, but you must be thinking that Calzaghe would fight him like Leonard did.

Question, do you thing Calzaghe would be able to pitty-pat and run like Leonard did? That's the only style the "beat" Hagler, and it only worked on an old Marvin. Does Calzaghe have the footspeed of Ray Leonard? I'm not sure Calzaghe has the legs run like Leonard for 12 rounds. Calzaghe is going to engage, and that provides Hagler with opportunity.

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At middleweight SRL had no punch power.His corner even told him not to load up on his shots.

Everybody says that Hagler was past his best when he boxed SRL which is true,but dont forget SRL was past his best as well and also fighting at a new weight for the first time in 4 years.

YES I think Calzaghe could move and box Hagler over 12 rounds.I think he could beat Hagler to the punch then move or just change the angle a bit.
Calzaghe would not risk going toe to toe with Hagler unless he could feel him wilting which is unlightly.

I am not saying it would be an easy fight for Joe but on his night he could beat MMH.

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SRL stopped a Light Heavyweight Donny LaLonde who was a pretty big guy, so i disagree that SRL had no punching power at Middleweight or above.

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Point I was trying to make is that SRL was not trying to hit Hagler with hard shots.

The punches he hit him with had nothing on them.Ray has said that himself in the past.

As Tommy Hearns found out there is no point trying to KO Hagler coz he is as hard as they come so you got to try and out box him and out think him which Duran came close to doing and SRL did.

First off, I am a huge Joe Calzaghe fan, but in reading many of the posts, it is clear many of you haven't seen many of Marvin's fights, and certainly didn't see them in the context of their times.
The only time Marvin was knocked downwas against Roldan and it was a slip, with a punch sort of aiding to push Marvin down.
I one wants to argue that Marvin's big wins were only against smaller fighters moving up, it's partially because he cleaned out the division and fought everyone who mattered on the way up while every champ avoided him. He was probably already past his prime when he won the title.
His skills a boxer are also underrated here.
If one wants to argue the opposition Hagler fought, tke away an overrated Jeff Lacy, a faded Chris Eubank, and two fighters well past their primes who both dropped him, in Jones and Hopkins - especially when the Hopkins fight is one many feel he lost ( I thought Calzaghe won easly,) and the only big win left for Calzaghe is Kessler....and who has he beaten?

Personally, I think it's a great fight, and it could go either way. Marvin cut people with his rapier like jab though, and I could see thatbecoming an issue in the fight. The only time Marvin was ever cut to speak of was against Hearns following the headbutt. Once he had the title stolen from him in his first bout with Antuofermo, he resolved to not go to the judegs , for fear the title would be stolen from him again, and considering the scores after twelve against Duran (one of my favorite fighters) and the Leonard decision, he had reason to.
Marvin didn't move up in weight, partially because the move would have been all the way to Light-Heavyweight, as the Super Middleweight Division wasn't created until late in his title reign, or possibly, even after his retirement. That menat the only title to contend for during most of his reign was through Michael Spinks, and the numbers and interest compared with the other fighters moving up toward Hagler made them the far more lucrative and interesting fights.
I'd probably go for Marvin by either late TKO in a fifteen round fight, or by a close battering decision. Of course, Calzaghe's ability to adjust would make the fight very difficult, and her could pull it out.
I'd also pick Marvin in an easy but hard fought decision vs. Hopkins. He had too much power and a much better workrate than Hopkins; If you lay against the ropes vs. Marvin, you would pay, body and soul. Who ever was as good a fighter after they faced him as they were before? He punished you from the ouset until the fight's conclusion.
For the record Marvin was 5'9 1/2 inches, not, certainly a giant, but not exactly Jake Matlala either.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by porkypara

At middleweight SRL had no punch power.His corner even told him not to load up on his shots.

Everybody says that Hagler was past his best when he boxed SRL which is true,but dont forget SRL was past his best as well and also fighting at a new weight for the first time in 4 years.

YES I think Calzaghe could move and box Hagler over 12 rounds.I think he could beat Hagler to the punch then move or just change the angle a bit.
Calzaghe would not risk going toe to toe with Hagler unless he could feel him wilting which is unlightly.

I am not saying it would be an easy fight for Joe but on his night he could beat MMH.

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SRL stopped a Light Heavyweight Donny LaLonde who was a pretty big guy, so i disagree that SRL had no punching power at Middleweight or above.

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Point I was trying to make is that SRL was not trying to hit Hagler with hard shots.

The punches he hit him with had nothing on them.Ray has said that himself in the past.

As Tommy Hearns found out there is no point trying to KO Hagler coz he is as hard as they come so you got to try and out box him and out think him which Duran came close to doing and SRL did.

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True true. Leonard admits his whole game was to steal rounds and didn't bother trying to inflict damage.

Its all about styles.

For example Ken Norten who was a good HW had the style to give Ali trouble who was in most peoples mind the best HW ever.


Hagler is the greater fighter if you were to make a list but IMO Calzaghe has the style to give him a lot of trouble and even beat him.


I must add its good to have quality debat for a change instead of a slagging match.