Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Wow these are three prospects who match up with any prospect in the business, but who will achieve the most in their career?
Victor Ortiz: good speed and power, great amateur who's chin I question a little bit, but seems to be the complete package. He's 21 and has had 23 fights.
Juan Manuel Lopez: the furthest into his career of these three, he has scary power, good boxing skills, not as fast as the other two, but definitely a future star, and very dynamic fighter.
Then there is
Daniel Jacobs: This kid has incredible handspeed, great body work, the most untested, but has good power, and like I said you have to love that left hook to the body, and he also seems pretty tight technically.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
All three are great, but I wouldn't call JuanMa a prospect anymore, he's already in top eschelon of his division, and he's an honorary alphabet soup member.
I really like Danny Jacobs, he's really got his game under control.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
I consider a fighter a prospect depending on their potential, I think until JML fights either Marquez or Vazquez that he is a prospect.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I consider a fighter a prospect depending on their potential, I think until JML fights either Marquez or Vazquez that he is a prospect.
I can't agree with this definition, because that would mean Molitor, Caballero, Gonzalez, DPDL and Penalosa are all prospects as well.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Ortiz is the one I'm most exited about from those.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I consider a fighter a prospect depending on their potential, I think until JML fights either Marquez or Vazquez that he is a prospect.
I can't agree with this definition, because that would mean Molitor, Caballero, Gonzalez, DPDL and Penalosa are all prospects as well.
No it isn't, they have never had JML's potential which is what I am saying, I think Roy Jones JR was a prospect until he faced James Toney ,and the world realized how good he was, even though he was already a title holder at middleweight, and had beaten respectable names.
I think Ali was a prospect until he faced Listion though he had already foughten good fighters before then
Mayweather was largely considered a prospect until he beat Corrales, even though it was his seventh title defense.
I still view Berto has a prosecpt even though he has a title, because he hasn't foughten the best yet.
LIke I said I think a guy is a prospect until he faces somebody who is considered at least even with him going into the fight.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I consider a fighter a prospect depending on their potential, I think until JML fights either Marquez or Vazquez that he is a prospect.
I can't agree with this definition, because that would mean Molitor, Caballero, Gonzalez, DPDL and Penalosa are all prospects as well.
No it isn't, they have never had JML's potential which is what I am saying, I think Roy Jones JR was a prospect until he faced James Toney ,and the world realized how good he was, even though he was already a title holder at middleweight, and had beaten respectable names.
I think Ali was a prospect until he faced Listion though he had already foughten good fighters before then
Mayweather was largely considered a prospect until he beat Corrales, even though it was his seventh title defense.
I still view Berto has a prosecpt even though he has a title, because he hasn't foughten the best yet.
LIke I said I think a guy is a prospect until he faces somebody who is considered at least even with him going into the fight.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, I consider those guys contenders and champs.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I can't agree with this definition, because that would mean Molitor, Caballero, Gonzalez, DPDL and Penalosa are all prospects as well.
No it isn't, they have never had JML's potential which is what I am saying, I think Roy Jones JR was a prospect until he faced James Toney ,and the world realized how good he was, even though he was already a title holder at middleweight, and had beaten respectable names.
I think Ali was a prospect until he faced Listion though he had already foughten good fighters before then
Mayweather was largely considered a prospect until he beat Corrales, even though it was his seventh title defense.
I still view Berto has a prosecpt even though he has a title, because he hasn't foughten the best yet.
LIke I said I think a guy is a prospect until he faces somebody who is considered at least even with him going into the fight.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, I consider those guys contenders and champs.
Not trying to argue, but how did we know how Molitor would do against Caballero until they fought?
How would we know how ALi would do against Liston? Or Roy vs Toney?
I feel that until these guys fight the best in the world at their division there is always doubt about how good they will be when they take that step up.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kel
Ortiz is the one I'm most exited about from those.
Agreed.Looking forward to his go with Resto Saturday night,nice step.Legitimate southpaw power & hand speed.Like his cofidence and activity also.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
No it isn't, they have never had JML's potential which is what I am saying, I think Roy Jones JR was a prospect until he faced James Toney ,and the world realized how good he was, even though he was already a title holder at middleweight, and had beaten respectable names.
I think Ali was a prospect until he faced Listion though he had already foughten good fighters before then
Mayweather was largely considered a prospect until he beat Corrales, even though it was his seventh title defense.
I still view Berto has a prosecpt even though he has a title, because he hasn't foughten the best yet.
LIke I said I think a guy is a prospect until he faces somebody who is considered at least even with him going into the fight.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree, I consider those guys contenders and champs.
Not trying to argue, but how did we know how Molitor would do against Caballero until they fought?
How would we know how ALi would do against Liston? Or Roy vs Toney?
I feel that until these guys fight the best in the world at their division there is always doubt about how good they will be when they take that step up.
Let me try to understand your logic here better tell me if I understand correctly.
categories
1) Champ - The man of the division
2) Contender - People who have lost to the champ
3) Prospect - People who have not yet fought the champ.
is that correct?
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Thats close to it, I respect your opinion of it, I guess its hard to say, Personally I still think Dawson is a little bit of a prospect, I think a guy with a certain amount of ability needs to have that defining fight, I mean Hopkins, we didn't really know how to cage his skills until he fought Trinidad at 36, so it gets tricky, but I consider a prospect a guy who we still have questions about what he can become, as opposed to guys who we feel we have a pretty good indication of what skill level they have, how good they can possibly get, so to contradict what I've said before I think a prospect is a guy who hasnt' peaked yet. I think a guy like JML should be in the top 10 p4p eventually, and when that happens he will have stopped being a prospect. I still think Cotto was a prospect/belt holder until he fought Judah, because despite the Quintana fight, we saw his weaknesses as well, and thats when I knew for sure that he was going to be able to hang with the big boys. For Mayweather it was Corrales, Pavlik it was Taylor, Taylor it was Hopkins, Kessler it was the way IMO that he beat Mundine in the second half of that fight. Vazquez it was beating Marquez in the rematch. Pacquiao it was beating Barrera.
Some guys don't have the potential so I feel they reach their mark faster, but some guys have all the potential in the world, and I think that they need the right opponent to bring it out of them, or the right opponent to show, "look I can compete or beat anyone in the world."
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Thats close to it, I respect your opinion of it, I guess its hard to say, Personally I still think Dawson is a little bit of a prospect, I think a guy with a certain amount of ability needs to have that defining fight, I mean Hopkins, we didn't really know how to cage his skills until he fought Trinidad at 36, so it gets tricky, but I consider a prospect a guy who we still have questions about what he can become, as opposed to guys who we feel we have a pretty good indication of what skill level they have, how good they can possibly get, so to contradict what I've said before I think a prospect is a guy who hasnt' peaked yet. I think a guy like JML should be in the top 10 p4p eventually, and when that happens he will have stopped being a prospect. I still think Cotto was a prospect/belt holder until he fought Judah, because despite the Quintana fight, we saw his weaknesses as well, and thats when I knew for sure that he was going to be able to hang with the big boys. For Mayweather it was Corrales, Pavlik it was Taylor, Taylor it was Hopkins, Kessler it was the way IMO that he beat Mundine in the second half of that fight. Vazquez it was beating Marquez in the rematch. Pacquiao it was beating Barrera.
Some guys don't have the potential so I feel they reach their mark faster, but some guys have all the potential in the world, and I think that they need the right opponent to bring it out of them, or the right opponent to show, "look I can compete or beat anyone in the world."
See this is where we are going to disagree (respectfully of course). In my estimation anyone that gets to level of challenging for an alphabet title or gets an eliminator bout should be considered a contender, the guys that make up the upper level of any weight class. JuanMa beat DPDL, a guy who has held a strap for a while and held a level of repsect in a division that is has been for sometime loaded with talent. Here's how I would break down my categories.
1. Champ - The Ring Champ
2. Strap Holder - Holder of any of the big four titles
3. Contender - Anyone that is within a fight or two of a title shot or eliminator shot
4. Fringe Contender/Journeyman - Someone that acts as a gatekeeper to contender status, their reward for beating a prospect is to move back into the contender position
5. Prospect - Someone who has not challenged any contenders, but shows promise
6. The Pack - any of the thousands of others that don't have connections to major promoters, or the talent to make a move.
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Thats close to it, I respect your opinion of it, I guess its hard to say, Personally I still think Dawson is a little bit of a prospect, I think a guy with a certain amount of ability needs to have that defining fight, I mean Hopkins, we didn't really know how to cage his skills until he fought Trinidad at 36, so it gets tricky, but I consider a prospect a guy who we still have questions about what he can become, as opposed to guys who we feel we have a pretty good indication of what skill level they have, how good they can possibly get, so to contradict what I've said before I think a prospect is a guy who hasnt' peaked yet. I think a guy like JML should be in the top 10 p4p eventually, and when that happens he will have stopped being a prospect. I still think Cotto was a prospect/belt holder until he fought Judah, because despite the Quintana fight, we saw his weaknesses as well, and thats when I knew for sure that he was going to be able to hang with the big boys. For Mayweather it was Corrales, Pavlik it was Taylor, Taylor it was Hopkins, Kessler it was the way IMO that he beat Mundine in the second half of that fight. Vazquez it was beating Marquez in the rematch. Pacquiao it was beating Barrera.
Some guys don't have the potential so I feel they reach their mark faster, but some guys have all the potential in the world, and I think that they need the right opponent to bring it out of them, or the right opponent to show, "look I can compete or beat anyone in the world."
See this is where we are going to disagree (respectfully of course). In my estimation anyone that gets to level of challenging for an alphabet title or gets an eliminator bout should be considered a contender, the guys that make up the upper level of any weight class. JuanMa beat DPDL, a guy who has held a strap for a while and held a level of repsect in a division that is has been for sometime loaded with talent. Here's how I would break down my categories.
1. Champ - The Ring Champ
2. Strap Holder - Holder of any of the big four titles
3. Contender - Anyone that is within a fight or two of a title shot or eliminator shot
4. Fringe Contender/Journeyman - Someone that acts as a gatekeeper to contender status, their reward for beating a prospect is to move back into the contender position
5. Prospect - Someone who has not challenged any contenders, but shows promise
6. The Pack - any of the thousands of others that don't have connections to major promoters, or the talent to make a move.
Very accurate assessment of those terms if I may say so:cool:
Re: Which prospect on Dec 06 has the most potential?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Thats close to it, I respect your opinion of it, I guess its hard to say, Personally I still think Dawson is a little bit of a prospect, I think a guy with a certain amount of ability needs to have that defining fight, I mean Hopkins, we didn't really know how to cage his skills until he fought Trinidad at 36, so it gets tricky, but I consider a prospect a guy who we still have questions about what he can become, as opposed to guys who we feel we have a pretty good indication of what skill level they have, how good they can possibly get, so to contradict what I've said before I think a prospect is a guy who hasnt' peaked yet. I think a guy like JML should be in the top 10 p4p eventually, and when that happens he will have stopped being a prospect. I still think Cotto was a prospect/belt holder until he fought Judah, because despite the Quintana fight, we saw his weaknesses as well, and thats when I knew for sure that he was going to be able to hang with the big boys. For Mayweather it was Corrales, Pavlik it was Taylor, Taylor it was Hopkins, Kessler it was the way IMO that he beat Mundine in the second half of that fight. Vazquez it was beating Marquez in the rematch. Pacquiao it was beating Barrera.
Some guys don't have the potential so I feel they reach their mark faster, but some guys have all the potential in the world, and I think that they need the right opponent to bring it out of them, or the right opponent to show, "look I can compete or beat anyone in the world."
See this is where we are going to disagree (respectfully of course). In my estimation anyone that gets to level of challenging for an alphabet title or gets an eliminator bout should be considered a contender, the guys that make up the upper level of any weight class. JuanMa beat DPDL, a guy who has held a strap for a while and held a level of repsect in a division that is has been for sometime loaded with talent. Here's how I would break down my categories.
1. Champ - The Ring Champ
2. Strap Holder - Holder of any of the big four titles
3. Contender - Anyone that is within a fight or two of a title shot or eliminator shot
4. Fringe Contender/Journeyman - Someone that acts as a gatekeeper to contender status, their reward for beating a prospect is to move back into the contender position
5. Prospect - Someone who has not challenged any contenders, but shows promise
6. The Pack - any of the thousands of others that don't have connections to major promoters, or the talent to make a move.
Very accurate assessment of those terms if I may say so:cool:
Indeed, in all my years here i've never seen anyone set out a guide of how you would fit someone into the catagory of Journeyman etc...
It's interesting how you could expand as well.. I'd say a journeyman is also a prospect who has had a shot or 2 at a contender and not particularly impressed, but is always ahead of the pack and has beaten some decent prospects..
I've only seen one Jacobs fight, but he looked impressive and will definitely be a good fighter to watch in the future..
