Sergio Martinez, overated slightly?

Now I'm not denying that he is a very good fighter, but he seems now by almost unanimous acclaim to be considered one of the top 3 or 4 p4p fighters in the world.

Have his results really merited that?

Look at his last 5 or 6 fights. He went 1-1 with Williams, won a decision over Pavlik, fought to a draw against Kermit Cintron (a bulsshit call I know, but he still went 12 rounds and couldn't decivesly finish him) and last time out beat some 154 lber none of us had seen fight before.

Now it IS an impressive, run, and his loss to Williams was close too, but again, whether you thought he won or not, it was razor close.

It seems to me that in his biggest fights, they had all been beaten, often better before.

Margarito wrecked Cintron twice, Hopkins made Pavlik look clueless, and Williams was outboxed in his first fight with Quintana.

I would argue that there are other fighters who have had better wins lately. Andre Ward, Carl Froch, Bernad Hopkins stand out for me.

Sergio is definitely p5p, and to be fair he'd probably be in my top 5 I think. Having said that I don't think he's beaten anybody great yet. Williams was his best win, but he's 1-1 with him.

Most regard Cintron pretty lightly, Pavlik as badly faded, Znisiruk or whatever as an unknown.

I think Martinez is benefiting from being in a weak division with no competition.

If Abraham came back down that could be interesting. I'd give Pavlik a shot in a rematch if he found his old form.

A very good fighter, but no rivals, and to me, he hasn't looked different class in his fights with Williams and Pavlik, or even Cintron really. Certainly nowhere near the different class Mayweather, Manny, Ward, Donaire have all looked lately.

I guess the question is, who would you put above him?

The Cintron fight is so tainted with controversy it's kind of hard to use it against Martinez in any way.
Firstly he hit Cintron so hard he thought it was a headbutt, and then when things got all mixed up, Cintron had what? 5 minutes to recover?

Not sure why you would have Ward, Froch or Hopkins above him really.

IF Hopkins can beat Pascal convincingly the case can be made, I guess, but who has he fought that keeps him up there? Pavlik that was more than two years ago. For Froch and Ward the Super Six is still ongoing (for better or worse) and kinda leaves a question mark ultimately as they are tied to that tourney.

Martinez on the other hand is the Lineal Middleweight champ and his KO of PWill cannot be understated. I am totally comfortable with him currently being the #3 or #4 p4p, he will have to maintain that against What the others you mention will do this year.

I was thinking the same recently. But I couldn't think of any reasons to back it up.

I think he's good, just not that good. But there is no denying the KO of Williams was awesome.

I can't even be bothered to try and think, so I won't. But I don't think he should be top 5 pfp.

ive been shouting this since the williams win

he is a very good fighter but his record definately doesnt put him at third best boxer in the world

and i think you hit the nail on the head to as why

I am a huge Sergio Martinez fan so I admit it's difficult for me to be objective about it. In addition, p4p rankings are super subjective. I can only explain where I'm coming from really, whether you agree is entirely different. I believe Sergio Martinez's wins over Paul Williams and Kelly Pavlik and Sergiy Dzinziruk are as good as any active boxer other than Manny Pacquiao. Donaire should be mentioned too. Other than those three, I don't believe anyone has done as much currently. Kelly Pavlik held the lineal middleweight crown when Martinez beat him. Paul Williams was the best at 154 in most people's eyes when Martinez beat him, and in my opinion, and this is where our opinions may diverge, Dzinziruk was also the best at 154 when Martinez beat him. Again, this is subjective, but Bhop beat Kelly at 170, Kelly was much better at middleweight (same goes for AA whom I'll mention later) because at 160 he was physically too big for most anyone else. I believe Cintron gets a bad rap. He has resorted to weird antics in and out of the ring, but he is a good boxer. Margarito beat him with bricks in his gloves and it made Cintron look bad. If you take out his losses to Margarito because they were suspect, he beat an undefeated Alfredo Angulo and was hanging in there with Paul Williams when he dove out of the ring.

Carl Froch lost to Kessler and his whole career has been spent in one weight division. I think it would be fair for the most part to compare his split decision win over Dirrell to Martinez's draw with Cintron although I believe Martinez beat Cintron squarely, and Froch's win was disputable. But, if that was your opinion, I wouldn't argue very much.

Bernard Hopkins lost to Joe Calzaghe and drew with Jean Pascal and in my view he has avoided Chad Dawson to an extent. It's hypocritical to rank his win over Kelly at 170 as a defining win and not rank it even more so for Martinez when Martinez beat Kelly at his more natural weight class, where Kelly performed best at least.

Andre Ward's biggest win is over Kessler. Bika has lost every time he stepped up. AA is really a middleweight and only average at best. That says enough. I believe that Ward should be top 5 p4p right now because he has looked on a different level than a lot other fighters.

I hear what you're saying. I feel that way about the whole top ten once you get past #2.

But I can't make too good of a case for anyone over Martinez, except Pac, Floyd, and possibly BHop and Donaire. I think #3 (or 2 if you take Floyd out) is pretty fair.

But honestly, I like BHop's win over Pavlik more than Martinez' win. Kelly was in worse shape going into the fight with Martinez and looked like he was headed to victory if you stop the tape in round 8 or so. Pavlik was on IV's before the fight with Martinez after the weigh-in. He just hit a wall. But was doing pretty good. Against Hop, he never looked like he was gonna win.

I do think Martinez is a bit overcredited so fast but I understand why. P4P is really about "how" you beat your opposition. Donaire doesn't have a better resume than Martinez but Donaire looks special beating his opponents. And now Donaire is the next big thing. But what Martinez has done recently is quite special looking. The Cintron fight was a completely one sided fight and Martinez actually KOed Cintron but Cintron was given a helluva rest then a bogus draw. Basically Martinez was asked to KO his opponent twice to get one KO credit. He made his fights with Pavlik and Dzinziruk look like a mismatch fight and his KO of Williams was jaw dropping. Yes, I'd like to see Martinez do more to get more credit but his opposition and how he is beating his opposition is right up there with anybody not named Pacquiao. I can't see how anyone can argue him out of the top 5 p4p because you have to breakdown the guys before him in the same light. Mayweather shouldn't count and Pacquiao is a given. Which guys are better qualified to put him out of the top 3 or top 5 and why?

Good posts guys. I do agree with you all really, I think he probably is top 4 p4p.

I just don't think he has done a whole lot to get there, but I think that says more about the fact that boxing is a little empty of established superstars right now.

Guys like Mosley, Cotto, Jones Jr, Calzaghe, Hopkins etc are all now past their primes or retired and we are waiting for the future stars to prove themselves.

I do agree Martinez has done as much as anyone to prove himself the best outside of Manny and Floyd.

It's just that if you put Pavlik on with any of the guys at 168, Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute, maybe Glen Johnson and Dirrell too, he would be a definite underdog. The first four especially would be expected to win.

I know Martinez beat him at 160, but I'm not sure I put a whole lot more into that. He was an alcoholic, he was struggling with the weight etc.

Do we think Martinez would have beaten the Pavlik that battered Edison Miranda and knocked out Jermain Taylor? Or the Taylor that twice beat Hopkins? Or Hopkins himself? Trinidad, or even Artur Abraham at his prime at 160?

Based on his current performances I'm not convinced, I guess that's why I have a job fully supporting him as one of the p4p top 4. I actually think he is, but only because there is a current dearth of stars in boxing.

That's what I'm saying really.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Good posts guys. I do agree with you all really, I think he probably is top 4 p4p.

I just don't think he has done a whole lot to get there, but I think that says more about the fact that boxing is a little empty of established superstars right now.

Guys like Mosley, Cotto, Jones Jr, Calzaghe, Hopkins etc are all now past their primes or retired and we are waiting for the future stars to prove themselves.

I do agree Martinez has done as much as anyone to prove himself the best outside of Manny and Floyd.

It's just that if you put Pavlik on with any of the guys at 168, Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute, maybe Glen Johnson and Dirrell too, he would be a definite underdog. The first four especially would be expected to win.

I know Martinez beat him at 160, but I'm not sure I put a whole lot more into that. He was an alcoholic, he was struggling with the weight etc.

Do we think Martinez would have beaten the Pavlik that battered Edison Miranda and knocked out Jermain Taylor? Or the Taylor that twice beat Hopkins? Or Hopkins himself? Trinidad, or even Artur Abraham at his prime at 160?

Based on his current performances I'm not convinced, I guess that's why I have a job fully supporting him as one of the p4p top 4. I actually think he is, but only because there is a current dearth of stars in boxing.

That's what I'm saying really.

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I totally see where you're coming from, but we're in a lull here, as far as better resumes, what do you think of Bradley or even Wlad?

Competitive/exciting fights with Cintron and then Williams, dominates Pavlik, crushes Williams in the rematch, and destroys the undefeated Serhiy Dzinziruk, yup, I think he's rated about right. Like someone said, who should be ranked ahead of Martinez P4P?

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Good posts guys. I do agree with you all really, I think he probably is top 4 p4p.

I just don't think he has done a whole lot to get there, but I think that says more about the fact that boxing is a little empty of established superstars right now.

Guys like Mosley, Cotto, Jones Jr, Calzaghe, Hopkins etc are all now past their primes or retired and we are waiting for the future stars to prove themselves.

I do agree Martinez has done as much as anyone to prove himself the best outside of Manny and Floyd.

It's just that if you put Pavlik on with any of the guys at 168, Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute, maybe Glen Johnson and Dirrell too, he would be a definite underdog. The first four especially would be expected to win.

I know Martinez beat him at 160, but I'm not sure I put a whole lot more into that. He was an alcoholic, he was struggling with the weight etc.

Do we think Martinez would have beaten the Pavlik that battered Edison Miranda and knocked out Jermain Taylor? Or the Taylor that twice beat Hopkins? Or Hopkins himself? Trinidad, or even Artur Abraham at his prime at 160?

Based on his current performances I'm not convinced, I guess that's why I have a job fully supporting him as one of the p4p top 4. I actually think he is, but only because there is a current dearth of stars in boxing.

That's what I'm saying really.

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I totally see where you're coming from, but we're in a lull here, as far as better resumes, what do you think of Bradley or even Wlad?

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If heavyweights were given equal merit in p4p rankings then Wlad would have to be up there imo, especially if he beats David Haye. Actually I'd put Haye there too should he win, unified cruiserweight champ, holder of 3 heavyweight belts he would have to go top 4 on merit, it wouldnt even be a question were he fighting in a weightclass outside of heavyweight.

Bradley hasn't beaten a good enough name yet.

I actually agree with Martinez in the top 4, I just think it's a little indictment that boxing is short of some greats right now.

Holyshitballs .... What more does a guy have to do . Martinez is fighting some of the so called at the time toughest fighters with his hands down one of them twice and he ain't good enough ? The dude beat looney ass cintron who I think is highly underated three times In one fight , the only other guy had to plaster his hands to do it . Martinez is kinda like Floyd the klitch's and now recently pac where they could literally and I mean literally knock someone head clean off In the ring and some would talk shit about the lack of bodywork . Hey just my opinion tho no one's really ever right or wrong in these places !

His draw against Cintron was laughable. He was at least 4 pts up on him; plus he KO'd the man and the ref didn't call it. Ref seemed persuaded that it was a headbutt when it was a clear punch.

He arguably won the first fight with PW and then destroyed him in the rematch
He beat Pavlik soundly
He beat up Sergei D.

who are you going to put in front of him?

He should fight someone like Ward or Bute.

Sergio is one of a handful of TRUE champions in the sport. That has great value for me. I also think there are only 4-5 guys tops who deserve some kind of p4p recognition before we are just filling out slots because we have to fill out slots.

Sergio is one of those 4-5 in my view.