Looking back at old controversial fights.... (Updated) Jones vs. Tarver I

I wanted to do something where each week I'd name a big fight from the last 10-15 years, and then we'd all go back and watch the fight and post our round-by-round scoring.

I know there have been plenty of threads in the past about fights with close decisions, but it's mostly just people saying, "I thought this guy got robbed," or "the judges were corrupt," etc.
I want this new thread to be a place where you have to actually go back, watch the fight, and post a detailed scorecard to back up your argument.

I figure even if we just get 12-15 posters who would commit to watch the selected fight each week, it would make for some interesting discussion, especially during weeks where there are no fights on HBO, Showtime, etc.

Update:
Fights scored so far:

Morales-Barrera I: Official decision- Morales by SD, 115-112, 114-113, 113-114 (Barrera)
Our scores:
killersheep: 114-113 Morales
Violent Demise: 115-113 Morales
Ice Cold Boxing: 114-114 Draw
yoitsdan: 114-113 Morales
SweetPea: 114-114 Draw
CutMeMick: 115-113 Morales
Game: 115-112 Barrera
Lords Gym: 115-113 Morales


Lewis-Holyfield I: Official Decision- Draw, 115-113 Holyfield, 116-113 Lewis, 115-115 Draw
Our scores:
SweetPea: 118-110 Lewis
Game: 117-112 Lewis
spanky-banky: 115-112 Lewis
killersheep: 117-111 Lewis
Ice Cold Boxing: 116-113 Lewis

Current fight:
Whitaker vs. De La Hoya

Go for it, sounds like a good idea to me :)

Good idea

I'm In!

Not a bad idea. How about the Pernell Whitaker-Wilfredo Rivera fight to start things off?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Not a bad idea. How about the Pernell Whitaker-Wilfredo Rivera fight to start things off?

---

I had a specific fight already in mind to look at first, but Whitaker-Rivera is definitely a good selection. I'd make sure to use that fight at some point pretty soon, maybe even next week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Not a bad idea. How about the Pernell Whitaker-Wilfredo Rivera fight to start things off?

---

I had a specific fight already in mind to look at first, but Whitaker-Rivera is definitely a good selection. I'd make sure to use that fight at some point pretty soon, maybe even next week.

---

Sounds good.

Whitaker Vs De La Hoya
Whitaker Vs Ramirez
Whitaker Vs Chavez
Trinidad Vs De La Hoya
De La Hoya Vs Sturm
Quartey Vs De La Hoya
Hagler Vs Leonard
Holyfield Vs Lewis 1
Griffin Vs Toney 1 and 2
Jones Vs Tarver 1
Taylor Vs Hopkins 1
And that horrible Byrd Victory are all fights I would like to revisit.

Nice touch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brazilianbomber

Whitaker Vs De La Hoya
Whitaker Vs Ramirez
Whitaker Vs Chavez
Trinidad Vs De La Hoya
De La Hoya Vs Sturm
Quartey Vs De La Hoya
Hagler Vs Leonard
Holyfield Vs Lewis 1
Griffin Vs Toney 1 and 2
Jones Vs Tarver 1
Taylor Vs Hopkins 1
And that horrible Byrd Victory are all fights I would like to revisit.

---

Ya, a bunch of these are on the list of fights I was considering. I was debating about whether to even include Whitaker-Ramirez or Whitaker-Chavez, because the fights were so lopsided, there's not even that much to discuss, because it's so obvious they were scored wrong. I'd probably still want to do Whitaker-Chavez though, just because it was such a big fight.
Whitaker-De La Hoya will definitely be one of the first ones to do, because in my opinion it's one of the toughest fights to score in recent decades, neither guy can claim to have clearly won the fight.
Good suggestions.

This is a brilliant Idea bro, what is the first fight then?

hearns vs leonard 2

dela hoya vs shane mosley 2

michael spinks vs larry holmes 2

just thought id mention ones that hasnt been mentioned yet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

This is a brilliant Idea bro, what is the first fight then?

---

Ok here we go. Surprisingly, the one I had in mind for our first fight has not been mentioned yet. I figured we'd start out with a fight that is not only controversial, but also one of the great action fights of this decade. A fight that started what is in my opinion the second greatest trilogy in the history of boxing. The Ali-Frazier of the lower weight classes.

February 19, 2000
Marco Antonio Barrera (49-2) vs. Erik Morales (35-0) at 122 pounds for the WBC and WBO Super Bantamweight Titles.
Morales won by controversial split decision, with two judges scoring 115-112 and 114-113 in his favor, with the third judge scoring the bout 114-113 for Barrera.

Obviously I'm not a moderator, so I don't have the ability to enforce rules, but the one thing I would ask is that people back up their arguments with a scorecard, that's the whole point of the thread idea, to actually go back and score round by round. Once you've posted your scorecard, then you can respond to someone else's, either agreeing or disagreeing.
Have at it.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4| 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Barrera | | | | | | | | | | | | |
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXX
Morales | | | | | | | | | | | | |

here is a bad looking template, if you guys want to use it.

This is a quality thread idea and a big CC to Sweet Pea for thinking it up!! I like it!!! ;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4| 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Barrera | | | | | | | | | | | | |
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXX
Morales | | | | | | | | | | | | |

here is a bad looking template, if you guys want to use it.

---

Quality KS & SP, :coolclick: now im definately in. I was kinda looking for an excuse to go over some of my old DVD's (Bar Dr. Iron fist >:mad )
Now i have the perfect reason ;D

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4| 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Barrera | 10|10 | 9 |9 | 9 | 9 | 10| 10|9 | 9 |9 |10 | 113
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXX
Morales | 9 |9 |10 |10 |10 |10 |9 | 9 |10 | 10 | 10|8 | 114

round 1 - close round, gave it to Barrera as he was in control more often
round 2 - Barrera landed the more dominant shots
round 3 - Morales in control most of the round, able to pot shot
round 4 - even round even trades, slow round
round 5 - incredible round, gave it to Morales as he owned the first two minutes
round 6 - slow round, gave it to Morales he was in control of the ring
round 7- round to Barrera, his hard shots are starting to show their effect
round 8 - round to Barrera, Marco is really turning it on now, Morales firing back, but not keeping up
round 9 - Barrera landed a great combo at the end, but Morales outlanded him throughout the round
round 10- Morales looking good with the right
round 11- Morales doing well targeting MABs eye, good trades throughout
round 12- 10-8 Barrera with the Knockdown


I had Morales edging it, I'm glad I wasn't a judge on this fight, that's for sure
there were 5 rounds on this fight that could have gone either way.

Round 1-Barrera
Round 2-Barrera
Round 3-Morales
Round 4-Morales
Round 5-Morales
Round 6-Morales
Round 7-Barrera
Round 8-Even
Round 9-Morales
Round 10-Morales
Round 11-Morales
Round 12-Barrera

115-113 Morales

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Round 1-Barrera
Round 2-Barrera
Round 3-Morales
Round 4-Morales
Round 5-Morales
Round 6-Morales
Round 7-Barrera
Round 8-Even
Round 9-Morales
Round 10-Morales
Round 11-Morales
Round 12-Barrera

115-113 Morales

---

i remember watching this fight hbo commentators and lederman all scored that memorable 5th round for barrera even though morales outlanded him in that round like 50 to 25 or something like that i could never understand why they scored that round for barrera

round 1= barrera 10-9

round 2= barrera 10-9

round 3= morales 10-9

round 4= barrera 10-9

round5= morales 10-9

round6= morales 10-9

round7= morales 10-9

round8= even 10-10

round9= morales 10-9

round10= morales 10-9

round11= barrera 10-9

round 12 barrera 10-8

114 barrera morales 114

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

i remember watching this fight hbo commentators and lederman all scored that memorable 5th round for barrera even though morales outlanded him in that round like 50 to 25 or something like that i could never understand why they scored that round for barrera

---

Ya I agree. Barrera staggered Morales twice in the round, and I assume that's what it was based on. But there was about 90 seconds in the middle of the round where Morales landed one big straight hand after another.
I only got thru round 10 last night. I'll have my card up once I get home from work and get to watch 11 and 12 this afternoon.
Another questionable thing about the fight that could be discussed is how we choose to score the 12th, since the knockdown was clearly not legit, as the replays show no punch landed.

So that's 2 for Morales and 1 draw Sweetpea, how do you have it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

So that's 2 for Morales and 1 draw Sweetpea, how do you have it?

---

i was quite surpised i scored it a draw but nvm i enjoy reviewing old fights please do some more peace

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

i remember watching this fight hbo commentators and lederman all scored that memorable 5th round for barrera even though morales outlanded him in that round like 50 to 25 or something like that i could never understand why they scored that round for barrera

---

Ya I agree. Barrera staggered Morales twice in the round, and I assume that's what it was based on. But there was about 90 seconds in the middle of the round where Morales landed one big straight hand after another.
I only got thru round 10 last night. I'll have my card up once I get home from work and get to watch 11 and 12 this afternoon.
Another questionable thing about the fight that could be discussed is how we choose to score the 12th, since the knockdown was clearly not legit, as the replays show no punch landed.

---

i didnt bother to watch last round today because i knew it was 10-8 round anyway but good point because knockdown wasnt legit on my card even if morales would of lost 12th round 10-9 he would of won decision but ill watch 12th round later and tell you what i think peace

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

i remember watching this fight hbo commentators and lederman all scored that memorable 5th round for barrera even though morales outlanded him in that round like 50 to 25 or something like that i could never understand why they scored that round for barrera

---

Ya I agree. Barrera staggered Morales twice in the round, and I assume that's what it was based on. But there was about 90 seconds in the middle of the round where Morales landed one big straight hand after another.
I only got thru round 10 last night. I'll have my card up once I get home from work and get to watch 11 and 12 this afternoon.
Another questionable thing about the fight that could be discussed is how we choose to score the 12th, since the knockdown was clearly not legit, as the replays show no punch landed.

---

i didnt bother to watch last round today because i knew it was 10-8 round anyway but good point because knockdown wasnt legit on my card even if morales would of lost 12th round 10-9 he would of won decision but ill watch 12th round later and tell you what i think peace

---

How does that work though, even though it wasn't a legit knockdown, the ref called it as so. Do the judges HAVE to accept that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

i remember watching this fight hbo commentators and lederman all scored that memorable 5th round for barrera even though morales outlanded him in that round like 50 to 25 or something like that i could never understand why they scored that round for barrera

---

Ya I agree. Barrera staggered Morales twice in the round, and I assume that's what it was based on. But there was about 90 seconds in the middle of the round where Morales landed one big straight hand after another.
I only got thru round 10 last night. I'll have my card up once I get home from work and get to watch 11 and 12 this afternoon.
Another questionable thing about the fight that could be discussed is how we choose to score the 12th, since the knockdown was clearly not legit, as the replays show no punch landed.

---

i didnt bother to watch last round today because i knew it was 10-8 round anyway but good point because knockdown wasnt legit on my card even if morales would of lost 12th round 10-9 he would of won decision but ill watch 12th round later and tell you what i think peace

---

How does that work though, even though it wasn't a legit knockdown, the ref called it as so. Do the judges HAVE to accept that?

---

well just watched 12th round and without knockdown i prolly would of scored 12th round even not much in it 12th round could of gone either way without knockdown

Cool thread - gona find the fight and watch it later - will post my score tomorrow - should be able to find fight on one of El Gamos threads :-\

That was a hint for somebody to post it by the way ;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

How does that work though, even though it wasn't a legit knockdown, the ref called it as so. Do the judges HAVE to accept that?

---

I'm not sure what the answer is to this.
I'm not certain if they "have" to take a point off, or if it's just common practice to take a point off. I believe they have the option, because I know there are cases where a guy gets knocked down 3 or more times, but they still score it only 10-7 instead of 10-6, 10-5, etc.
It's a good thing the point didn't factor into the decision, if Barrera had won by split decision, and the cards were 114-113 (6 rounds even with the knockdown point taken off), then the controversy would've been out of control.

I had it 114-113 Morales, scored exactly the same as killersheep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

How does that work though, even though it wasn't a legit knockdown, the ref called it as so. Do the judges HAVE to accept that?

---

I'm not sure what the answer is to this.
I'm not certain if they "have" to take a point off, or if it's just common practice to take a point off. I believe they have the option, because I know there are cases where a guy gets knocked down 3 or more times, but they still score it only 10-7 instead of 10-6, 10-5, etc.
It's a good thing the point didn't factor into the decision, if Barrera had won by split decision, and the cards were 114-113 (6 rounds even with the knockdown point taken off), then the controversy would've been out of control.

---

I guess that a round that is won is 10-9, a round with a knockdown OR is completely dominated without a knockdown is 10-8, and if there are multiple knockdowns it can be judged 10-7, never anything lower than a 7 without penalty though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by killersheep

I guess that a round that is won is 10-9, a round with a knockdown OR is completely dominated without a knockdown is 10-8, and if there are multiple knockdowns it can be judged 10-7, never anything lower than a 7 without penalty though.

---

Yeah I see what you're saying. I think the real question we need to answer is if there's a knockdown that is not legit, like the Morales knockdown in the 12th, can the judge legally score that round either 10-9 Morales or 10-10, or is he forced to give Morales no more than 9 points for the round?

I may have to look up my CD for that fight. As far as I can remember, I gave the fight to Marco. There is no way Morales won that fight. Marco was whooping Morales, pushing him, hitting the harder shots. It was nice, even in that good Rd 5. It was all Marco. It felt like Morales was a support cast in that one.

Let me dig that fight and I will give my score card as well

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrB

I may have to look up my CD for that fight. As far as I can remember, I gave the fight to Marco. There is no way Morales won that fight. Marco was whooping Morales, pushing him, hitting the harder shots. It was nice, even in that good Rd 5. It was all Marco. It felt like Morales was a support cast in that one.

Let me dig that fight and I will give my score card as well

---

That's where you have to ask what are you really judging, because there are many factors.

Ring generalship, punches landed, effective punches, etc.

There were many rounds that Morales outlanded Barrera 2-1, but Barrera was obviously doing more damage.

This thread is outstanding. I am surprised how many people scored it for Morales, I remember so many people saying they thought Barrera won. I need to watch it again because I have not seen it in years, I guess the Judges got it right.

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Barrera | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 114
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Morales | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 114

I thought Barrera started the fight very strong, and finished strong, but he gave away a bunch of rounds between 3-7 because he just didn't throw enough punches. He let Morales outwork him.
I had a tough time scoring the 9th. I think it was an even round, but I generally try to avoid scoring rounds even, so I gave it to Barrera for hurting Morales in the final seconds. But I could've given the 9th to Morales or scored it even.
I scored the 12th 10-9 instead of 10-8 because it wasn't a legit knockdown, there was no punch landed.
There were a bunch of rounds in this fight that were tough to score, so either guy could have won the fight. I certainly don't think Barrera was robbed like many people believe. It was simply too close of a fight with too many close rounds to say that either guy clearly won or lost.
114-114, draw

great idea Pea ! I gotta dig up that fight and give it a watch and score it ! :coolclick: to everyone that participates in the scoring.. this is something that will benifit everyone.. so much to learn. fight film is one of the best learning tools there is in boxing ! O0

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4| 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Barrera | 10| 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10| 10| 9 | 9 | 9 |10 | 113
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Morales | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 |10 | 10 | 10 | 8 | 115


I scored the fight for Morales, when I first saw it and I scored it like this after seeing it just now...... I don't see it any other way.....

seems people are going with morales i would of give it to morales its just that 10-8 round made it a draw even though it wasnt a knockdown which is a shame if it hadnt of been for 10-8 round morales would of won by 1 point on my card but you have to count 10-8 round so its draw on my card and lederman giving barerra these rounds i thought wtf what are you looking at i remember one round cant remember which morales practically beat him for most of the round and he gave it to barrera lederman must of been drunk that night ;)

and cc sweetpea cant wait for next fight i love seeing how different people scored close controversial fights

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SweetPea

| 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | total
Barrera | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 114
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Morales | 9 | 9 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 114

I thought Barrera started the fight very strong, and finished strong, but he gave away a bunch of rounds between 3-7 because he just didn't throw enough punches. He let Morales outwork him.
I had a tough time scoring the 9th. I think it was an even round, but I generally try to avoid scoring rounds even, so I gave it to Barrera for hurting Morales in the final seconds. But I could've given the 9th to Morales or scored it even.
I scored the 12th 10-9 instead of 10-8 because it wasn't a legit knockdown, there was no punch landed.
There were a bunch of rounds in this fight that were tough to score, so either guy could have won the fight. I certainly don't think Barrera was robbed like many people believe. It was simply too close of a fight with too many close rounds to say that either guy clearly won or lost.
114-114, draw

---

if a fighter sags down through being tied does it score? If you take a knee because you're tired I'd score it.

It depends on how and what you score. Do half a dozen jabs = one hard hook? Yes jabs count I've seen plenty on fights won soley on it but their are other factors. If a fighter starts a round well, backs off then flurries and hurts the other guy with 20 seconds to go who gets the round?

Sheep. If the ref calls it a knockdown you score it as such otherwise whats the point?