Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
The only Middleweight Clazaghe couldnt beat is Roy Jones Junior,who was superman. Other than Jones,JC gives most of the rest a battering. As for the other names,JC would absolutely WRECK Winky and JT and would beat Pavlik imo(although Kelly is a dangerous task for anyone!)
Other than Jones,JC gives most of the rest a battering.
Totally disagree.
Prime Toney was excellent fighter and would beat Calzaghe imo he has excellent defense and great technical skills.
Gerald has good straight right hand the kind of punch Calzaghe gets caught often with and Gerald is a hell of a puncher and has granite chin and starts in a hurry he could take Calzaghe early but it goes two ways Gerald early or Joe late.
Collins would rough up Calzaghe and Collins has excellent chin but i think Calzaghe would beat Collins by clear cut UD.
Benn in his prime is handful for anyone he could spark Calzaghe at anytime but i think Calzaghe stops Benn late on.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Hey give Kessler sometime he might achieve the level of tony i do not see any one but cal beating him.
No he won't.
Toney has beaten.
Mike McCallum x2
Doug DeWitt
Michael Nunn
Reggie Johnson
Iran Barkley
Prince Charles Williams
Vassiliy Jirov
Evander Holyfield
And has won World titles at.
Middleweight
Supermiddleweight
Cruiserweight
And would of won Heavyweight.
Fighters like Toney don't come around often no way Kessler will achieve anywhere near what Toney has achieved.
Sorry Ice, but at this point I think James Toney has discredited his own dubious legacy with his repeated steroid abuse, and we have only found out about it the times he has been caught. I don't care if he was Muhammad Ali, if he was caught using drugs later in his career where drugs testing has developed, how do we know he didn't use it throughout his career. Someone who has such a liberal attitude towards cheating should certainly not be counted amongst the greats of the sport.
And more, I don't think that the names that you put forward are that much more impressive than Kessler's resume. Doug DeWitt was on a downturn in his career when Toney finished it. Charles Williams was 42. Holyfield was 40, and most of those had taken beatings from other before. Good of you to edit your list as well, to improve accuracy.
I don't like Toney, I admit it, and his constant drug abuse doesn't endear him to me either, but I don't see any reason why Kessler can't win two-weight titles, although I doubt he'd let himself get fat and just fight in cruiserweight and heavyweight divisions. Toney didn't win titles there because he wanted to, he was a fantastic boxer who was too lazy to make the weight.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
James Toney was a fantastic latent talent who REALLY could fight. Unfortunately, he is lazy and is not a committed or dedicated talent. Who knows how good he might really have been, but to extrapolate maybe's and what if's is not fair. At the end of the day, the professional, dedicated ultra-pro that is Calzaghe would have beaten lazy James up. At any weight.
"If you take two fighters with equal skills and equal training, then the fighter with greater will, with greater desire, will inevitably win" (Cus D'Amato).
That's why Calzaghe would beat Toney - not because he's a better fighter, not because he is a harder puncher, not because he is better defensively ...... but because he would enter the ring in peak condition (and we all know that Joe has pulled out of fights claiming injuries etc and we have criticised him for it. But..... Joe Calzaghe has never entered a boxing ring underprepared in his life) James is lazy, he lets his weight go, he looks for short cuts with steroids, he lays on the ropes. I quite like him for it because he's a throwback to the 18th centure bareknuckle fighters, but it counts aginast him as a professional athlete in the 21st Century.
Equally, we see great revisionism with poor Gerald McClellan. The guy was good, he had a good punch and a good media image. But, we should not forget that his best victories were aginst the ghosts of washed up Mugabi and Jackson. He moved up a weight, hyped beyond belief and was badly hurt. He couldn't keep Benn down, and we know Benn was vulnerable.
That is all. End if drunken rant.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Oh lord....
Sorry to jump in here late but i just feel like dropping a few opinions here.
Nigel Benn....has himself admitted he feels Calzaghe was better than he, Eubank or Collins.
Steve Collins.....I'm Irish an still i can see that Collins was a technically poor fighter who would have eaten everything Joe threw.
Gerald McClellan....One of my favourite fighters...Unfortunately he's one of the sports eternal enigmas like Salvador Sanchez, how far he could have gone we'll never no, but on what i saw Joe SD
James Toney...A marvellous fighter, but he relied on getting in close against Taller fighters. Joe is a master at preventing this and for me Joe grinds out a SD again.
Roy Jones.... Prime for prime I don't feel the need to comment on this. But a slightly faded Roy would have been beaten that shows how highly i think of Joe
For me Joe also beats the Super Middle versions of Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard who met for the controversial draw fight...Joe was too complex for these fighters at that time.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Hey give Kessler sometime he might achieve the level of tony i do not see any one but cal beating him.
No he won't.
Toney has beaten.
Mike McCallum x2
Doug DeWitt
Michael Nunn
Reggie Johnson
Iran Barkley
Prince Charles Williams
Vassiliy Jirov
Evander Holyfield
And has won World titles at.
Middleweight
Supermiddleweight
Cruiserweight
And would of won Heavyweight.
Fighters like Toney don't come around often no way Kessler will achieve anywhere near what Toney has achieved.
Sorry Ice, but at this point I think James Toney has discredited his own dubious legacy with his repeated steroid abuse, and we have only found out about it the times he has been caught. I don't care if he was Muhammad Ali, if he was caught using drugs later in his career where drugs testing has developed, how do we know he didn't use it throughout his career. Someone who has such a liberal attitude towards cheating should certainly not be counted amongst the greats of the sport.
And more, I don't think that the names that you put forward are that much more impressive than Kessler's resume. Doug DeWitt was on a downturn in his career when Toney finished it. Charles Williams was 42. Holyfield was 40, and most of those had taken beatings from other before. Good of you to edit your list as well, to improve accuracy.
I don't like Toney, I admit it, and his constant drug abuse doesn't endear him to me either, but I don't see any reason why Kessler can't win two-weight titles, although I doubt he'd let himself get fat and just fight in cruiserweight and heavyweight divisions. Toney didn't win titles there because he wanted to, he was a fantastic boxer who was too lazy to make the weight.
:coolclick: in another 24. Very well stated. :appl:
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
Would he have beaten a peak Roy Jones at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak James Toney at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Gerald McClellan at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Steve Collins at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Nigel Benn at super middle ?
I doubt it he would have beaten any of them, certainly not the 1st three. How good is he ? I still don't think he's that great, good, but not great. He beat Kessler (over rated) Lacy (over rated). For me he needs to beat one of Pavlik, Taylor, Hopkins or Winky Wright
He never really beaten a really BADDDDD fighter IMO. A real marquee fighter.
MCCELLANS SUPERMIDDLE RECORD 1 fight 1 loss
he would ave battered toney. toney was fat and unproffessional
as for eubank and collins. collins was a good middleweight who beat eubank who was boxing every 6-8 weeks. calzaghe would have beaten a peak eubank. a inexperienced calzaghe beat him so a peak calzaghe would destroy. and as for jones. overated.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Oh lord....
Sorry to jump in here late but i just feel like dropping a few opinions here.
Nigel Benn....has himself admitted he feels Calzaghe was better than he, Eubank or Collins.
Steve Collins.....I'm Irish an still i can see that Collins was a technically poor fighter who would have eaten everything Joe threw.
Gerald McClellan....One of my favourite fighters...Unfortunately he's one of the sports eternal enigmas like Salvador Sanchez, how far he could have gone we'll never no, but on what i saw Joe SD
James Toney...A marvellous fighter, but he relied on getting in close against Taller fighters. Joe is a master at preventing this and for me Joe grinds out a SD again.
Roy Jones.... Prime for prime I don't feel the need to comment on this. But a slightly faded Roy would have been beaten that shows how highly i think of Joe
For me Joe also beats the Super Middle versions of Tommy Hearns and Ray Leonard who met for the controversial draw fight...Joe was too complex for these fighters at that time.
Part I agree,part I disagree
Toney's a total enigma,A)He's too lazy to stay at a proper weight for his size,B)Every time you think he's put it together he comes up dirty on the pi$$ test
Leanord and Hearns would have flat out torched him
Sugar,because its the same stock and trade,but Ray was just better at it,and a better counter puncher
Hearns,just because of sheer punching power
Joe is a great worker out there,great at it,but nobody is losing any sleep over his power
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
Would he have beaten a peak Roy Jones at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak James Toney at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Gerald McClellan at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Steve Collins at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Nigel Benn at super middle ?
I doubt it he would have beaten any of them, certainly not the 1st three. How good is he ? I still don't think he's that great, good, but not great. He beat Kessler (over rated) Lacy (over rated). For me he needs to beat one of Pavlik, Taylor, Hopkins or Winky Wright
He never really beaten a really BADDDDD fighter IMO. A real marquee fighter.
:sadclick: for you. In fact...everytime I read this it's another one for you. Totally biased head case. I think "nutter" is what me bwoyo's call that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIE
MCCELLANS SUPERMIDDLE RECORD 1 fight 1 loss
he would ave battered toney. toney was fat and unproffessional
as for eubank and collins. collins was a good middleweight who beat eubank who was boxing every 6-8 weeks. calzaghe would have beaten a peak eubank. a inexperienced calzaghe beat him so a peak calzaghe would destroy. and as for jones. overated.
Over rated is such a shakey term to use...but :coolclick: for everything in the post outside of calling Jones over rated.
IWHO, you can't over rate what Jones accomplished overall...especially at 175lbs.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wacko3205
Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
Would he have beaten a peak Roy Jones at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak James Toney at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Gerald McClellan at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Steve Collins at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Nigel Benn at super middle ?
I doubt it he would have beaten any of them, certainly not the 1st three. How good is he ? I still don't think he's that great, good, but not great. He beat Kessler (over rated) Lacy (over rated). For me he needs to beat one of Pavlik, Taylor, Hopkins or Winky Wright
He never really beaten a really BADDDDD fighter IMO. A real marquee fighter.
:sadclick: for you. In fact...everytime I read this it's another one for you. Totally biased head case. I think "nutter" is what me bwoyo's call that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIE
MCCELLANS SUPERMIDDLE RECORD 1 fight 1 loss
he would ave battered toney. toney was fat and unproffessional
as for eubank and collins. collins was a good middleweight who beat eubank who was boxing every 6-8 weeks. calzaghe would have beaten a peak eubank. a inexperienced calzaghe beat him so a peak calzaghe would destroy. and as for jones. overated.
Over rated is such a shakey term to use...but :coolclick: for everything in the post outside of calling Jones over rated.
IWHO, you can't over rate what Jones accomplished overall...especially at 175lbs.
jones never boxed michazeski. he won titles that michazeski gave up.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIE
Quote:
Originally Posted by wacko3205
Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200
Would he have beaten a peak Roy Jones at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak James Toney at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Gerald McClellan at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Steve Collins at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Nigel Benn at super middle ?
I doubt it he would have beaten any of them, certainly not the 1st three. How good is he ? I still don't think he's that great, good, but not great. He beat Kessler (over rated) Lacy (over rated). For me he needs to beat one of Pavlik, Taylor, Hopkins or Winky Wright
He never really beaten a really BADDDDD fighter IMO. A real marquee fighter.
:sadclick: for you. In fact...everytime I read this it's another one for you. Totally biased head case. I think "nutter" is what me bwoyo's call that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEANIE
MCCELLANS SUPERMIDDLE RECORD 1 fight 1 loss
he would ave battered toney. toney was fat and unproffessional
as for eubank and collins. collins was a good middleweight who beat eubank who was boxing every 6-8 weeks. calzaghe would have beaten a peak eubank. a inexperienced calzaghe beat him so a peak calzaghe would destroy. and as for jones. overated.
Over rated is such a shakey term to use...but :coolclick: for everything in the post outside of calling Jones over rated.
IWHO, you can't over rate what Jones accomplished overall...especially at 175lbs.
jones never boxed michazeski. he won titles that michazeski gave up.
Thats because Dariusz Michalczewski only wanted to fight Jones in Germany he didn't want to come to USA its his own fault.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
PLease though,give Joe his credit,we all know my opinion of the decision,but Joe did everything he needed to do to win,and Kessler didnt.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Well now he's beat hopkins what do you think ok not the greatest boxing displays but a win none the less. I think joe could have beat any of these boxers in there prime or not, OK when you talk about jones in his prime it's close but i think jones was flawed and fighting against great fighters like joe in there primes (IRRELATIVE OF TIME) was jones to wild and unschooled or was joe to suseptible to the right hand. what ever it was joe oftered jones out when he had his belts but jones denied later some years on jones admitted to the press when joe asked for that fight ( I HAD TO MUCH TO LOOSE AND HE HAD TO MUCH TO GAIN) If thhats not ducking i dont know what is.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
denilson200
Would he have beaten a peak Roy Jones at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak James Toney at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Gerald McClellan at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Steve Collins at super middle ?
Would he have beaten a peak Nigel Benn at super middle ?
I doubt it he would have beaten any of them, certainly not the 1st three. How good is he ? I still don't think he's that great, good, but not great. He beat Kessler (over rated) Lacy (over rated). For me he needs to beat one of Pavlik, Taylor, Hopkins or Winky Wright
He never really beaten a really BADDDDD fighter IMO. A real marquee fighter.
I dont think he would beat a peak Chris Eubank
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
I gotta disagree I feel the only one who would have given him a big problem is Roy Jones, Toney not so much a devastating counter-puncher absolutely but I would feel Joe would do exactly what he did to B-Hop a high workrate and good in and out movement. You do have to take into consideration that the Joe Calzaghe we are seeing now is older,I feel the prime Calzaghe came when he fought Lacy and on that night he could have beaten any fighter in the supermiddleweight division past or present.
Re: To me Calzaghe still ain't that good.
For whatever reason..no one has come along yet to prove he isn't. Saying an undeafeted champ of over 10 years isn't that good is kinda crazy. Some may not like him, his style, who he has or hasn't fought, but if he isn't good sitting where he sits in the sport and in life then i hate to hear what you think of all the people sitting below him, and those he's beaten. I don't necessarily like the guy and think he has almost no chance of beating pavlik but the guy could get his head completly knocked off and that doesn't take away from what he's managed to do.
