alot people mention bowe against tyson lewis ect but what about this how do u think this would go
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alot people mention bowe against tyson lewis ect but what about this how do u think this would go
Id take Bowe, not sure how but im quite confident he would outbox Vitali, most likely for a one sided decision.
i reckon it would go 12 rounds if there are not cuts like with lewis but i see vitali give bowe trouble with his jab like tony tubbs did then i see bowe getting the grips with it come back after 5th round prolly win by about 8 rounds to 4 or 7 rounds to 5Quote:
Originally Posted by cockey cockney
Bowe around the time of teh 1st Holyfiled was a good , fundamentally sound , capable fighter and his left hand combined with his right uppercut would be too much for Vitali to cope with . Bowes a better all around fighter and provided he didnt take chances with his chin hanging out he could dominate Vitali without too much trouble.
The right uppercut Lewis landed easily against Vitali was Bowes best punch and I doubt Klitschko has the movement or defensive skill to avoid the jabs and overhand rights .
Bowe by mid - late round stoppage
Its hard to say becasue the Lennox Lewis that fought Vitali, fouhgt with a style not to dissimilar to Bowes (albeit, it was only because Lewis was too out of shape ot compose himself in his usuall manner).
Lennox, aside form getting the W, failed in his plan, sustaining a slight ass whoping.
The on top style of Bowe carrying less then Lewis' power but with slightly more workrate and sharpness is a very difficukt equation to unravel.
I dunno, i still like Vitali's awrkward, calculating style against the slightly gun-ho Bowe :-\
Vitali.
Too much chin, to much power, to good of a jab, & honestly...I just think that his style of fighting would have given any of the heavyweights out there in the last 20 years some issues.
I agree with this. Vitali gave Lewis a lot of trouble in their encounter and i feel he wud have gone on to win that, had it not been for the cuts stoppage. Any fighter who gave Lewis this much trouble, would most likely have done the same with other similar fighters.Quote:
Vitali.
Too much chin, to much power, to good of a jab, & honestly...I just think that his style of fighting would have given any of the heavyweights out there in the last 20 years some issues.
bruno was winning aswell against lewis vitalis defence is lacking somewhat i feel bowe would win vitali wouldnt be able to brawl with bowe he would of had to use his jab i still feel bowe by 7-5 or 8-4 plus bowe is totally different fighter to lewisQuote:
Originally Posted by dickilad90
Would have been interesting fight. I think Bowe was by far the more polished fighter, I would give him the edge . Bowe boxed well, but he could also fight on the inside very well . I just think Bowe had more arsenal . better variety of punches. IMO O0
Bowe was SO good when he was in shape and focus. Such a waste of potential, ruined by McDonalds. He could have been one of the greats. I think Bowe at his best handles Vitali pretty easily.
prime bowe (the one that beat holyfield in fight one) beats anyone in the modern era. I think he would outpoint Vitali
The Riddick Bowe of the 1st Holyfield fight would have been a terrific match for prime Vitali! I see a great battle emerging.
A case for this Bowe could strongly be made and I respect all opinions to this effect as he really did have the potential.
I have Vitali winning a UD victory. I think Vitali's superior defence and marginally better outside game nullifies Bowe's better infighting skills to a point.
Vitali lays out fat boy bowe inside 6 , Bowe didn't go near any punchers , because his handlers knew he had a poor chin , look what Golota did to him.
Vitali KO6
the problem is that bowes prime was so short. he is just kind of a nutcase. so if we are talking about that small window where he was sharp and focused, then yes, bowe wins a pretty easy UD, but i couldnt count out vitali totally because even that bowe had mental problems and getting pushed to the limit. so if vitali get start landing shots, bowe may fold. i would put my money on bowe for sure though.
Bowe did not have a dodgey chin, Bowe had good chin. Golota was a gigantic puncher and solid boxer to boot.
I would tip Vitali but not make a substantial bet. But in no way is Bowe overrated, he deserved his credit at his 92 best!
Of course he had good chin. He was by and large a bit of a punching bag as far as defence goes. He could dish it big time inside and out though to compensate.
I say Bowe wildly goes wild and lands a wild overhand haymaker as he usually found a way to land. I say Bowe on a lucky KO in about 6 as he would be slightly outboxed, but it would be close until the KO.
To the brocktonblockbuster;
That is quite a remarkable claim considering Vitali has faced an array of punchers throughout his career and taken numerous big shots here and there and yet has never been KO'd in pro boxing ever and never even been knocked down... Ever!
excellent points indeed. But few could withstand a flush overhand right from Big Daddy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
I am not one of these guys who is going to claim that Vitali Klitschko has a chin of iron. I think Vitali has very good chin but he did avoid most clean shots his whole career and has been checked by the good ones he did cop. So I think die hard Klitschko fans overrate Vitali's chin.
Vitali did have better chin than Golota though who was dropped immediately by Lewis but not by Bowe. Vitali took flush shots from Lewis and Sanders though and was not dropped.
Bowe's power is great obviously but is also a bit overrated. His power was mainly showcased against over matched and/or undersized opponents.
Of the 4 tall superheavyweight technicians of most repute, Wladimir and Lennox are the 2 which have the truly thumping power punches. Vitali and 92 Bowe hit very hard too but are more accumulation hitters and lack the same snap as the other 2.
I agree about Lewis, but not sure about Wlad IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Come on man, Wlad has to be among the hardest punchers of all time, surely that can't be denied. The biggest problem with Wlad is his ability to take a punch. He's a bit like Tommy Morrison in that regard. They can dish out much greater than they can take.
That was the secret of big George's success. A very limited boxer in terms of skill. He would have been useless and easily beaten were he relying on power alone because he was easy to hit, unlike Wlad. But George could bash brains in AND take huge punishment. Wlad instead has to rely on defensive measures (which unfortunately include the much hated huggy bear routine!)
hardest punchers of all time in no particular order:Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers
Razor Ruddock
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis
Joe Frazier
Sonny LIston
sorry but wlad aint in there
You must be joking. Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, sure thing!Quote:
hardest punchers of all time in no particular order:
Rocky Marciano
George Foreman
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers
Razor Ruddock
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis
Joe Frazier
Sonny LIston
sorry but wlad aint in there
Ruddock also hits very hard and may or may not rate with them.
Lyle and Shavers and Liston hit hard too but nowhere near as hard as the others, there power is gauged against what are today cruiserweights. When you check the performance against real HW's they are nothing special.
Joe Frazier is a featherfist. He would pose absolutely no punch threat today or throughout the 90's and 00's whatsoever and Rocky Marciano weighed 185lbs. There is not a modern HW who he could outpunch!
Wladimir is probably the hardest puncher of all time.
hmmm...not so sure you know your boxing history. i think you might just be making stuff up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
Stats are there mate. Watch your men again and pull up there records. Knock off all the bums and cruisers off the records and you will see some of the <cough> "all time greats" are more like "one time greats".
I mean come on, this guy is rating Rocky Marciano's power who beat not a single 200+ lb HW of any credibility at all against Wladimir Klitschko who has among the best KO performance all time against the heaviest opponents of all time. Just look at them and look at them punch, one of them is a steel hammer and one was more a rubber mallet.
Vitali would school Bowe because Vitali fights SMART Bowe routinely gave up his height and reach to mix it up. Plus Bowe NEVER fought a big time power puncher, Vitali would work him over.
As for "hardest punching heavyweights all-time" Wlad gets the KO's so I don't know why you wouldn't rate him other than you're spiteful and don't like his style. I wouldn't say he hits THE HARDEST, but he's one of the best power punchers. He's accurate, he stops his opponents, and he's got power in both hands his left hook is extremely underrated.
Yeah I'll accept that but to say Marciano hits harder is out of ones mind!
first off, pretty much every fighter that shavers fought said that he is the hardest hitter that they have ever faced so i trust them over what i see. you cant dispute what the fighters say. and im not saying that wlad isnt a hard hitter, but if you are saying to knock off all of the bums from the fighters records then that would really take out just about all of wlads opponents. and just because certain fighters are smaller doesnt mean that their chin is necessarily worse. for example, joe louis doesnt have the best chin in the world but it was solid and marciano KO'd him. im sure that hayes chin is worse and klit couldnt KO him and haye and louis are about the same size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
if you really want to see who hits hard, see who each fighter has knocked out or down or at least hurt that is considered to have a good chin.
again, im not arguing that marciano hits harder than wlad but im saying that if we are talking about just punching power without regard to skill then shavers and lyle would definitely have to be high on the list. max baer would be up there too.
I say Vitali beat Bowe and Bowe beats Wlad
Well you make some good cases there but I do disagree. The first part is the most majorly objectionable point though- That the fighters Shaver's fought claimed Shaver's was the hardest puncher and their word cannot be disputed. I don't equate fighters talk with real analysis. You could argue that it's the punches you don't feel as hardest have the most concussive affect and fighters talk quite a bit of bull at times (not all though). Shavers was kind of like the "lagging behind" boy they felt sorry for imo and by pumping him up, pumped up the standing of those who fought him. It's amusing that all those guys who claimed Shaver's hit the hardest all BEAT Shaver's!Quote:
first off, pretty much every fighter that shavers fought said that he is the hardest hitter that they have ever faced so i trust them over what i see. you cant dispute what the fighters say. and im not saying that wlad isnt a hard hitter, but if you are saying to knock off all of the bums from the fighters records then that would really take out just about all of wlads opponents. and just because certain fighters are smaller doesnt mean that their chin is necessarily worse. for example, joe louis doesnt have the best chin in the world but it was solid and marciano KO'd him. im sure that hayes chin is worse and klit couldnt KO him and haye and louis are about the same size.
if you really want to see who hits hard, see who each fighter has knocked out or down or at least hurt that is considered to have a good chin.
again, im not arguing that marciano hits harder than wlad but im saying that if we are talking about just punching power without regard to skill then shavers and lyle would definitely have to be high on the list. max baer would be up there too.
Ali fought Foreman- FOREMAN and took a trip to hospital afterwards from the beating, yet claimed Shaver's hit harder. Holmes was KO'd by Tyson, the only KO loss of his career and was visibly spanked, yet claimed Shaver's hit harder. Sorry but this is BS. The only noteworthy opponent Shaver's beat was Ken Norton- a glass jawed HW! So much for Earnie Shavers!
No just because a fighter is smaller does not mean they have weaker chin. There are exceptions, Evander Holyfield has among the strongest chins yet was never very large for example. But there is clear and irrefutable proof that as a general statistical rule, the heavier they are the harder they hit and the harder the punch they can take, it's just common sense. I would say that 185lb Marciano falls a little below par in the chin category as well. Atleast you can say it was not tested.
Oh yeah but he fought Louis and KO'd him. Well mate Louis was a pensioner when Rocky got him and totally shot. Imo Joe Louis would probably get the drop on Marciano were he to have fought him prime. And in any case Louis's own chin was not solid as you claimed. He was in fact almost KO'd by an emporer penguin named Tony Galento! David Haye has not the best chin you are correct there but he is so slick and was so cautious in that fight that Wladimir was unable to land much on him (and likewise of course).
Honestly by your own criteria, Max Baer and Marciano have no claim to anything regarding power punching. They fought nothing comparable to modern opponents. Ron Lyle I'll give you, he decked Foreman who has terrific chin!
You say Wladimir has fought bums, he fought a few, most boxers do but he has also fought a wealth of talented fighters with solid records. His opponents on the whole are just as good as what Lennox had. This and they are far stronger than those past warriors fought. Wlad KO'd Peter and Mercer- great chins!
I really see no comparison between such competitors and honestly believe all of those smaller guys would best be considered against the cruiser division today.
Gennady Golovkin... SMASHES up Marciano and maybe Frazier as well! =P lol
the problem is that people being in their primes is different than when they arent. for example, i dont think tyson KO's a prime holmes. i think that a prime holmes beats tyson pretty easily. shavers knocked down holmes and had him really hurt. the difference in the fights could be the will to win and get up. just like louis as you said, he was older when he lost to marciano. im not saying that louis wouldnt have won if he were in his prime, but he was knocked out cold. it had nothing to do with his will. same with wlad. he fought mercer when he was old and peter never showed that he had a good chin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
wlad has nowhere near as good of fighters as lewis did. all of their opponents that were in common, wlad fought way later when they were old. i dont care about records. i think that byrd is probably the only fighter that wlad beat that i consider a pretty good fighter. that doesnt mean that he doesnt still hit really hard, but IMO even marciano would have about as high of a KO percentage in this HW division.
Andrew Golota........ GOLOTA....... had Bowe outta there before developing brain-freeze and thinking it was ok to punch the other guy repeatedly in the balls. Vitali is/was a significantly better fighter than Golota. Thus, Vitali easily handles the lazy, underachieving Bowe.
Ok I can appreciate some of those ideas. The will to get up may play a big part and on these occasions we've outlined age seems to be a recurring theme.
I think sometimes though, by no means all, an older version of a warrior can have better punch resistance than their younger self. Particularly big George and Muhammad Ali. I think 2nd career George can take a better punch than younger. Prime George was wobbled, dropped or KO'd by Lyle, Ali and Young. Old George took beatings from Holy and Moorer and Briggs and was not wobbled and took the bombs from Tommy Morrison, a very hard puncher and survived the entire fight without a KD.
Ali of the 60's was basically knocked out if you dis allow extra time by 185lb Henry Cooper. Ali of the 70's with beaten from pillar to post in nearly all of his 70's fights by stronger opponents than in the 60's and won most of them.
The reason I believe is they were both much heavier in their returns than before.
Anyway we cannot reach agreement on Wlad's opponents. I think they are on the whole good oppoenents. Wlad just happens to be so good he can dominate. I see no opponent on Wlad's list since early times that Marciano would be able to survive let alone beat. I don't rate Marciano at all in this era. Of course others share a different view.
i can understand where you are coming from on certain points. my problem with the foreman example is that ali's KO and youngs KD were because of exhaustion rather than being hurt. lyle just hits really hard. foreman said that lyle and cooney were the hardest hitters he faced. i agree that he got hit by big punchers when he was older but he stayed up because he conserved energy a lot better. you would be surprised how much fatigue can affect a KO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power
and i agree that we are 100% apart on the whole wlad's opponent thing because if you think that they are good opponents then i dont even know what to say anymore. and also i dont know what to say about marciano not being able to beat people like ray austin, ibramigov, chambers, mormeck, etc. so no comment i guess.
Bowe was fantastic in the first Holyfield epic (and pretty good in the 2nd & 3rd too..). It's a shame he let it all go and there was all that Rock Newman shit and dumping the WBC belt in the bin instead of fighting Lewis.
A peak Bowe was arguably the best of the lot but you have to be a champ in the mind as well as the body and that's where it all fell down for him. Peak Bowe would have beat the Klitschckos. But then again so would a peak Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Holmes, etc.
With Futch in Bowe's corner anything was possible. But Bowe ducked Lewis for whatever reason which tells me that he lacked something mentally or skill wise. I think Vitali would get rocked a few times especially if he gets close and eats a few uppercuts but will outlast Big Daddy and bust him up in 9 rounds.
is Max Power huffin'? Just wondering........as he just makes up stuff as if its true. E.G. if Ali and Foreman both say Lyle hit the hardest, he says its bullshit. If Joe Louis and Archie Moore said that Marciano hit harder than anybody and that their bodies felt like they had been hit all over with a black jack, he thinks it doesnt mean anything.
Strange.
Yeah well blockbuster with an name like that you WOULD support such a position wouldn't you.
I don't care if you are a fan of Marciano, I myself am a fan of Chris Byrd. But fan or not I freely admit that Chris could not punch through the surface tension of water and neither could Rocky.
Joe Louis and Archie Moore were probably not lying, I'm not really disputing that. Louis was a corpse and took the full brunt of the Rocks fists and Archie Moore was a likewise geriatric blown up middle weight!
The opponents of the Klitschko's would not even be allowed under the current rules of professional boxing to knock such weak opponents out and that's all there is to it.
As for Shaver's, are you seriously gonna tell me hit can hit harder than Tyson and Foreman? Even despite the size differences and the quality of their records aside (Shaver's was a smallish bum and Tyson and Foreman were bigger heavies with solid records)- If you can show me the way to a You Tube clip where Shaver's can be seen putting down an opponent with a punch which looks more devastating than one of Mike's or George's than I will eat crow! Honestly I can't believe it!