Prime Riddick Bowe v Vitali Klitschko

[Max Power]

first off, pretty much every fighter that shavers fought said that he is the hardest hitter that they have ever faced so i trust them over what i see. you cant dispute what the fighters say. and im not saying that wlad isnt a hard hitter, but if you are saying to knock off all of the bums from the fighters records then that would really take out just about all of wlads opponents. and just because certain fighters are smaller doesnt mean that their chin is necessarily worse. for example, joe louis doesnt have the best chin in the world but it was solid and marciano KO'd him. im sure that hayes chin is worse and klit couldnt KO him and haye and louis are about the same size.

if you really want to see who hits hard, see who each fighter has knocked out or down or at least hurt that is considered to have a good chin.

again, im not arguing that marciano hits harder than wlad but im saying that if we are talking about just punching power without regard to skill then shavers and lyle would definitely have to be high on the list. max baer would be up there too.

Well you make some good cases there but I do disagree. The first part is the most majorly objectionable point though- That the fighters Shaver's fought claimed Shaver's was the hardest puncher and their word cannot be disputed. I don't equate fighters talk with real analysis. You could argue that it's the punches you don't feel as hardest have the most concussive affect and fighters talk quite a bit of bull at times (not all though). Shavers was kind of like the "lagging behind" boy they felt sorry for imo and by pumping him up, pumped up the standing of those who fought him. It's amusing that all those guys who claimed Shaver's hit the hardest all BEAT Shaver's!

Ali fought Foreman- FOREMAN and took a trip to hospital afterwards from the beating, yet claimed Shaver's hit harder. Holmes was KO'd by Tyson, the only KO loss of his career and was visibly spanked, yet claimed Shaver's hit harder. Sorry but this is BS. The only noteworthy opponent Shaver's beat was Ken Norton- a glass jawed HW! So much for Earnie Shavers!

No just because a fighter is smaller does not mean they have weaker chin. There are exceptions, Evander Holyfield has among the strongest chins yet was never very large for example. But there is clear and irrefutable proof that as a general statistical rule, the heavier they are the harder they hit and the harder the punch they can take, it's just common sense. I would say that 185lb Marciano falls a little below par in the chin category as well. Atleast you can say it was not tested.

Oh yeah but he fought Louis and KO'd him. Well mate Louis was a pensioner when Rocky got him and totally shot. Imo Joe Louis would probably get the drop on Marciano were he to have fought him prime. And in any case Louis's own chin was not solid as you claimed. He was in fact almost KO'd by an emporer penguin named Tony Galento! David Haye has not the best chin you are correct there but he is so slick and was so cautious in that fight that Wladimir was unable to land much on him (and likewise of course).

Honestly by your own criteria, Max Baer and Marciano have no claim to anything regarding power punching. They fought nothing comparable to modern opponents. Ron Lyle I'll give you, he decked Foreman who has terrific chin!

You say Wladimir has fought bums, he fought a few, most boxers do but he has also fought a wealth of talented fighters with solid records. His opponents on the whole are just as good as what Lennox had. This and they are far stronger than those past warriors fought. Wlad KO'd Peter and Mercer- great chins!

I really see no comparison between such competitors and honestly believe all of those smaller guys would best be considered against the cruiser division today.

[Max Power]

Gennady Golovkin... SMASHES up Marciano and maybe Frazier as well! =P lol

[powerpuncher]

first off, pretty much every fighter that shavers fought said that he is the hardest hitter that they have ever faced so i trust them over what i see. you cant dispute what the fighters say. and im not saying that wlad isnt a hard hitter, but if you are saying to knock off all of the bums from the fighters records then that would really take out just about all of wlads opponents. and just because certain fighters are smaller doesnt mean that their chin is necessarily worse. for example, joe louis doesnt have the best chin in the world but it was solid and marciano KO'd him. im sure that hayes chin is worse and klit couldnt KO him and haye and louis are about the same size.

if you really want to see who hits hard, see who each fighter has knocked out or down or at least hurt that is considered to have a good chin.

again, im not arguing that marciano hits harder than wlad but im saying that if we are talking about just punching power without regard to skill then shavers and lyle would definitely have to be high on the list. max baer would be up there too.

Well you make some good cases there but I do disagree. The first part is the most majorly objectionable point though- That the fighters Shaver's fought claimed Shaver's was the hardest puncher and their word cannot be disputed. I don't equate fighters talk with real analysis. You could argue that it's the punches you don't feel as hardest have the most concussive affect and fighters talk quite a bit of bull at times (not all though). Shavers was kind of like the "lagging behind" boy they felt sorry for imo and by pumping him up, pumped up the standing of those who fought him. It's amusing that all those guys who claimed Shaver's hit the hardest all BEAT Shaver's!

Ali fought Foreman- FOREMAN and took a trip to hospital afterwards from the beating, yet claimed Shaver's hit harder. Holmes was KO'd by Tyson, the only KO loss of his career and was visibly spanked, yet claimed Shaver's hit harder. Sorry but this is BS. The only noteworthy opponent Shaver's beat was Ken Norton- a glass jawed HW! So much for Earnie Shavers!

No just because a fighter is smaller does not mean they have weaker chin. There are exceptions, Evander Holyfield has among the strongest chins yet was never very large for example. But there is clear and irrefutable proof that as a general statistical rule, the heavier they are the harder they hit and the harder the punch they can take, it's just common sense. I would say that 185lb Marciano falls a little below par in the chin category as well. Atleast you can say it was not tested.

Oh yeah but he fought Louis and KO'd him. Well mate Louis was a pensioner when Rocky got him and totally shot. Imo Joe Louis would probably get the drop on Marciano were he to have fought him prime. And in any case Louis's own chin was not solid as you claimed. He was in fact almost KO'd by an emporer penguin named Tony Galento! David Haye has not the best chin you are correct there but he is so slick and was so cautious in that fight that Wladimir was unable to land much on him (and likewise of course).

Honestly by your own criteria, Max Baer and Marciano have no claim to anything regarding power punching. They fought nothing comparable to modern opponents. Ron Lyle I'll give you, he decked Foreman who has terrific chin!

You say Wladimir has fought bums, he fought a few, most boxers do but he has also fought a wealth of talented fighters with solid records. His opponents on the whole are just as good as what Lennox had. This and they are far stronger than those past warriors fought. Wlad KO'd Peter and Mercer- great chins!

I really see no comparison between such competitors and honestly believe all of those smaller guys would best be considered against the cruiser division today.

the problem is that people being in their primes is different than when they arent. for example, i dont think tyson KO's a prime holmes. i think that a prime holmes beats tyson pretty easily. shavers knocked down holmes and had him really hurt. the difference in the fights could be the will to win and get up. just like louis as you said, he was older when he lost to marciano. im not saying that louis wouldnt have won if he were in his prime, but he was knocked out cold. it had nothing to do with his will. same with wlad. he fought mercer when he was old and peter never showed that he had a good chin.

wlad has nowhere near as good of fighters as lewis did. all of their opponents that were in common, wlad fought way later when they were old. i dont care about records. i think that byrd is probably the only fighter that wlad beat that i consider a pretty good fighter. that doesnt mean that he doesnt still hit really hard, but IMO even marciano would have about as high of a KO percentage in this HW division.

[TitoFan]

Andrew Golota........ GOLOTA....... had Bowe outta there before developing brain-freeze and thinking it was ok to punch the other guy repeatedly in the balls. Vitali is/was a significantly better fighter than Golota. Thus, Vitali easily handles the lazy, underachieving Bowe.

[Max Power]

Ok I can appreciate some of those ideas. The will to get up may play a big part and on these occasions we've outlined age seems to be a recurring theme.

I think sometimes though, by no means all, an older version of a warrior can have better punch resistance than their younger self. Particularly big George and Muhammad Ali. I think 2nd career George can take a better punch than younger. Prime George was wobbled, dropped or KO'd by Lyle, Ali and Young. Old George took beatings from Holy and Moorer and Briggs and was not wobbled and took the bombs from Tommy Morrison, a very hard puncher and survived the entire fight without a KD.

Ali of the 60's was basically knocked out if you dis allow extra time by 185lb Henry Cooper. Ali of the 70's with beaten from pillar to post in nearly all of his 70's fights by stronger opponents than in the 60's and won most of them.

The reason I believe is they were both much heavier in their returns than before.

Anyway we cannot reach agreement on Wlad's opponents. I think they are on the whole good oppoenents. Wlad just happens to be so good he can dominate. I see no opponent on Wlad's list since early times that Marciano would be able to survive let alone beat. I don't rate Marciano at all in this era. Of course others share a different view.

[powerpuncher]

Ok I can appreciate some of those ideas. The will to get up may play a big part and on these occasions we've outlined age seems to be a recurring theme.

I think sometimes though, by no means all, an older version of a warrior can have better punch resistance than their younger self. Particularly big George and Muhammad Ali. I think 2nd career George can take a better punch than younger. Prime George was wobbled, dropped or KO'd by Lyle, Ali and Young. Old George took beatings from Holy and Moorer and Briggs and was not wobbled and took the bombs from Tommy Morrison, a very hard puncher and survived the entire fight without a KD.

Ali of the 60's was basically knocked out if you dis allow extra time by 185lb Henry Cooper. Ali of the 70's with beaten from pillar to post in nearly all of his 70's fights by stronger opponents than in the 60's and won most of them.

The reason I believe is they were both much heavier in their returns than before.

Anyway we cannot reach agreement on Wlad's opponents. I think they are on the whole good oppoenents. Wlad just happens to be so good he can dominate. I see no opponent on Wlad's list since early times that Marciano would be able to survive let alone beat. I don't rate Marciano at all in this era. Of course others share a different view.

i can understand where you are coming from on certain points. my problem with the foreman example is that ali's KO and youngs KD were because of exhaustion rather than being hurt. lyle just hits really hard. foreman said that lyle and cooney were the hardest hitters he faced. i agree that he got hit by big punchers when he was older but he stayed up because he conserved energy a lot better. you would be surprised how much fatigue can affect a KO.

and i agree that we are 100% apart on the whole wlad's opponent thing because if you think that they are good opponents then i dont even know what to say anymore. and also i dont know what to say about marciano not being able to beat people like ray austin, ibramigov, chambers, mormeck, etc. so no comment i guess.