A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Ray Robinson... The greatest record of any boxer of all time. The all time p4p king! Credited with producing the greatest body of work.
A couple hundred fights, mostly wins but a couple dozen losses as well.
I'm not going to knock the record, it is what it is but I would like to point out 3 points about Ray often "swept under the rug".
1/ He lost to some pretty shit opponents
2/ His record is padded beyond measure with so many bums it's difficult to keep count.
3/ His film reveals the truth. His defence was wide open and although he looks impressive against his opponents he might not be such the thrashing machine were he to face modern comp.
If Ray struggled with a lummox like Ray LaMotta, how would he cope with a highly trained young machine such as Saul Canelo Alverez? Or Gennady Golovkin?
Let me tell you a little secret, nobody can have 100+ fights, let alone 200+ against "good quality" opponents. The damage accumulated is too great and they would reach bust well before the end. Whenever you see a figure like this on old timers records you know they were padding and a quick analysis reveals they are. It's one of the things that seperates modern methods from olden days ones.
Evander Holyfield was once asked to sit for an interview about boxing and its history and he was scripted to say that Ali and other greats were much tougher in their day and so forth. Evander was set to deliver his speech but decided to buck the authority and vented his own thoughts instead, to the disgust of the host. He told that the modern boxer does not have to fight as often anymore yet through more calculated training and recovery they are doubly effective. He told how he had taken what was there in the past and built upon it and was better than all who came before him.
I am inclined to agree with Evander. These old guys going from fight to fight were tough as nails but they were always in a state of depletion and never fully recovered from a fight before they were thrust into the next one. They had not the faintest idea how a boxer should properly prepare themselves. They had more in common with thugs than with athletes.
The argument put forth in my last article seems to have boiled down to an issue of weight and size. That modern HW's are effective due to strength mainly but the ancient warriors had greater skills.
Well I put forth the argument that on film, Ray Robinson looks wide open in defence, telegraphed his shots badly for an opponent of Mayweather and hence would be looking down the barrel of a wide UD loss here. Size and weight play no role here. Mayweather would simply out-skill SRR and make him look completely stupid!
Think not? I would like to know HOW Robinson could beat Mayweather? Because the evidence points strongly towards the other conclusion. And since you would be the one making the seemingly outrageous claim that a fighter from 70 years ago could beat the current p4p champ, a defensive master unheard of in his day, the burden of proof is on you!
So much for the P4P argument against the modern boxers!
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
you are really starting to reach now arent you? the HW division just wasnt enough for you huh?
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
you should create a blog so you can post your foolishness.
Now what happens if ray had the same training modalities that todays modern fighters have? You think ray would fight exactly how they fought way back then.
Whats next, A look at bruce lee vs jet li.
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
interesting read, though I would ask for images or animated gifs to back it up
I could help you with that, I mean making gifs and such , if you'd be interested in blogging at my website
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Again, if Robinson lived in this area... He'd have the extra half a century of sports science, nutrition, PEDs and sporting history/experience to learn from.
You can only judge a guy relative to the context of their area.
Like I've already said...
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Who are the 'pretty shit' opponents that Robinson lost to? Who is Ray LaMotta? Jake LaMotta was a pretty good fighter, a guy that went out of his way to fight the best guys around.
More thugs than athletes? My gracious...those guys fought a lot because that was how you make a living, you work at your trade. That is also how you get good at something, and it shows.
For the most part, the skill level in modern boxing is horrible. Guys take turns punching- you don't see much slipping and countering, the bobbing and weaving. No class, for the most part.
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Ray Robinson is the Greatest ever. He never ducked anyone in his era and Lamotta was a middleweight fighting a welterweight. Also not only did Ray avenge the loss he fought a tune up fight all in a 3 week span. Most of his losses were when he was in his twilight years. And out of 200 fights he was knocked out once by heat exhaustion. The sad part is that there are only a few dozen of his fights recorded and we will never see how truly great he was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3Fh6FTaTE
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
It's a good point, but it's a very unpopular point, so you will get thrashed.
Boxing fans don't want to hear this stuff. They have "golden-age fever". Unless you want to talk about how great the old guys were, how tough they were, how they'd make our modern fighters look foolish in the ring, your opinion is not wanted.
There are guys on here who will argue the virtues of a guy they've never even seen fight. They'll tell you how fighter x who they've never seen would have whipped a guy like Pernell Whitaker, Roy Jones, or Floyd Mayweather.
It's just nonsense.
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
With all due respect...I have asked this before and I ask again...What is your boxing history? I understand that it is natural to think most highly of the guys you watched as you learned, I did that myself...
If Mayweather were to fight Robinson, he would not be able to lay back and pick his spots. He would have to fight. When he fought, he would get hit and hurt. Then he would get defensive. Robinson would probably stop him, though Mayweather could hang on to the end, if he kept within himself. If he fights, he gets stopped, and he'll have to fight.
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Yet another fishing expedition. As much as some of us may overestimate the written word of boxing history lacking in film evidence to prove so also do many underestimate fighters and eras past and the incredible pace they had to contend with. Just as is the case with much of history, the cameras were not around. That in and of itself is not proof that historians are wrong. Nothing will be solved in this thread anymore then it did in all those threads that came before it on the same subject matter. W/o a time machine its futile;D
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Yet another fishing expedition. As much as some of us may overestimate the written word of boxing history lacking in film evidence to prove so also do many underestimate fighters and eras past and the incredible pace they had to contend with. Just as is the case with much of history, the cameras were not around. That in and of itself is not proof that historians are wrong. Nothing will be solved in this thread anymore then it did in all those threads that came before it on the same subject matter. W/o a time machine its futile;D
We can only hope Stewie Griffin can rebuild his time machine so we can find out who are the best boxers and we can bring back Brian.
Until then all hope is lost.
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Yet another fishing expedition. As much as some of us may overestimate the written word of boxing history lacking in film evidence to prove so also do many underestimate fighters and eras past and the incredible pace they had to contend with. Just as is the case with much of history, the cameras were not around. That in and of itself is not proof that historians are wrong. Nothing will be solved in this thread anymore then it did in all those threads that came before it on the same subject matter. W/o a time machine its futile;D
My problem is not so much with what can or can't be proven, but with the fallacies that boxing fans use regarding the old timers and the inconsistent criteria that is used to judge old and modern fighters.
We are completely unrelenting in our demands for fighters to constantly prove their worth to us. We don't care about potential, or what the experts say, we only care about seeing results.
...but with the old timers, we have no problem judging a guy purely on newspaper clippings. "BENNY LEONARD DAZZLES IN IMPRESSIVE UNANIMOUS DECISION WIN" - Nice! I bet he'd whip Sweetpea's ass!
People also seem to assume more fights = better fighter, which is idiotic. In 200 of SRR's fights, how many of those were against actual tough competiton? I would bet the number is extremely low. How much can you really learn beating up a stiff in some smokey banquet hall? Floyd could fight a bum every 2 weeks and run his record up to 200-0 if he wanted to. Would people be impressed?
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
Where was part 1 - the heavyweights? you lost that and now you start this which is even more stupid.
SRR would batter the living shit out of Floyd as would Hearns and Leonard. Get over yourself.
Re: A look at Robinson and Mayweather- Modern vs Old timers part 2!
This thread supports the observation that all glory of men will be passing away sooner or later
No matter how good, famous, rich, etc you were, someday it all will de doubted and then forgotten
