Regarding weight loss, straight from the horses mouth

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

I'm guessed that you've never boxed. Not holding that against you, but you wouldn't make statements about dropping weight if you had. There gets to a certain point where you can't reach the weight. For example, when I was 17, I could get down to the Featherweight limit with training, even though I was the same height I am now, as I didn't have the same level musculature as I do now, where I would struggle even with hard training to make the Light-Welterweight limit. Now I'm 23 now & fairly naturally muscled, but just my growth means that making certain weights isn't possible.

Hopkins was able to make it by living a life few of us could, partly due to a regimental attitude drilled into him during his time in prison. However, no way NOW could he make the Middleweight limit. Oscar brought it on himself by choosing to fight at 147 & trying to make the weight the wrong way because naturally his body couldn't get him down there in the same way Campbell's body couldn't get him below 138 for his fight with Funeka. This is not necessarily due to his living outside of fights (Campbell is pretty good, Oscar less so) but age. Oscar was capable of making 150 for his fight with Forbes, but I suspect that was his natural limit. What some guys can do, others can't.

Cotto does not live well outside of fights & I suspect it will catch up with him most probably at the hands of Pacquiao, who I suspect beats him anyway as he's a superior fighter. At the moment that fight is looking far from certain to be signed because Cotto's team are not keen on the catchweight

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Also Jaz you bring up another point. In attempting to demonstrate practical experience of this matter over me you have highlighted anther usueful point.

You, (I presume an amatuer boxer) KNOW what your weight limits are and what you can safely make.

Now I may be wrong but I'm guessing you are not a professional athlete with a world class team of trainers and nutritionists around you and 25 plus years of fighting experience to guide you, yet you claim to know your weight limits.

How did Oscar not know his? :confused:

If his team were so slack and woefully poor that they undertook to reach a fighting weight that was impossible for him to reach, then once again shame on HIM AND THEM!

It was Oscars responsibility to get down to 147 lbs, he claimed he could do it, his team of highly paid, experienced professionals were on hand to ensure he could do it and if they fucked it up it's his lookout.

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Oscar had probably over 10 million reasons to roll the dice on getting down to a functional 147, if you catch my drift

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Yep and that's my point. He went down because he thought it was easy money. He miscalculated, probably didn't train as seriously as he should have and paid the price.

He also may have had something wrong in the days prior because he weighed in at a worryingly low 142 lbs on fightnight.

But his example is of a fighter who got the weight cut terribly wrong. He's hardly the benchmark for Cotto dropping a couple of pounds, or of Floyd dropping to 143 to fight Marquez.

But people talk of the Oscar debacle as if that's the only outcome for any fighter attempting to cut weight whereas clearly it is not. It is the worst case scenario of when you do it completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Yes I understand perfectly the fact that everyone has a weight limit beyond which we they cannot safely drop, but that is not what I'm talking about here.

You basically just agreed with me in your post saying Hopkins was able to do it because he was extremely regimental and disciplined and Cotto doesn't live well between fights.

Which brings us back to my original point should we therefore judge the likes of Hopkins and Mosely who were able to lose weight at an advanced age more highly than the likes of Oscar who wernt?

My belief is that if Hopkins had Oscar's body, or Mosely did, they WOULD have made 147 lbs and still fought a damn good fight. That Oscar didn't was likely down to his outside promotional interests and maybe lack of real drive compared to the two.

So in essence do you disagree with me that if Hopkins possesed Cotto's or Oscar's body he would have been able to make the weight limits and fought Pacquaio without it negatively affecting him or not?

If you do agree that Hopkins or Mosely could have done it (well Mosely DID drop to 147) then should we not rate those fighters more highly becuase of this?

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The thing is Hopkins had been regimented well for quite a long time, whilst Oscar was not, however, I don't hold that against Oscar. The guy spent much of his early career cutting weight well beyond what his body should have let him & I believe that this also caught up with him. I won't judge a guy more highly for how he lives in between fights, some guys find it easier to live that life, I mean can you imagine 20 years without alchohol, any junk food or any kind of luxury? I couldn't do that & I doubt most could, Hopkins became conditioned to do that in prison.

Mosley despite starting his career at a higher weight is smaller than Oscar which is why he finds it easier. Up until he got to Welter, Oscar always looked way too big for his weight class. I'm no De La Hoya fan, but the fact is he did everything the hard way & always gave the sport his best. You're also right, if I as an amateur boxer know my limits then Oscar with all his money & nutritionists should also have known his. I think the problem he may have faced was he was convinced he could make the weight, but once the contract was signed found he couldn't & with $15m or so on the line tried to find ways to cut corners around it, something someone in my position would have thought better of with all that money on the line. Think of the Frankie Gavin situation at last summer's Olympics.

I never said I blamed Pac for that, but I was very critical of that fight on both men's behalf for a long time before that. I felt Pacquiao should fight JMM again or Campbell because Oscar was too old to make the weight effectively (I didn't know HOW ineffective he would be) & that Oscar should fight either Cotto or Margarito at LMW rather than picking on a Lightweight. Now if its at 145, Cotto should be able to make the weight & if he signs its on him, my problem was with figures of 143.

Oh & I do rate Hopkins & Mosley higher than De La Hoya & Cotto, but that's due to their performance in the ring. You can't expect every guy to live like Hopkins & Mayweather do, they need to enjoy life as well. Also that dedication to training can become a problem, as eventually you CAN'T make the weight as Hopkins discovered against Taylor (although I still thought he won both).

Also agree, I think people expect that Cotto will end up like Oscar did, but that won't happen I don't think. Oscar's weight on fight night was probably around 15-20lbs less than it had been on every fight night for the previous 6-7 years. Cotto if he only cuts 2 lbs won't be anywhere near as ineffective. Although even the ODLH debacle is not the worst scenario, sadly in this sport (& I'm not saying this will happen to Cotto) the worst scenario is a guy ending up with brain damage or in a body bag.

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Originally Posted by JazMerkin

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Yes I understand perfectly the fact that everyone has a weight limit beyond which we they cannot safely drop, but that is not what I'm talking about here.

You basically just agreed with me in your post saying Hopkins was able to do it because he was extremely regimental and disciplined and Cotto doesn't live well between fights.

Which brings us back to my original point should we therefore judge the likes of Hopkins and Mosely who were able to lose weight at an advanced age more highly than the likes of Oscar who wernt?

My belief is that if Hopkins had Oscar's body, or Mosely did, they WOULD have made 147 lbs and still fought a damn good fight. That Oscar didn't was likely down to his outside promotional interests and maybe lack of real drive compared to the two.

So in essence do you disagree with me that if Hopkins possesed Cotto's or Oscar's body he would have been able to make the weight limits and fought Pacquaio without it negatively affecting him or not?

If you do agree that Hopkins or Mosely could have done it (well Mosely DID drop to 147) then should we not rate those fighters more highly becuase of this?

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The thing is Hopkins had been regimented well for quite a long time, whilst Oscar was not, however, I don't hold that against Oscar. The guy spent much of his early career cutting weight well beyond what his body should have let him & I believe that this also caught up with him. I won't judge a guy more highly for how he lives in between fights, some guys find it easier to live that life, I mean can you imagine 20 years without alchohol, any junk food or any kind of luxury? I couldn't do that & I doubt most could, Hopkins became conditioned to do that in prison.

Mosley despite starting his career at a higher weight is smaller than Oscar which is why he finds it easier. Up until he got to Welter, Oscar always looked way too big for his weight class. I'm no De La Hoya fan, but the fact is he did everything the hard way & always gave the sport his best. You're also right, if I as an amateur boxer know my limits then Oscar with all his money & nutritionists should also have known his. I think the problem he may have faced was he was convinced he could make the weight, but once the contract was signed found he couldn't & with $15m or so on the line tried to find ways to cut corners around it, something someone in my position would have thought better of with all that money on the line. Think of the Frankie Gavin situation at last summer's Olympics.

I never said I blamed Pac for that, but I was very critical of that fight on both men's behalf for a long time before that. I felt Pacquiao should fight JMM again or Campbell because Oscar was too old to make the weight effectively (I didn't know HOW ineffective he would be) & that Oscar should fight either Cotto or Margarito at LMW rather than picking on a Lightweight. Now if its at 145, Cotto should be able to make the weight & if he signs its on him, my problem was with figures of 143.

Oh & I do rate Hopkins & Mosley higher than De La Hoya & Cotto, but that's due to their performance in the ring. You can't expect every guy to live like Hopkins & Mayweather do, they need to enjoy life as well. Also that dedication to training can become a problem, as eventually you CAN'T make the weight as Hopkins discovered against Taylor (although I still thought he won both).

Also agree, I think people expect that Cotto will end up like Oscar did, but that won't happen I don't think. Oscar's weight on fight night was probably around 15-20lbs less than it had been on every fight night for the previous 6-7 years. Cotto if he only cuts 2 lbs won't be anywhere near as ineffective. Although even the ODLH debacle is not the worst scenario, sadly in this sport (& I'm not saying this will happen to Cotto) the worst scenario is a guy ending up with brain damage or in a body bag.

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I like this post Jaz and agreed with pretty much everything you said, it seems that even fanboys and haters can learn to get along and live side by side here at Saddos :)