Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Hagler was at the end of his career when he fought Leonard, indeed it was his last ever fight. The contest between Marvin and Ray had been ongoing for many years and was the biggest boxing event in years when it happened. Ray was a huge underdog and the fact that he did so well with his flurries made at least one judge give him the decision by a wide margin. The fight had to be made and made sense in every way.
Mugabi was a more dangerous challenger than McCallum at that time. That was a great fight.
Hagler moving up to light heavyweight is a fantasy fight. Marvin was a small middleweight, the jump up in weight was too big and Spinks far too dangerous. Marvin worked hard to win the title and he was going to maximise his earnings when he held the titles.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
The contest between Marvin and Ray had been ongoing for many years and was the biggest boxing event in years when it happened.
Ray was a huge underdog
The fight had to be made and made sense in every way.
Mugabi was a more dangerous challenger than McCallum at that time. That was a great fight.
Hagler moving up to light heavyweight is a fantasy fight.
Marvin was a small middleweight, the jump up in weight was too big and Spinks far too dangerous.
Marvin worked hard to win the title and he was going to maximise his earnings when he held the titles.
the negotiations had been going on for years & it was a big boxing event when it happened
if ray was a huge underdog as you say then it wasn't really a challenge, more a cash in fight?
the fight didn't have to be made, two sanctioning bodies were against it. it only made sense financially not competitively
i agree that john may have been seen as a more dangerous challenger than mike at the time, as i mentioned to spicoli i revised my timeframe to late eighty six or early eighty seven instead of a ray fight. herol & mike should have been seen as bigger challenges than fighting ray
marvin moving up to light heavyweight is only fantasy because he never did it. it is not a fantasy that other fighters throughout the sports history have moved from middle to light heavyweight
saying marvin was a small middleweight sounds like an excuse. the jump up in weight wasn't too big for others. & saying that michael spinks was far too dangerous confirms my thoughts that marvin took lesser challengers for similar or better money
marvin did work hard for his title & i see nothing wrong with him maximizing his earnings but it also confirms he chose earnings over tougher challenges
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Well all I know is you look up best middleweights of all time... and Hagler makes most lists, if not all. Some have him as top 5... most have him at least top 10.
He was the quintessential warrior... antithetical to some of what we see nowadays (no need for specifics from me).
He never feared anyone... he never ducked anyone for fear of losing or getting knocked out.
If he cashed out in the last fight of his career by facing possible TBE Ray Leonard... hey... all the more power to him.
Back then there was no Facebook... no Instagram... and less unwarranted hype to puff up a fighter's following or cash value.
Back then there were no coddled divas.
I just think that if Hagler had fought that last fight with the fury and intensity he fought Hearns... it would've been a hell of a different fight.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
If he cashed out in the last fight of his career by facing possible TBE Ray Leonard... hey... all the more power to him.
it wasn't just the last fight of his career, from mid eighty three marvin had cleaned out middleweight, instead of looking for the biggest challenge up above he chose to wait on bigger money. nothing wrong with that, marvin had done all he needed to do at middleweight by then, that's why i give him a pass for the last five years of his career. there were bigger challenges out there though. ray might not even be the best of the fab four let alone tbe
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Last 5 years of Hagler's career was not bad. There is no pass required for him.
Only his last ever fight was for the cash than facing more dangerous younger challengers.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Last 5 years of Hagler's career was not bad. There is no pass required for him.
Only his last ever fight was for the cash than facing more dangerous younger challengers.
saying "not bad" sounds like a pass
"only his last ever fight" sounds like a pass
michael spinks would have been more of a challenge than anyone from the roberto fight onwards, marvin could have really moved up as early as completing the vito antuofermo rematch
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
When I wrote not bad, I was being sarcastic, it was very good. :)
If his last fight was a pass then so be it. Every fighter has at least one.
Spinks would have been a challenge but Hagler was a career middleweight. His body of work from Vito onwards I would argue is better than facing Spinks if taken together.
Why give up the title he worked so hard for to give it away. Hagler would not have received any favours from the alphabet boys if he relinquished the middleweight title.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Why the infatuation with Michael Spinks??
I think there's something to be said for those old time (and new ones, too) champions that feel comfortable at one weight their entire careers.
Many fighters move up because they don't have the DISCIPLINE to make weight, so they take the lazy way out. Not saying that's the case of all of them... but some certainly do.
Many great champions of the past stayed at one weight their whole careers. Are we going to criticize them because they didn't jump up in weight to challenge bigger guys??
That is the new way of doing things, I guess. I'm old school.
Maybe it's all this jumping up 2 or 3 divisions looking for a money grab. It's turning boxing more into a circus than I care to think about.
Even the jumping itself.
Used to be guys would move up and GRADUALLY acclimate themselves to the new weight.
Now they not only jump 2 or 3 divisions. Some bozos even seek to drag much heavier champions to some ridiculous catchweight, complete with rehydration clauses.... all for the sake of some bogus claim to another weight division title.
It's all crap, if you ask me.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
When I wrote not bad, I was being sarcastic, it was very good. :)
If his last fight was a pass then so be it. Every fighter has at least one.
Spinks would have been a challenge but Hagler was a career middleweight. His body of work from Vito onwards I would argue is better than facing Spinks if taken together.
Why give up the title he worked so hard for to give it away. Hagler would not have received any favours from the alphabet boys if he relinquished the middleweight title.
oh you were being sarcastic?
so you do give marvin a pass but just for his last fight?
marvin was a career middleweight sounds like an excuse. i said marvin could have really moved up as early as completing the vito antuofermo rematch. so after that rematch i would say his body of work is less than stellar. "His body of work" you are using a false equivalence, tell me one opponent marvin fought from july eighty one onwards that would have been a bigger challenge than michael spinks
why not give up the title & look for bigger challenges? why would marvin need favours if he was moving up to fight michael spinks?
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Why the infatuation with Michael Spinks??
I think there's something to be said for those old time (and new ones, too) champions that feel comfortable at one weight their entire careers.
Many fighters move up because they don't have the DISCIPLINE to make weight, so they take the lazy way out. Not saying that's the case of all of them... but some certainly do.
Many great champions of the past stayed at one weight their whole careers. Are we going to criticize them because they didn't jump up in weight to challenge bigger guys??
That is the new way of doing things, I guess. I'm old school.
Maybe it's all this jumping up 2 or 3 divisions looking for a money grab. It's turning boxing more into a circus than I care to think about.
Even the jumping itself.
Used to be guys would move up and GRADUALLY acclimate themselves to the new weight.
It's all crap, if you ask me.
michael spinks would have been a huge challenge for marvin
i think there's something to be said for those fighters that move up or down for challenges
"Not saying that's the case of all of them" exactly, some move up or down for challenges
many fighters have moved up or down for challenges. no one is criticizing anyone. boxing carries great risks. depending on the circumstances fighters can get a pass for not moving up or down for challenges
moving up or down in weight is not new. it's old school
"Maybe it's all this jumping up 2 or 3 divisions looking for a money grab"
or staying put in a division waiting on smaller guys that will bring bigger purses
"Used to be guys would move up and GRADUALLY acclimate themselves to the new weigh"
that's not how it used to be, there are too many to mention but did ray robinson gradually acclimate to before fighting jake or joey maxim? guys like harry greb, mickey walker, sam langford et cetera
"It's all crap, if you ask me"
all crap? nah moving up or down is common throughout the sports history right up until today
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TitoFan
Why the infatuation with Michael Spinks??
I think there's something to be said for those old time (and new ones, too) champions that feel comfortable at one weight their entire careers.
Many fighters move up because they don't have the DISCIPLINE to make weight, so they take the lazy way out. Not saying that's the case of all of them... but some certainly do.
Many great champions of the past stayed at one weight their whole careers. Are we going to criticize them because they didn't jump up in weight to challenge bigger guys??
That is the new way of doing things, I guess. I'm old school.
Maybe it's all this jumping up 2 or 3 divisions looking for a money grab. It's turning boxing more into a circus than I care to think about.
Even the jumping itself.
Used to be guys would move up and GRADUALLY acclimate themselves to the new weight.
It's all crap, if you ask me.
michael spinks would have been a huge challenge for marvin
i think there's something to be said for those fighters that move up or down for challenges
"Not saying that's the case of all of them" exactly, some move up or down for challenges
many fighters have moved up or down for challenges. no one is criticizing anyone. boxing carries great risks. depending on the circumstances fighters can get a pass for not moving up or down for challenges
moving up or down in weight is not new. it's old school
"Maybe it's all this jumping up 2 or 3 divisions looking for a money grab"
or staying put in a division waiting on smaller guys that will bring bigger purses
"
Used to be guys would move up and GRADUALLY acclimate themselves to the new weigh"
that's not how it used to be, there are too many to mention but did ray robinson gradually acclimate to before fighting jake or joey maxim? guys like harry greb, mickey walker, sam langford et cetera
"It's all crap, if you ask me"
all crap? nah moving up or down is common throughout the sports history right up until today
This is all a matter of opinion and personal preference.
I like fighters who take on all challengers, rather than go chasing trinkets for the sake of trinkets. I like fighters who like fighting on even ground, without weight shenanigans, marinating, or other ways to stack the deck in their favor.
Hagler doesn't need a pass from anyone to be considered one of the greatest middleweights in history.
You don't see the controversy surrounding his career that surrounds the careers of others that will go unnamed for purposes of this discussion.
But again... it's a matter of opinion.
You've clearly stated yours.
I've clearly stated mine.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
When I wrote not bad, I was being sarcastic, it was very good. :)
If his last fight was a pass then so be it. Every fighter has at least one.
Spinks would have been a challenge but Hagler was a career middleweight. His body of work from Vito onwards I would argue is better than facing Spinks if taken together.
Why give up the title he worked so hard for to give it away. Hagler would not have received any favours from the alphabet boys if he relinquished the middleweight title.
oh you were being sarcastic?
so you do give marvin a pass but just for his last fight?
marvin was a career middleweight sounds like an excuse. i said marvin could have really moved up as early as completing the vito antuofermo rematch. so after that rematch i would say his body of work is less than stellar. "His body of work" you are using a false equivalence, tell me one opponent marvin fought from july eighty one onwards that would have been a bigger challenge than michael spinks
why not give up the title & look for bigger challenges? why would marvin need favours if he was moving up to fight michael spinks?
On the flip side I wonder how Spinks would have viewed or been received in facing a career middleweight who had yet to have his highest profile "fab four" fights. And what did Spinks bring in 81. Was that ever a topic with a single writer posing the question or calling for a match or Hagler to leave middle then. Genuine question. Was there ever a demand or market. Assuming Hagler would have gone up after Vito rematch in 81, completely erasing the Hearns, Duran and what is considered a high profile classic war with Mugabi and Leonard. Three HOFs gone just like that. Turns out greats could provide entertaining legendary fights. Duran, Mugabi, Hearns and Leonard were that. Spinks was literally champ for 1 whole month at the time. Who needed who more maybe with Spinks, Hagler was the one making over a million knocking off 3 top ranked challengers even before Duran. My old favorite on any top champion...sweep out the immediate division and challengers. Irony is and I did not "live" it live so could be totally off...but Spinks at times sounds a similar case and was looking for that 'explosion' of household name notoriety. He himself looked to go up specifically for the glory and finally a career purse, and Holmes wasn't exactly looking stellar and running very close with Witherspoon and Williams. Best I can tell that was Spinks very first million-dollar fight of his career.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spicoli
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TIC
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
When I wrote not bad, I was being sarcastic, it was very good. :)
If his last fight was a pass then so be it. Every fighter has at least one.
Spinks would have been a challenge but Hagler was a career middleweight. His body of work from Vito onwards I would argue is better than facing Spinks if taken together.
Why give up the title he worked so hard for to give it away. Hagler would not have received any favours from the alphabet boys if he relinquished the middleweight title.
oh you were being sarcastic?
so you do give marvin a pass but just for his last fight?
marvin was a career middleweight sounds like an excuse. i said marvin could have really moved up as early as completing the vito antuofermo rematch. so after that rematch i would say his body of work is less than stellar. "His body of work" you are using a false equivalence, tell me one opponent marvin fought from july eighty one onwards that would have been a bigger challenge than michael spinks
why not give up the title & look for bigger challenges? why would marvin need favours if he was moving up to fight michael spinks?
On the flip side I wonder how Spinks would have viewed or been received in facing a career middleweight who had yet to have his highest profile "fab four" fights.
And what did Spinks bring in 81.
Was that ever a topic with a single writer posing the question or calling for a match or Hagler to leave middle then. Genuine question.
Was there ever a demand or market.
Assuming Hagler would have gone up after Vito rematch in 81, completely erasing the Hearns, Duran and what is considered a high profile classic war with Mugabi and Leonard. Three HOFs gone just like that. Turns out greats could provide entertaining legendary fights. Duran, Mugabi, Hearns and Leonard were that.
Spinks was literally champ for 1 whole month at the time. Who needed who more maybe with Spinks, Hagler was the one making over a million knocking off 3 top ranked challengers even before Duran.
My old favorite on any top champion...sweep out the immediate division and challengers.
Irony is and I did not "live" it live so could be totally off...but Spinks at times sounds a similar case and was looking for that 'explosion' of household name notoriety. He himself looked to go up specifically for the glory and finally a career purse, and Holmes wasn't exactly looking stellar and running very close with Witherspoon and Williams. Best I can tell that was Spinks very first million-dollar fight of his career.
i guess michael would have been viewed marvin as good money & been received as other fighters have that have fought men coming up
michael had just won the title from eddie a month after marvin's rematch with vito. what michael brought was a bigger challenge than anyone marvin fought from that point on
don't know if it was ever a topic, did marvin ever give any indications of moving up? genuine question
don't know if there was a demand, there was probably a market
michael spinks would have been a bigger challenge than anyone marvin fought after the vito rematch. yes three hall of famers, how would you rate them as all time middleweights?
it doesn't matter how long michael was champ or who needed him. marvin was making good money against lesser challenges than michael would have been
marvin had already cleaned out middleweight after the vito rematch
michael was starting to get boxing covers in eighty two & the buzz for the dwight fight was growing. michael's wife died so that might have played into his moving up for the bigger money as well
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
I can't recall a big push for Hagler to face Spinks at that time. Spinks became a great light heavyweight and it was retrospectively asked as you have done.
The more mouth watering contests for Marvin were against the other 3 kings.
Re: RIP Marvelous Marvin Hagler
Hagler was a relatively small MW. Add in same day weigh-ins and the fact that I don’t think SMW existed, so I doubt there would have been any clamour for him to go to LHW. I think there might have only been 2 governing bodies back then.
In those days , more often than not people proved they were great by wiping out their natural weight division.
Only the real superstars went up the divisions. There wasn’t the capacity to be a multi weight “champion” by picking off lesser champions like they do today.
