Russia vs Ukraine..

Well well, which of these quotes should I address???

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

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Perhaps I'll combine the two of them to encompass your take on the situation
"You're dumb....BUUUUUUT I don't have time to explain my views"


Mighty nice of you to take the time to insult me rather than explain in detail your points. I mean that is the BEST way to debate. Here I am using a document addressing the very issue we're debating, agreed upon and signed by USA, UK, Russia....and you call me stupid....AH touché what a brilliant point you've made.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Well well, which of these quotes should I address???

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

You didn't get any smarter while you were away, did you?

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Perhaps I'll combine the two of them to encompass your take on the situation
"You're dumb....BUUUUUUT I don't have time to explain my views"


Mighty nice of you to take the time to insult me rather than explain in detail your points. I mean that is the BEST way to debate. Here I am using a document addressing the very issue we're debating, agreed upon and signed by USA, UK, Russia....and you call me stupid....AH touché what a brilliant point you've made.

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So you want to invade Ukraine now?

Also, too. Who broke that agreement first?

Also also too. Let's declare a moratorium on BLOCK CAPS between now and the next time you unconditionally surrender, eh? It doesn't make you any SMARTER when you use them.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

So you want to invade Ukraine now?

Also, too. Who broke that agreement first?

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No

Russia


'Also' and 'too' mean the same thing, so you're repeating yourself, you're being redundant, you're saying the same thing twice

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Also also too. Let's declare a moratorium on BLOCK CAPS between now and the next time you unconditionally surrender, eh? It doesn't make you any SMARTER when you use them.

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....Oh, I thought you didn't like block caps because you thought they were racist....you know, because you're a fucking moron

Eastern BLOC capitals ?

CNN Headline: Russia trying to start WW3.

Are they having a laugh? This is domestic CNN so it's good to see them keeping up good old Iraq traditions by talking complete and utter bollocks. When it comes to Chevron and Monsanta wanting their open access to Ukraine's resources, they go remarkably silent.

If this was Russia trying to grab Cuba I could understand these kinds of headlines, but these fruitcakes are on Russia's border wondering why Russia will defend Russian interests? It's bizarro world over there on CNN.

Obama is losing the propaganda war as they keep on falsifying evidence and get debunked every time. Rational people can see that America is provoking all of this.

Escobar on RT: US fears opposing views are gaining strength - YouTube

i haven't been following this but I heard Russia are being jerks.

With Obama is sticking to his guns over Chinas claim to Japanese islands too.

Core what with all that nd now Moscow as well I recon all these old signed treaties and the likes are now biting us on the ass we could all have trouble on a few fronts maybe 3 or 4 when you think about it. We are bombing some targets in Yemen on the sly still as well just to keep their fundamentalists at bay and as untrained as possible.Then theres Afgan we still have a skeleton ground crew in there directing traffic.

This is what one of our ex PMs (a smart boy too Malcolm Frazier) he was head of defense under one of the older governments here as well and was in during the Vietnam war, heres what he has to say about our ties with the states.

Intersting point.

Malcolm Fraser warns Australia risks war with China unless US military ties cut back

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Originally Posted by Andre

With Obama is sticking to his guns over Chinas claim to Japanese islands too.

Core what with all that nd now Moscow as well I recon all these old signed treaties and the likes are now biting us on the ass we could all have trouble on a few fronts maybe 3 or 4 when you think about it. We are bombing some targets in Yemen on the sly still as well just to keep their fundamentalists at bay and as untrained as possible.Then theres Afgan we still have a skeleton ground crew in there directing traffic.

This is what one of our ex PMs (a smart boy too Malcolm Frazier) he was head of defense under one of the older governments here as well and was in during the Vietnam war, heres what he has to say about our ties with the states.

Intersting point.

Malcolm Fraser warns Australia risks war with China unless US military ties cut back

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A great man once said "although the world around us continues to change the thinking of mankind does not."

Odd situation this. The only reason Ukraine gave up the nukes was that the West, along with Russia guaranteed w/o exception that invasion would never happen. That's a tough hand to trump.

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still Russia does have historic claim. They followed the Ottoman Empire and the Romans who had there share of ups and downs. Not sure how I'd react as a Nationalist if Quebec ever separated.

Its also a bit of a slippery slope morally for the States based on the islands in dispute between Japan and China. China had them prior to WW2 and they were invaded.

There is something very inconsistent with these two problems. On the one hand people oppose a country for taking back a province that was once theirs and on the other support an invaders claim on something that never was theirs.

That's some shifting foundations.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

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I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

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This is an interesting and honest post and I can agree with some of it but it is still oversimplifying the situation. Putin's version of the EU is nothing like the EU and the the entity that yourself, Miles and Noam Chomsky have invented called "the West" does not really exist. A hulking great homogeneous mass of individuals and Governments that all agree on one ideology that is an inverse version of one shared by an opposite group called "the East" could conceivably be described with such a reductionist nomenclature but actual reality and the people that live in it are not served by the use of such redundant metaphors. Those in Government and those who are governed, and those with power and those without have much more in common from both "the east" and "the west" than they have in opposition.

It is quite laughable that you can sit there and tell other people what they should and should not do in their own country whilst criticising people from other countries for doing the same thing. It is no good pulling out a measuring stick for Justice and then only measuring one side against it. Make no mistake their are no more honourable intentions from one side than the other in global politics, all sides have an agenda. If Egyptians,Tunisians, Ukrainians etc wish to overthrow their Government then I can not possibly judge such actions from this side of their society and everyday reality.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

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I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

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This is an interesting and honest post and I can agree with some of it but it is still oversimplifying the situation. Putin's version of the EU is nothing like the EU and the the entity that yourself, Miles and Noam Chomsky have invented called "the West" does not really exist. A hulking great homogeneous mass of individuals and Governments that all agree on one ideology that is an inverse version of one shared by an opposite group called "the East" could conceivably be described with such a reductionist nomenclature but actual reality and the people that live in it are not served by the use of such redundant metaphors. Those in Government and those who are governed, and those with power and those without have much more in common from both "the east" and "the west" than they have in opposition.

It is quite laughable that you can sit there and tell other people what they should and should not do in their own country whilst criticising people from other countries for doing the same thing. It is no good pulling out a measuring stick for Justice and then only measuring one side against it. Make no mistake their are no more honourable intentions from one side than the other in global politics, all sides have an agenda. If Egyptians,Tunisians, Ukrainians etc wish to overthrow their Government then I can not possibly judge such actions from this side of their society and everyday reality.

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I'm kind of hoping world war 3 starts for the sake of the planet. If it does not happen soon there wont be anything left to save. Killing off about 4 billion people would be a great start.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

Mles, in your own and Kirklands rush to oversimplify the issues you once again ignore the actions of despotic power crazed individuals to cast everyone else as stupid. Even ignoring Putin's foreign policy you can not seriously be defending the regime of somebody who is little more than a glorified crime lord? A man who installs his own leaders gradually removing dissenting voices and codifying intolerance into law. Then there are his actions abroad, arming fellow nut jobs like Assad whilst simultaneously lecturing the west. You want on one hand to be seen to be supporting the free democratic expression of a populace whilst supporting a man and regime who has a history of crushing and murdering civilians who wish to do so. Yes the west would like to have in place a compliant and corrupt regime that they can manipulate and profit from but Putin's objectives are just the same. In the middle are the civilians of a country and the 'demonic' EU that you and Brockton drone on about turns out to also be equally despised by both sides. You will think what you want to but please a little less preaching and lecturing AT everyone and a little more debate. This is a forum not a row of soap boxes.

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I'm not oversimplifying everything. I'm just not going into detail on anything because I don't have the time.

There are people in Ukraine who want the country to be pro-Europe and the way for them to express that is to vote for a suitable party in the next election, not overthrow the democratically elected government because they don't like it.

Russia and the west have been fighting over Ukraine for a long time now. Putin wants to bring it into his version of the EU. America and the west wants to turn the country pro-Europe, get access to its markets but not actually have it join the EU in the forseeable future. That is uncontroversial fact. It's not a version of events, or obsessively anti-American or whatever. It's just what has actually happened.

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This is an interesting and honest post and I can agree with some of it but it is still oversimplifying the situation. Putin's version of the EU is nothing like the EU and the the entity that yourself, Miles and Noam Chomsky have invented called "the West" does not really exist. A hulking great homogeneous mass of individuals and Governments that all agree on one ideology that is an inverse version of one shared by an opposite group called "the East" could conceivably be described with such a reductionist nomenclature but actual reality and the people that live in it are not served by the use of such redundant metaphors. Those in Government and those who are governed, and those with power and those without have much more in common from both "the east" and "the west" than they have in opposition.

It is quite laughable that you can sit there and tell other people what they should and should not do in their own country whilst criticising people from other countries for doing the same thing. It is no good pulling out a measuring stick for Justice and then only measuring one side against it. Make no mistake their are no more honourable intentions from one side than the other in global politics, all sides have an agenda. If Egyptians,Tunisians, Ukrainians etc wish to overthrow their Government then I can not possibly judge such actions from this side of their society and everyday reality.

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Of course 'the West' exists and with the demise of nation states the entity is becoming increasingly easy to define. They are the globalists that aim to bring everybody down and have been doing it for decades. The elites seem to meet at all the same points and it is largely Western elites. Britain and America in terms of foreign policy and economics are increasingly identical and the EU now being this abomination that is in the process of wiping out individual national sovereignty has now become a vampire squid, much akin to the devilry we see in the English speaking nations. Now granted it isn't an absolute and whilst most suffer, some nations are doing better than others. I don't include Scandinavian countries in my definition of the West as they are sensible and stay out of the kamikaze sinkholes. It is mainly Western Europe, America, and Britain, though sometimes sensible voices will come through such as France on Iraq. At the same time, I also regard Japan as a kamikaze sinkhole, though clearly that has nothing to do with Europe and is mostly about economics and not military.

When I speak of the West though, it is mainly in reference to the UK and America, but certainly in the Ukraine, Europe is playing its role in ramping up the fallacies and propaganda. Have you ever thought that maybe Kirkland, me and Chomsky and countless others are not wrong, but it is more likely that you yourself have swallowed too much kool aid. You are repeatedly reading propaganda and say things like 'Well, what about this then!'. It then gets shown to be the reaction that the lie was induced to produce. And it typically is lies. Stop falling for lies. If you cannot look at both sides and fail to see that the West is responsible for this, then there is little that can be done to help you. Long may you lap up headlines like 'Russia trying to start WW3' and other peculiar absurdities. It has no connection with reality.

Chomsky, Kaiser, Galloway, Hedges, Hudson etc, must all be completely mad in the world of Greenbeanz and are clearly not with it because they don't support the lies, get on CNN, and say things like 'Russia trying to start WW3'. I read everything I can and try to make my own mind up and that is why I say things that are similar to others and at other times hurtle down my own path. You sound eerily like too many British newspapers.

Miles STOP, take a breath and think for one tiny second BEFORE you post. Do you really think that I am so stupid ? You are simply projecting again. The West that you speak of is not really that at all. You are talking about corrupt Government regimes and then roping the entire populace into the equation. Individuals are being sold down the river by those in charge of wielding power on both sides and you are excusing one side. Who is drinking Kool Aid now ? What a vapid and terrible cheap American metaphor that is anyway. The Americans don't want Ukraine to join the EU and neither does Russia and Yet according to you the problem is the EU? You sound like an Elitist fool every time you misinterpret a post that I make encouraging you to look at the whole picture as an excuse to portray me as some brain dead manipulated sheep. You are by far the Squarest person I know and yet you seem intent on portraying yourself as some uniquely informed rebel whose job it is to enlighten everybody else (who in your tiny little world are stupid compliant minions) whilst you swallow whole the bullshit propaganda of slimy weasels like George Galloway and Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.

I try my best to bite my tongue but at times you behave quite simply like an ill mannered idiot. I am not attacking you or Kirkland or even your precious Chomsky when You regurgitate other people's opinions, I am simply stating my own conviction that many of those behind what you like to think of as ' alternative 'points of view are actually self serving selectavists, not themselves intent on not revealing truth but rather in reality more interested in pushing their own dogma and agenda. You have dug yourself into an entrenched position ,and that shapes your viewpoint to the point of only ever reacting to any event in one way. You are becoming predictable. 12 tears it has taken you to catch up with everyone else and realise that Blair is a wanker. Despite what you assume I have been active in protesting against 'Western' intervention in places like Iraq for nearly 20 years. In 1998 I was out playing festivals around the UK singing

"Bill Clinton
fucking dictator
may be the president
but isn't the creator
fuck off America
fuck off America........"

and joining feet on the ground around Europe marching against facism which is hardly the actions of a Kool aid drinking easily manipulated shill. You can oversimplify things to your hearts content but things are never that simple.

No, I don't think you are stupid in the slightest, quite the opposite in fact and that is why I struggle to get my head around why you can't see that this has all been provoked by the West and by the West I mean the EU and the US. The EU is all sore that the corrupt former leader opted for closer ties with Russia and in turn the US is sore that 5bn dollars spent on civil unrest is potentially being tampered with. Those two things are what has caused all this. The fact that Western supported Nazi thugs also assassinated police and protestors also appears to have been largely swept under the rug. The media is terrible and in particular the British and American media which I have been following. I think most people are fairly ignorant on the issue and considering they have to work and feed families, that isn't entirely their fault, but the media is also going mental with the whole 'Russia and starting WW3 spiel'. It is irresponsible, untrue, and a sign of just how far British and American press freedom has fallen. They literally do nothing but spout the words of government officials and the illegitimate terrorist government of the Ukraine.

I agree with you that Russia is nothing saintly and would argue as much about many concentrated sources of power, but you cannot go provoking coups on the borders of a powerful nation and have militias going around beating people up. The West should be denouncing this, but is instead full flow on a demonise Putin mission. I honestly think Putin has been remarkably restrained all things considered. Would America tolerate the Russians pumping billions into Mexico and then have Mexico have Russian nukes brought in and have militia going around beating up all American expats? No, it would be terrible and of course any sane person would want that to be stopped.

You are ludicrous to be calling me square, a sheep etc when I don't follow the rulebook. Everything I do is a rejection of the rule book and that doesn't make me a maverick nor a rebel, but it does mean I am an individual. Some of it is great, some of it less so, but I am not a square. A square is accepting that plastic bags are great. A square is watching the BBC. A square is taking on a mortgage. A square is living in a hometown from birth to death. A square is wanting to fit in. I am not a square, I would inject inject heroin into my tongue and simultaneously read The Idiot by Dostoevsky upside down and back to front and write a letter using my left foot. That, my good fellow, is not square, but rounded. Some might even call it distinct, but that is neither here nor there, and is merely a distraction from the real issues.

Nothing in life is simple nor easy, but seeing how this started is not that complex. Why on earth would anyone pump 5 billion dollars into the Ukraine when that should be spent on giving the people of Detroit their pensions. This has been setup for years and labour for the EU and the land for America seems to have been the deal. It isn't cut and dry, but we know Russia has pipelines and a considerable Russian population in the Ukraine. They have relations, the Americans should certainly not be any part of this and the EU should be in it for their gas form kool-aid and that alone.

We all agree that the Ukraine should be for the Ukrainians, so bugger off Obama and bugger off Hague. What in God's name does Hague have to do with anything, what a stupid little egg head. Fix your own countries, you idiots, and allow your press some freedom. Go away EU, you unelected kleptocrats. Go away unelected coup government of the Ukraine with your white envelope bribes, Nazism, and thuggish brutality of your own people. Leave the Ukraine alone, all of you. Only people that care should be involved and at least Russia is saying 'Don't beat up our people'. They are the only ones with a genuine concern here.