sQuote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Are you saying Sanders and Wlad were at the level of Louis's big opponents?
Because if that's what your reducing yourself to upholding then you might as well admit you are beaten.
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sQuote:
Originally Posted by powerpuncher
Are you saying Sanders and Wlad were at the level of Louis's big opponents?
Because if that's what your reducing yourself to upholding then you might as well admit you are beaten.
Well Since Ali was never even knocked out you really have nothing Max just a opinion which really is not that great because there is no facts to it. So what Ali was dropped a few times but never was iced and he was the size of Holyfeild another man that was never iced. Ali was about as tall as Sanders and weighed in between 215 and 225 which is not far off the people today. Wald been dropped more then any Heavyweight champion in history I believe. He lost to good top 10 contender in Sanders, a Journeyman Purrity and Brewster who was out boxed by guys Ali's size with shit records before knocking Wald the fuck out. I just think your nut hugging dude not even saying Ali would not lose fights but he has great chance with anyone yet again Mercer fucking out boxed Lewis i thing Ali can do the same.
Look man, Ali was an inch taller than Holyfield and an inch shorter than Sanders. But he had neither the chin of Holyfield or the punch of Sanders (or the chin either).
Ali was at premium 212lbs. Anything you try to rate Ali above that rate much is a blown up version (i.e. he was fat and unathletic). Holyfield by comparison was in FACT 215-220lbs of solid muscle not a scrap of fart and supremely conditioned.
Incredible, you are trying to pass off one of the laziest trained boxers at those weights you extrapolate for him, even his own trainer made statements about the slovenliness of Ali, as the same size as Holyfield or natural HW's!
Now I know Holyfield is artificially pumped up to that weight. Were we discussing ethics here, sure I would agree with you, Holy should be a cruiser. But by todays standards, so should Ali!
You are wrong, Toney stopped Holyfield, Bowe knocked Holyfield out, testament to the power of one of the technical giants of the modern era.
And Ali was stopped by Holmes, a much superior boxer than Ali anyway!
Sure it was end of career. And you can say he was never KO'd any other and that makes him the best chin.
So I suppose by that logic then Floyd Mayweather has the hardest chin of all time too then right? Cause he was never KO'd.
Or for HW's I guess Marciano would also survive modern HW because he was never even beaten let alone KO'd?
You would like that!
But wait, then you also have to admit Vitali Klitschko and Nikolay Valuev to that magical un-KOable list too then because neither were they!
You see where we're headed? Obviously the POWER of punches across the era in question is a very important factor in remaining un-KOed.
Your logic is silly. Ali was old when he was stopped by Larry. Floyd's career is not over. Valuev was not stopped but no one said he had a great chin. What are you on about?
Ali was already having signs of Parkinson before fighting Holmes at almost the age of 39 what a pointless thing to point out his corner throw in the towel also i believe. Holyfeild Had hep b and Hart problems during the Bowe fight wasn't really iced was he. Bringing up fights when he was well in his 40's doesn't mean shit really your prime is gone at 40 not everyone is Hopkins. I won't bring up Wlads loses when he is in his 40's because it is point less he got knocked the fuck out when he was in prime body wise. He has not been knocked since but to be honest i don't think he fought a guy as good as Sanders since then. Chambers should be Cw, Eddie should be a CW, Peters fat blob in which he never should of had a hard time with, then he fought few ok contenders. Bryde is his best win yet again could very well been a CW. And has yet to fight Vitali which i know is his brother but hurts him because he was not the man for a lot of his reign because of his brother being champ how can you be a champ if dont fight the best. Not saying he should fight his brother but he doesn't even need to fight all the contenders because of his brother.
I also think 2014 has been the shittiest boxing year thus far in the past 10 years..
David Haye was definitely his best opponent, Samuel Peter was a far more dangerous opponent than Joe Frazier! And so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Byrd was his best opponent, what drugs are you on. Byrd has not the firepower to trouble Wladimir or the style. Has had no chance of ever beating Wladimir under any circumstances ever just like Muihammad Ali!
The way you rate fighters man is all back to front! The weaker the boxer, the better they are in your eyes.
Another stupid statement "Sam Peter a fat blob" sure he got fat alright, but against Klit you could see his muscles ripping through. As opposed to pot bellied Frazier who you credit Ali with beating. Let me tell you, if you can see a 6-pack, the boxer is not fat!
I think I declared those reasons for Ali getting stopped already, the point I was trying to make was you can't claim Ali had an iron chin or a better chin than Wlad when he didn't have to fight anywhere near the number of hard punching bxers that Wlad did.
As for Wlad's opponents, we all know what would happen if we lined up Ali's opponents and gave that career list to Thompson, Peter, Haye, Povetkin, Rahman, Chagaev, Ibragimov etc. They would knock almost every single one of them out! Masters of escapology Chambers and Byrd would UD almost all of them and score appreciable KO rates too.
Jean Marc Mormeck would have been considered a 6-time HW champion back in Ali's day and was bigger and leaner than Ali, one of the heftiest non-bum opponentns Ali would have faced and only 1lb lighter than "big" George Foreman!
What for Wladimir was considered a complete mismatch would for Ali have been considered the greatest opponent he'd ever faced.
You also mentioned Chambers and Byrd were blown up cruisers, that's true, so was David Haye! I never said there was anything wrong with that but...
Chambers and Byrd relied on their elusiveness to "steal fights", the opposite of Ali's tactic of taking punches. Insisting on the 60's Ali that wasn't so easy to hit, that guy's style was reliant on his height and range advantage to land which at 6'3" tall is today mediocre and weight advntage to command respect which today would be reversed. Byrd and Chambers were elusive rrespective of size.
As for Haye, tht's interesting because they were the same size. Except Haye is mega-ripped at that weight ad Ali is not (still fit but). Haye is faster and has better reflexes than Ali ever did and his upper body movement allows him to evade piunches from "bigger" opponents unlike Ali who relied only on "running away" from his opponents to win. And of course Hye had a cracker punch where as Ali could not punch through the surface tension of water. I can't see Ali surviving many rounds at all against Haye.
"Because he is yet to fight his brother"
Sure that situation hurt boxing a bit but you claim that he didn't fight all the opponents because his brother took half of them.
That statement was silly because if Wlaidmir fought ALL the opponents, let's take the last 15 of Vitali's then that would put Wlad at 80 fights!
At 230+ HW you cannot have as many fights as you could in the days of 175+ or even 200+ because the punches get hrder and harder and damage accumulates quicker. Already Wladimir has the most fights, the largest record of 200+ real HW fights of all time!
Lennox Lewis did not fight all the opponents either.
Everything I claim for Wladimir I can claim similar for for Vitali as well. In fact his case is even easier to prove his superiority just numerically.
Every single one of Vitali's opponents from Lewis on was virtually either...
- A champion, former champion, future champion
- A giant super HW average 240+ lbs! (The largest non-bum opponent Ali ever fought was 225lb Alvin Lewis)
- An unbeaten contender or nearly unbeaten.
or a combination of the above.
Sam Peter was more dangerous than Frazier? I don't even know where to begin with that. I just question your mental capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max PowerDavid Haye was definitely his best opponent, Samuel Peter was a far more dangerous opponent than Joe Frazier! And so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Byrd was his best opponent, what drugs are you on. Byrd has not the firepower to trouble Wladimir or the style. Has had no chance of ever beating Wladimir under any circumstances ever just like Muihammad Ali!
The way you rate fighters man is all back to front! The weaker the boxer, the better they are in your eyes.
Another stupid statement "Sam Peter a fat blob" sure he got fat alright, but against Klit you could see his muscles ripping through. As opposed to pot bellied Frazier who you credit Ali with beating. Let me tell you, if you can see a 6-pack, the boxer is not fat!
I think I declared those reasons for Ali getting stopped already, the point I was trying to make was you can't claim Ali had an iron chin or a better chin than Wlad when he didn't have to fight anywhere near the number of hard punching bxers that Wlad did.
As for Wlad's opponents, we all know what would happen if we lined up Ali's opponents and gave that career list to Thompson, Peter, Haye, Povetkin, Rahman, Chagaev, Ibragimov etc. They would knock almost every single one of them out! Masters of escapology Chambers and Byrd would UD almost all of them and score appreciable KO rates too.
Jean Marc Mormeck would have been considered a 6-time HW champion back in Ali's day and was bigger and leaner than Ali, one of the heftiest non-bum opponentns Ali would have faced and only 1lb lighter than "big" George Foreman!
What for Wladimir was considered a complete mismatch would for Ali have been considered the greatest opponent he'd ever faced.
You also mentioned Chambers and Byrd were blown up cruisers, that's true, so was David Haye! I never said there was anything wrong with that but...
Chambers and Byrd relied on their elusiveness to "steal fights", the opposite of Ali's tactic of taking punches. Insisting on the 60's Ali that wasn't so easy to hit, that guy's style was reliant on his height and range advantage to land which at 6'3" tall is today mediocre and weight advntage to command respect which today would be reversed. Byrd and Chambers were elusive rrespective of size.
As for Haye, tht's interesting because they were the same size. Except Haye is mega-ripped at that weight ad Ali is not (still fit but). Haye is faster and has better reflexes than Ali ever did and his upper body movement allows him to evade piunches from "bigger" opponents unlike Ali who relied only on "running away" from his opponents to win. And of course Hye had a cracker punch where as Ali could not punch through the surface tension of water. I can't see Ali surviving many rounds at all against Haye.
Joe Frazier's career at a glance..Quote:
Sam Peter was more dangerous than Frazier? I don't even know where to begin with that. I just question your mental capacity.
Frazier was blind on left eye his entire professional career (after a training accident 1964). He would pass medical exams by covering his left eye and then switch his arm to cover his left eye AGAIN. Such a handicap as Frazier wouldn't be allowed to box nowadays.
Height: 5'11'.5" (BOTTOM-2 of Wladimir Klitschko's opponents)
Started as a cruiser 197 lbs. Median weight 204 lbs. Peter NOT ONCE fought anyone as light as that.
Median weight of Frazier's KO'victim: 197 lbs (cruiser)
Career record (all fights): 32-4 (not too impressive)
Career record real heavyweight fights 200×2 lbs: 13-4 (bum)
Frazier never fought an opponent a hefty as Wlad's AVERAGE opponent.
That would be Frazier's real experience compared to Samuel Peter. Every opponent Samuel Peter faced with such little experience he KO'd within early rounds.
Frazier ducked/never fought some of the better+hard punching boxers of his time like Sonny Liston, Mac Foster, Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton, Cleveland Williams. Peter fought both Klitschko's and other of the most hard punching division of all time.
The only time Frazier met a guy of comparable quality to a modern boxer he got brutally annihilated 2ce.
Yeah I think I can safely say that Samuel Peter is just a little bit more dangerous than Frazier.
A seemingly harsh but highly accurate desciption of Frazier would be an out of shape, chinny, featherfisted, handicapped punch bag bum dwarf with a very limited style.
The ONLY reason that Frazier is pumped up to be anything other today is because the OTNB community KNOWS that if it admits Frazier is no match for a modern boxer, then it is virtually conceding that Ali and the rest of the Golden Age is of lesser calibre as well. That's why the fantasy of Frazier must be upheld because he is a pillar for the whole charade because he beat the greatest!
You crazy. Pass whatever your smoking to me, its a friday night in England and Im here reading this drivel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Guys, Joe Frazier was a non stop punching machine. Sam peter was a fat pig. In fact I thought James Toney a lazy big fat MW beat him the first fight.
Yeah sure, Joe Frazier had a much higher punch output than Peter.
Just saying the Frazier that Ali fought was soft bellied whereas the Peter that Wlad fought was 6-packed!
As for the punch output, a hundred of those punches could not do as much damage as just 1 big punch from Sam Peter!
Of course Frazier is gonna have a higher output than Peter, Peter outweighs Frazier by 40 fucking lbs!!
Frazier was not what we would today describe as a HW!!!
Another way to look at it is that Peter is an example of a "Super-Frazier".
Take Frazier, put him n steroids for a few years and beef him up to 240, give him a big punch and a hard chin...
There's Samuel Peter!!
http://image.trucktrend.com/f/featur...hammad-ali.jpg
You can see in the image above that Joe and Muhammad are not HW's by modern standards. They are chubbed up CW's. Today when we have CW's step up to HW they are usually "muscled up" and "highly athletic" at the new weight as opposed to just naturally increasing to that weight like Joe and Muhammad by virtue of getting older and fatter. If you make Joe and Muhammad train hard enough and lean up enough to make weight like current CW's do, they fit well into the 200lb limit.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s2KIJbhUZ2...weigh+in+4.jpg
I could not find one of Wladimir standing next to Peter but you all know that Wlad is even more ripped than Vitali. It is clear from viewing these 2 guys that both Vitali AND Peter are of a far higher calibre than Joe or Muhammad, about 2 or 3 weight ranges above!!
And leaner! Both Klits and Samuel are sporting the outline of what appears to be not just a 6-pack, but one with very large, strong abdominal muscles.
Yes I can certainly see what your talking about. Peter looks morbidly obese in this image! LOL
Your failing gentlemen!
The fact is that today, the champions are muscled up, lean and 6-packed and SOME of their opponents are fat.
In the "Golden Era"... The CHAMPIONS themselves were fat!
The only six pack Sam Peter has is his beer belly. Look, I'll say it again you can not compare one era vs another. As I said before a high school kid today can beat Jesse Owens time with ease. Does that mean Jesse Owens was not great? Joe Frazier in his prime was about 205. With todays diet and training Joe would be about 230. The question is could Sam Peter beat a 230 pound Joe Frazier? If James Toney could make Sam Peter look foolish at times. What does that say about Sam Peter? Ali fought in a very tough era in which there were skilled fighters. Ok, Joe Frazier beat Ali in there first fight. People forget Ali hasn't fought in 3 and a half years. True he did has 2 tune up fights. The time he fought Quarry to the Frazier fight was 5 months. Just not enough time to get back in the swing of things. I lived in both eras. Believe me the talent level has dropped way off. To me, in my life time this is the worst era for HW boxing I've ever seen. I'm not saying all of boxing just the HWs.