Looking back at old controversial fights.... (Updated) Jones vs. Tarver I

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Originally Posted by spekterscript

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total

Whitaker | 10 | 9 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 114
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Oscar | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 8 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 112

Of all the fights I've tried to score over the last couple years, I think this fight is the toughest. There are just so many close rounds where neither guy lands any major punches. I change my mind all the time about the 4th and 10th rounds. You could score them both for Oscar, split them, or have them both for Whitaker. I've watched this fight several times over the years, and sometimes I think Whitaker won, and sometimes I have it a draw.

I don't think it's a robbery that De La Hoya won. I think the problem I have, like most people, is that there's no way the fight was the way the judges scored it. There's no way a judge could watch that fight and score it 9 rounds to 3, which is how two of the judges had it. That's a really bad scorecard. If DLH had won by one point on a split decision, I don't think there would have been as much controversy. But because the scores were so lopsided, you wonder if the judges were even paying attention.
Also, I think a lot of the controversy had to do with the fact that people who scored it for Whitaker thought that this was the THIRD time in his career that he got robbed in a title fight. If Whitaker hadn't gotten robbed against Ramirez and Chavez, I doubt there would have been as much complaining. But since he got robbed those two times, losing a close fight to DLH stung even more.

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Well said. Agreed. The same can be said for the first 2 losses of ODLH. The saddest irony is the ODLH fight against Tito looked very similar to the SweetPea and ODLH fight. I suppose judges in Vegas give rounds to the aggressor...whether he/she is an effective aggressor or not. Anyways CC for the insight and profound words.

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That would be a good fight to do in the future ODLH -vs.- Trinidad

Oscar lost those last rounds vs. Tito because he was backing up and doing nada ! simply running.. ( anyone that goes out intentionally gives the last few rounds away in a championship bout is in big troubles) ! its makes a horrible impression.. I believe that was the worst advise I ever heard coming from Gil Clancy ( Oscar’s trainer at that time ) .

A couple other points:
I'm not that disappointed that there was never a rematch. I think if they fought a second time, DLH would have won again. It would have been very close again, but I think DLH would've done better the second time around.
DLH would've been older and more experienced in a second fight, and would have been more prepared for all of Whitaker's tricks.
Whitaker would've been older, but in a bad way, and his personal problems would have taken more out of him in the time in between fights.
I do think Whitaker would've clearly beaten DLH if they fought in their primes, he would've just been too fast and too good for Oscar. And that's not meant to put down Oscar. You could count on one hand the fighters who could beat a prime Whitaker at 135 or 147.

And the last thing, is that if Whitaker was going to lose by a controversial decision, I'm glad he lost to someone like DLH, who's a great champion too. It would have been a lot worse if Whitaker lost his belt on a bad decision against some journeyman. At least he lost it to a rising star who went on to fight all the other great welterweights like Quartey, Tito, Mosley, etc.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

A couple other points:
I'm not that disappointed that there was never a rematch. I think if they fought a second time, DLH would have won again. It would have been very close again, but I think DLH would've done better the second time around.
DLH would've been older and more experienced in a second fight, and would have been more prepared for all of Whitaker's tricks.
Whitaker would've been older, but in a bad way, and his personal problems would have taken more out of him in the time in between fights.
I do think Whitaker would've clearly beaten DLH if they fought in their primes, he would've just been too fast and too good for Oscar. And that's not meant to put down Oscar. You could count on one hand the fighters who could beat a prime Whitaker at 135 or 147.

And the last thing, is that if Whitaker was going to lose by a controversial decision, I'm glad he lost to someone like DLH, who's a great champion too. It would have been a lot worse if Whitaker lost his belt on a bad decision against some journeyman. At least he lost it to a rising star who went on to fight all the other great welterweights like Quartey, Tito, Mosley, etc.

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Agreed 100% on all counts ! excellent read ! Cool Click in 24 my brother ! O0

i gotta download this fight so gimme while and ill tell you my scorecard tommorow

Wow sweetpea..Props on getting your topic pinned..
I'll have to stick a few cards up on here from time to time..
CC Peace

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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

De La Hoya rds: 2,3,6,7,8,10 & 12 = 114

Whitaker rds: 1,4,5,9,11 = 112

*1 point deducted for Pernell in rd. 3 a 10-8 rd for ODLH.
**1 point deducted for ODLH in rd. 9 a 10-8 rd for Pernell.

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Exactly the same score as me bruv (see previous page ) ;)

Round 1-Whitaker
Round 2-De La Hoya
Round 3-De La Hoya
Round 4-Whitaker
Round 5-De La Hoya
Round 6-De La Hoya
Round 7-Tie
Round 8-De La Hoya
Round 9-Whitaker
Round 10-De La Hoya
Round 11-Whitaker
Round 12-De La Hoya

115-112 De La Hoya

I favor neither fighter. I like them both. I think Whitaker put on a great defensive performance making Oscar miss as much as he did. But Whitaker was just horrible offensively. That knock down was not a knock down. Anybody can see that It's hard for me to give this fight to Whitaker as much as I like him. Whitaker should of gotten the win in both his fights against Chavez and Ramirez. Both he should of took a loss in both his fights against Wilfredo Rivera. People seem to forget that when they scream Whitaker was robbed.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Both he should of took a loss in both his fights against Wilfredo Rivera. People seem to forget that when they scream Whitaker was robbed.

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Whitaker-Rivera I is going to get looked at in this thread at some point soon. A couple people have suggested it.
I actually thought that Whitaker narrowly won the first fight and then won again in easier fashion in the second fight.
I thought Whitaker was really 44-0 when he fought Trinidad and got his first obvious defeat.
But we'll get a chance to look at the Rivera fights down the road.

Seem to have missed this thread thus far but a CC to SweetPea for a cracking idea

rd1 whitaker 10-9
rd2 oscar 10-9
rd3 oscar 10-8
rd4 oscar 10-9
rd5 whitaker 10-9
rd6 oscar 10-9
rd7 this round was razor thin i just give it to whitaker 10-9
rd8 oscar 10-9
rd9 whitaker 10-8
rd10 whitaker 10-9 oscar done flurry at end but i still think whitaker done enough for this round
rd11 whitaker 10-9
rd12 oscar 10-9

114= whitaker 114= oscar DRAW 8) i think it should of been draw it was too close to call so many close rounds i think draw would of been fair if i watched this tommorow id prolly change my mind thats what kind of fight it is

Whitaker-Chavez should be looked at.

Id happily put my scorecard to that on here.

Just to show everyone how robbed Pernell was.

I am ready for another one ! O0

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total

Whitaker | 10 | 9 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 114
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Oscar | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 8 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 112

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Nice card. Mirrors mine, but I had round 7 even, making it 114-113 Pea.

I think rounds 4,7 and 10 are the most debateable in the fight.

BTW, check out this clip where it shows Oscar's flurry in round 10 from a different angle than the one shown in the fight. It's incredible how Pea contorts himself to make Oscar miss just about every shot he throws. Seeing that that flurry was pretty ineffectual, i think Whitaker takes round 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atONMjfkxso

Good discussion on Whitaker-De La Hoya. We will definitely see both of those guys in this thread again in other fights at a later date.

Next fight:

April 6, 1987. Marvin Hagler (62-2-2, 52 KO) vs. Sugar Ray Leonard (33-1, 24 KO) for Hagler's Middleweight Title.

Leonard was fighting for the first time in 3 years and for the first time ever at middlweight. All his previous fights were at 147 or 154.
Halger had not been defeated in over a decade, over a span of 37 fights, and had reigned as the champ at 160 for 7 years. Hagler was a 3-to-1 favorite going into the fight.

The judges' scorecards were 118-110 Leonard, 115-113 Hagler and 115-113 Leonard.
Leonard won by SD. Hagler would never fight again.

I've never watched this fight, so I am interested to see how it goes.

Loving this thread - CC Sweetpea

Here is how I had it


Leonard 10 ROUND1 Hagler 9
Leonard 10 ROUND2 Hagler 9
Leonard 10 ROUND3 Hagler 9
Leonard 10 ROUND4 Hagler 9
Hagler 10 ROUND5 Leonard 9
Leonard 10 ROUND6 Hagler 9
Hagler 10 ROUND7 Leonard 9
Hagler 10 ROUND8 Leonard 9
Hagler 10 ROUND9 Leonard 9
EVEN 10 ROUND10 EVEN 10
Leonard 10 ROUND11 Hagler 9
Hagler 10 ROUND12 Leonard 9



Leonard 115- 114 Hagler


Could've quite easily gone to Hagler or been a draw - can't see how so many people think Hagler was robbed though, it was asclose as you can get imo. One judge had it 10 rounds to 2 to Leonard :o

Round 9 has now gone on my list of Great all time rounds!!