Looking back at old controversial fights.... (Updated) Jones vs. Tarver I

Ok, good discussion on Quartey-DLH. We've got some other DLH fights that we can discuss later, but I don't want to do them for a little while because I want to try to space out fights with the same fighters.

I originally wasn't planning on doing the next fight I'm going to list, because I thought the real outcome was clear, but a discussion of it came up in another thread the other day, and it seemed like there were actually one or two people who didn't see it as a robbery, so I decided we should take a look at it and settle the debate. I don't think it's on youtube but I'm sure it's available for download somewhere.

September 10, 1993. Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0, 75 KO) vs. Pernell Whitaker (32-1, 15 KO) for Whitaker's WBC Welterweight Title. This fight was also for the unofficial title of #1 Pound-for-Pound, and was fought in front of the 2nd largest indoor crowd ever at a boxing event.

The three judges scored the fight 115-113 Whitaker, 115-115, 115-115. Majority Draw, Whitaker retained his title.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Whitaker | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 117
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Chavez | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 111

I beleive in the chavez whittaker fight that one of the judges. micky vann took a point of whittaker without the referee instructing him to do so. apparently its not illegal. how about honeygan vaca 1. honeygan lost his title because of an unintentional clash of heads. but WBC rules stated that the boxer who never received the cut loses a point. if it wasnt for this rule honeygan would have retained his title with a draw.

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Originally Posted by SEANIE

I beleive in the chavez whittaker fight that one of the judges. micky vann took a point of whittaker without the referee instructing him to do so. apparently its not illegal. how about honeygan vaca 1. honeygan lost his title because of an unintentional clash of heads. but WBC rules stated that the boxer who never received the cut loses a point. if it wasnt for this rule honeygan would have retained his title with a draw.

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Honeyhan was never the same after that either :-[ - sorry to stray from the thread ;)

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Ok, good discussion on Quartey-DLH. We've got some other DLH fights that we can discuss later, but I don't want to do them for a little while because I want to try to space out fights with the same fighters.

I originally wasn't planning on doing the next fight I'm going to list, because I thought the real outcome was clear, but a discussion of it came up in another thread the other day, and it seemed like there were actually one or two people who didn't see it as a robbery, so I decided we should take a look at it and settle the debate. I don't think it's on youtube but I'm sure it's available for download somewhere.

September 10, 1993. Julio Cesar Chavez (87-0, 75 KO) vs. Pernell Whitaker (32-1, 15 KO) for Whitaker's WBC Welterweight Title. This fight was also for the unofficial title of #1 Pound-for-Pound, and was fought in front of the 2nd largest indoor crowd ever at a boxing event.

The three judges scored the fight 115-113 Whitaker, 115-115, 115-115. Majority Draw, Whitaker retained his title.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Whitaker | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 117
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Chavez | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 111

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cc sweetpea ill do my card soon

rd1 10-10 even
rd2 chavez 10-9
rd3 whitaker 10-9
rd4 whitaker 10-9
rd5 chavez 10-9
rd6 whitaker 10-9
rd7 whitaker 10-9
rd8 whitaker 10-9
rd9 chavez 10-9
rd10 whitaker 10-9
rd11 whitaker 10-9
rd12 chavez 10-9

116 whitaker 113 chavez first 6 rounds were quite close but after that i think whitaker won most of rounds and definetly derserved the nod i give chavez the 12th round because even though it was close chavez was bit more aggressive so being bit fair to chavez i give him 12 th round i was fair to both fighters but no way in hell should chavez got a draw

There is nothing contraversial about this fight aside from the blatant robbery. I may go back and watch this again but I have seen it many times and maybe it's simply my taste, but I saw no possible way to give Chavez more than 2 rounds. I believe the 2nd and maybe the 12th. Whittaker dominated some rounds so badly it was tempting to score them 10-8 even though he never hurt Chavez. But anyways my score was 118-110. It was a complete robbery any way anyone could slice it.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

There is nothing contraversial about this fight aside from the blatant robbery. I may go back and watch this again but I have seen it many times and maybe it's simply my taste, but I saw no possible way to give Chavez more than 2 rounds. I believe the 2nd and maybe the 12th. Whittaker dominated some rounds so badly it was tempting to score them 10-8 even though he never hurt Chavez. But anyways my score was 118-110. It was a complete robbery any way anyone could slice it.

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I agree, we should not even waste our time scoring this fight.

Julio C. Chavez vs. Pernell Whitaker

[youtube=425,350]N9b3n19DzR4[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]wJGnbXppMMY[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]n87pdR22MBU[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]CeNC9YRVxN0[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]xbuXuXqP0e0[/youtube]

[youtube=425,350]2_ddCvBOU0I[/youtube]

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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I was saying for you to post the fight and then making my opinion that chavez got dominated. You understood that right ???

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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I was saying for you to post the fight and then making my opinion that chavez got dominated. You understood that right ???

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You do realise the 'but' part in your comment insinuates that I was posting the fight because I think JCC won.
When you use the word 'but' it's a continues word that follows with another statement to implement the previous one.

Anyway!!!
I see Violent Demise scored rd. 1 even, come on VD. That was no even rds. JCC landed the harder punches and pushed Pernell back through the rd. Pernell got in some really good jabs and moved well but JCC lande harder cleaner shots....

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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I was saying for you to post the fight and then making my opinion that chavez got dominated. You understood that right ???

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You do realise the 'but' part in your comment insinuates that I was posting the fight because I think JCC won.
When you use the word 'but' it's a continues word that follows with another statement to implement the previous one.

Anyway!!!
I see Violent Demise scored rd. 1 even, come on VD. That was no even rds. JCC landed the harder punches and pushed Pernell back through the rd. Pernell got in some really good jabs and moved well but JCC lande harder cleaner shots....

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would it have made you feel better if I said 'but anyway' instead of 'but' ???

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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I was saying for you to post the fight and then making my opinion that chavez got dominated. You understood that right ???

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You do realise the 'but' part in your comment insinuates that I was posting the fight because I think JCC won.
When you use the word 'but' it's a continues word that follows with another statement to implement the previous one.

Anyway!!!
I see Violent Demise scored rd. 1 even, come on VD. That was no even rds. JCC landed the harder punches and pushed Pernell back through the rd. Pernell got in some really good jabs and moved well but JCC lande harder cleaner shots....

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would it have made you feel better if I said 'but anyway' instead of 'but' ???

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So you do understand....
I knew you would. ;)

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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I was saying for you to post the fight and then making my opinion that chavez got dominated. You understood that right ???

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You do realise the 'but' part in your comment insinuates that I was posting the fight because I think JCC won.
When you use the word 'but' it's a continues word that follows with another statement to implement the previous one.

Anyway!!!
I see Violent Demise scored rd. 1 even, come on VD. That was no even rds. JCC landed the harder punches and pushed Pernell back through the rd. Pernell got in some really good jabs and moved well but JCC lande harder cleaner shots....

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would it have made you feel better if I said 'but anyway' instead of 'but' ???

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So you do understand....
I knew you would. ;)

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of course I understand. I just delay it to up your post count :)

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

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Originally Posted by Starr

Post the fight but Chavez got dominated

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My love, I posted the fight for those who would like to contribute to the thread and don't have the fight or have it but would make it easier to view the fight in the thread as you can type your rd. by rd. as your watching the fight.

But you knew that those were my intentions right? :)

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I was saying for you to post the fight and then making my opinion that chavez got dominated. You understood that right ???

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You do realise the 'but' part in your comment insinuates that I was posting the fight because I think JCC won.
When you use the word 'but' it's a continues word that follows with another statement to implement the previous one.

Anyway!!!
I see Violent Demise scored rd. 1 even, come on VD. That was no even rds. JCC landed the harder punches and pushed Pernell back through the rd. Pernell got in some really good jabs and moved well but JCC lande harder cleaner shots....

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would it have made you feel better if I said 'but anyway' instead of 'but' ???

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So you do understand....
I knew you would. ;)

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of course I understand. I just delay it to up your post count :)

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Thanks and I know what you meant from the begining. I just wanted to up you cool click count.

CC#1132 for you.....

clicked you back

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Originally Posted by brazilianbomber

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Originally Posted by p4pking

There is nothing contraversial about this fight aside from the blatant robbery. I may go back and watch this again but I have seen it many times and maybe it's simply my taste, but I saw no possible way to give Chavez more than 2 rounds. I believe the 2nd and maybe the 12th. Whittaker dominated some rounds so badly it was tempting to score them 10-8 even though he never hurt Chavez. But anyways my score was 118-110. It was a complete robbery any way anyone could slice it.

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I agree, we should not even waste our time scoring this fight.

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Agreed. The decision was a disgrace.

think were pretty much agreed here whitaker was robbed whats next fight sweetpea

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

Julio C. Chavez vs. Pernell Whitaker

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:coolclick: #1074 excellent work Mick! O0

Whitaker -vs- Chavez

Round 01- Chavez
Round 02- Chavez
Round 03- Whitaker
Round 04- Whitaker
Round 05- Chavez
Round 06- Whitaker
Round 07- Whitaker
Round 08- Whitaker
Round 09- Whitaker
Round 10- Whitaker
Round 11- Whitaker
Round 12- Chavez

Score
Whitaker 116
JCC 112 O0

117-111 Sweet Pea.

Chavez winning rounds 1,2 and 12, Whitaker the rest. Quite a few rounds were close though and could have gone either way. Under any interpretation though, its hard to see Chavez deserving a draw.

July 16, 2005. Bernard Hopkins (46-2-1, 32 KO) vs. Jermain Taylor (23-0, 17 KO) for Hopkins' Undisputed Middleweight Title. This was Hopkins' 21st defense of his title.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Taylor | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 115
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Hopkins| 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10| 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10| 114

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

July 16, 2005. Bernard Hopkins (46-2-1, 32 KO) vs. Jermain Taylor (23-0, 17 KO) for Hopkins' Undisputed Middleweight Title. This was Hopkins' 21st defense of his title.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Taylor | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 115
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Hopkins| 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10| 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10| 114

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never seen this fight ill download it later and tell you my score tommorow

On first viewing I had it a draw, but when I rewatched it recently I had Taylor taking it by a point.

115-114. Taylor taking rounds 1,2,4,6,7 and 8. Hopkins taking rounds 5,9,10,11 and 12. I had round 3 even. A case can be made for Hopkins winning the third, in which case, its a draw on my card.

Thought this fight could have gone either way, depending on what a judge was looking for. I dont consider this a controversy since the fight was very close either fighter could have won or it could have been a draw. Mistakes were made by both fighters, Hopkins got going to late and Taylor spent to much energy in the first few rounds.

The controversy is Taylor getting the 12th round and costing Hopkins a draw.

Wouldn't it have actually have had to have been a fight to qualify for this thread? ;)

No offence intended as i personally think this thread theme is quality but this er fight was a f*cking joke and a disgrace to the fight game.

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Originally Posted by Majesty

The controversy is Taylor getting the 12th round and costing Hopkins a draw.

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There was no contraversy about that, that was an out right robbery!

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Taylor | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 115
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Hopkins| 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 113

What this fight proved was Hopkins had the beating of Taylor who tired badly late on , but didnt get work early enough .Taylor was fired up at the start and wouldnt let B-hop get away with anything . A right hand that brushed over the top of Nards head causing him to lose his balance could have been a knockdown if the ropes werent there . Around the 9th round Bernard started to realise his right hand was working for him . Taylor would normally answer every advance with a flurry of his own but late on he was very disorganised and uncomfortable . Nard really owned him towards the end and I felt got the better of him but on my scorecard Taylor deserved the nod .

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Originally Posted by GAME

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Taylor | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 115
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Hopkins| 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 113

What this fight proved was Hopkins had the beating of Taylor who tired badly late on , but didnt get work early enough .Taylor was fired up at the start and wouldnt let B-hop get away with anything . A right hand that brushed over the top of Nards head causing him to lose his balance could have been a knockdown if the ropes werent there . Around the 9th round Bernard started to realise his right hand was working for him . Taylor would normally answer every advance with a flurry of his own but late on he was very disorganised and uncomfortable . Nard really owned him towards the end and I felt got the better of him but on my scorecard Taylor deserved the nod .

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Can't remember my exact RBR card, but pretty sure it is the same as yours - The fight was there for Hopkins to win and the rounds he did win, he won clearly, but the nature of the scoring system still allowed Taylor to steal rounds and win more rounds.

When I watched this fight a few days ago, it was the first time I had seen it since I watched it live on PPV. My memory of the fight was always that Hopkins dominated the last 4 rounds, and that Taylor was really just trying to hang on and make it to the finish line.
I was surprised when I watched it again, that Hopkins only really dominated the 10th and 11th. I thought he won the 9th and 12th as well, but not by that large a margin.

rd1 taylor 10-9
rd2 taylor 10-9
rd3 taylor 10-9
rd4 taylor 10-9
rd5 hopkins 10-9
rd6 taylor 10-9
rd7 taylor 10-9
rd8 taylor 10-9
rd9 hopkins 10-9
rd10 hopkins 10-9
rd11 hopkins 10-9
rd12 hopkins 10-9

taylor won all early rounds he was outlanding hopkins he was aggressor and he was 7 rounds to 1 up on my card and hopkins easily won last 4 rounds to make it 7 rounds to 5 in favour of taylor i think best hopkins could of done was draw i was trying giving hopkins a round to try and be fair to both fighters in first 8 rounds only one i give him was 5 th it was so hard to even give hopkins a round in early going because hopkins was only averaging 17 punches thrown each round and was hardly doing anything taylor was aggressor and was outlanding him and i think hopkins left it too late anyway my final totals

115 jermanin taylor 113 bernard hopkins

I wish I could have found my round by round for this fight. It was the first one I ever did. It was also my first post on here but the crash took it away...Damn. I've been wanting to get in on this, I had a huge round by round done on Barrera - Morales 1 but I lost it when my computer crashed >:mad Then I gave up hope. CC SP. Really mad I haven't been in on this so far. But I did find my scorecard for this fight.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Taylor | 10| 10 |10 | 10| 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 113
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Hopkins| 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10| 10|10 | 115

Originally I scored the 12th round a draw just like one of the judges. Not really sure why. I thought the only real swing round in the fight was round 7, a round that I gave to Hopkins but could easily have been given to Taylor. Hopkins has no one to blame but himself for not getting the decision though. He gave the fight away by not getting going til round 7. I really like the thread though. I just wish I had more of the fights on the comp. Not a whole lot of fights I have go to th

Round 01- Taylor
Round 02- Taylor
Round 03- Taylor
Round 04- Taylor
Round 05- Hopkins
Round 06- Taylor
Round 07- Taylor
Round 08- Taylor
Round 09- Hopkins
Round 10- Hopkins
Round 11- Hopkins
Round 12- Hopkins

Score
Hopkins 113
Taylor 115

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Originally Posted by amat

I wish I could have found my round by round for this fight. It was the first one I ever did. It was also my first post on here but the crash took it away...Damn. I've been wanting to get in on this, I had a huge round by round done on Barrera - Morales 1 but I lost it when my computer crashed >:mad Then I gave up hope. CC SP. Really mad I haven't been in on this so far. But I did find my scorecard for this fight.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Taylor | 10| 10 |10 | 10| 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 113
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Hopkins| 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10| 10|10 | 115

Originally I scored the 12th round a draw just like one of the judges. Not really sure why. I thought the only real swing round in the fight was round 7, a round that I gave to Hopkins but could easily have been given to Taylor. Hopkins has no one to blame but himself for not getting the decision though. He gave the fight away by not getting going til round 7. I really like the thread though. I just wish I had more of the fights on the comp. Not a whole lot of fights I have go to th

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CC, quality post, good to have you as part of the thread. If you want, shoot me a message with the fights you have scored or have on your computer, and I'll try to make a point to pick one of them if possible.

I had it 115-113 for Taylor like the posters above... Hopkins had the tools to win that fight IMO, he just started way too late.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I had it 115-113 for Taylor like the posters above... Hopkins had the tools to win that fight IMO, he just started way too late.

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:coolclick: #9 I agree with you O0

Round 01- Taylor
Round 02- Taylor
Round 03- Taylor
Round 04- Hopkins
Round 05- Hopkins
Round 06- Taylor
Round 07- Taylor
Round 08- Hopkins
Round 09- Hopkins
Round 10- Hopkins
Round 11- Hopkins
Round 12- Hopkins

115-113 Hopkins

Bernard sucker punched me in the streets of philly in 1984. I want my rematch. He knows who i am.