I know this may sound like a funny match but it seems intersting to me.
I think SSR would out point Marciano up until he got knocked out in the 12.
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I know this may sound like a funny match but it seems intersting to me.
I think SSR would out point Marciano up until he got knocked out in the 12.
I hope you understand what i said i think the rock would knock SSR out if i was not clear
Tough one, Marciano was dangerous in any round....SRR had amazing skills and boxing ability.
Nah......still can't pick one :-\
You are talking Sugar Ray Robinson right? If so I just don't know about that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
yes my good friend i am talking about that man and by the way are you form Australia
England mate ;)
SRR would have a chance of stopping rocky on cuts
Yea the rock did cut if you breathed on him but he aslo go mad which would not be good for SRR
Robinson was an all time great but excelled far below 169 pounds. Marciano may find himself being outboxed for a few rounds but once Suzie Q lands then it is Marciano all the way...
Rock would wear him down late on. like Maxim did but much more brutal.
I agree with Bomp. Robinson was outworked by Carmen Basilio and Maxim. Marciano hit twice as hard and would have been walking forward all night.
I agree.....SRR was a badd man....Marciano was a bigger BADDER man.....I think SRR gets caught late as well......Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Well Rocky wins this hands down IMO....let's not forget Joey Maxim handed a beat down to Ray at light heavyweight, and Ray never truly fought over 160 pounds, hell he started as a lightweight it's like saying Floyd Mayweather Jr vs Roy Jones Jr....it's a problem of how much weight the fighter could carry and still be effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Rocky had a great work ethic and Ray couldn't take his power.
I only say Rocky would win because 169 is simply WAAAAAY too heavy for Ray and he couldn't hurt Rocky
I think if they were the same weight it would be closer but that is a big what if because robinson would never achieve that weight and still be in shape to fight a boxing match.
lmao at this guy being devastated that people actually compare a welterweight to his idol, with the sad fact being that Robinson would school him as well ;D ;D ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I don't think SSR would school Marciano because of his size over him and power.
....oh so in this case size doesn't matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Samson3000
You never add anything to the conversation you just try to pick on Rocky Marciano.....were you raped by an Italian or something?
Now come on people i wanted some answers not bashing the boxers.
Well, what about Jimmy Wilde versus Sonny Liston?
Maxim never wore him out the 110 degree weather did. Shit they even changed refs do to heat exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
#1 You mean "Maxim never wore him out" and #2 It ain't exactly like Maxim had an A/C unit strapped to his backQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitMarciano never wore him out the 110 degree weather did. Shit they even changed refs do to heat exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
Yeah I corrected it. I just got up.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong#1 You mean "Maxim never wore him out" and #2 It ain't exactly like Maxim had an A/C unit strapped to his backQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitMarciano never wore him out the 110 degree weather did. Shit they even changed refs do to heat exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
Rocky would have battered SRR into submission.
I don’t think he batters Ray at all and would probably think he was fighting a crowd. The speed difference would be out of this world. Marciano was 5 11 with a 67 inch reach. Robinson was 5 11 with a 73 inch reach. I’m not convinced Marciano would be able to lay a glove on him. Greb beat Tunney arguably twice along with several contending heavyweights. Greb was not a big middleweight. Ketchel was giving Johnson all he could handle and was outweighed by about 40 pounds. And what of Langford? He made a living out of fighting guys twice his size.
If a smaller more agile guy was going to beat Rocky wouldn't Ezzard Charles have done it? Plus Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he beat Greb and Ketchel & Johnson had a deal to go X number of rounds because of film rights or some such nonsense at the time. When Ketchel blasted Johnson and Johnson got back up, Ketchel got decked and eventually woke back up minus a few teeth so let's not get carried away hereQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Who's getting carried away. I simply said that Marciano beating Ray is not a forgone conclusion. Charles did pound him splitting his nose in two and Ray was leaner and faster then Charles. That film right claim is bogus. Greb fought Tunney 5 times and the point about Ketchel was to show that much smaller men fought much larger men all the time and especially in the original 8. P4p actually meant something in those days. Whats getting carried away is the suggestion that Robinson would not have a chance when the exact same thing involving other fighters has played out numerous times over history and ftr Marciano was no bigger then TunneyQuote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIf a smaller more agile guy was going to beat Rocky wouldn't Ezzard Charles have done it? Plus Gene Tunney was a light heavyweight and he beat Greb and Ketchel & Johnson had a deal to go X number of rounds because of film rights or some such nonsense at the time. When Ketchel blasted Johnson and Johnson got back up, Ketchel got decked and eventually woke back up minus a few teeth so let's not get carried away hereQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Carmen Basilio beat Ray Robinson and narrowly lost to him as well....would that not add support to the "Marciano would demolish Robinson" argument?
Pender beat Robinson and so did Turpin. Lamotta beat him the first time they fought. These fights have little or nothing to do with a Marciano match-up
It is true if Ezzard Charles could not do it SRR could not either. It is simple genetics. SRR struggled at light heavy, he is naturally smaller. He would not be able to take Rocky;s punches for too long.
They have plenty to do with it because Basillio was small for a middleweight and he out hustled and out muscled the bigger stronger Robinson....granted Gene Fullmer was felled by SRR and he was more of a bruiser, but Rocky was bigger & stronger and punched a hell of a lot harder 49 wins 43 KO's 100% of them at heavyweight. Now if we said Spinks vs Rokcy or Bob Foster or Dick Tiger or Holyfield or Qawi or Bert Cooper then it's on more even terms for a matchup with Rocky, but Robinson?!?!? COME ON MAN!Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
There is nothing simple about it. You cant just claim someone beats someone cause they have a few pounds on them. 169 vs 188 is not insurmountable odds and its foolish to think it is. Burley pounded guys way bigger then him and as stated earlier Langford made a career out of it but never mind the facts.
If Ezzard Charles or even Jersey Joe Walcott, who were quality boxers, could not do it then how could SRR?Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
:vd: the point I'm making is that you say skill is a bigger part of who wins and who loses, but I've listed Basillio as a guy who although less skilled and smaller than SRR beat him and fought him tooth and nail in a rematch and if Basillio can do that Marciano would crush Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
I just see it the way I see it and that's all. When Ray was 169 he was not in the prime of his career anyway
I already said that Pender, Lamotta and Turpin beat him so skill does not always win. I never said Ray wins. I said its not a forgone conclusion that Marciano does:vd:
If you think Ray gets smoked that's your opinion and I simply do not share that view. I think its just as possible that Robinson wins on points. I've already named guys who fought at a greater size disparity then this hypothetical so people can draw their own conclusions on this style match up.
I don't know why you're using the Basilio fights as markers when Ray fought Basilio in 57/58, a good 5-6 years out of his prime, having taken two years off to go into showbiz. In his prime he was only beaten by LaMotta who outweighed him by more than 2kgs on the night and had arguably one of the greatest chins in boxing history. It's clear simply from looking at SRR's record after his return from hiatus that he was a shadow of his former self:his reflexes, footwork and handspeed had all declined considerably and were only getting worse with each fight, and with the speed went much of his power. So he had to work a lot harder to outbox an opponent and had less chance of causing them trouble with power shots. Have you seen what Ray did to Basilio's eye in the 2nd fight? A prime SRR would have destroyed Basilio, and probably taken him out somewhere in the late rounds. As for this discussion, SRR fought Maxim at a weight Maxim was obviously far more comfortable at and was winning an absolute landslide on the scorecards before he collapsed from heat exhaustion. The fight was held outside in over 100 degree heat and the only man who beat Robinson that day was himself - Maxim never laid a glove on him. So to the question of who would win this proposed fight: it's really very difficult to say, since Marciano weighed more than Maxim and was a much better boxer. Certainly in his prime, with one of the best chins ever, I would give SRR a chance of beating Marciano on points, dancing his way to victory and putting on a boxiing masterclass in the process, but the likelihood is that Ray's power would not have troubled Marciano in the same way it troubled fighters at welter and middleweight, and Ray would have found himself very much on the back foot, at which point knocking out a heavyweight becomes an impossible task. Thus, with nothing to worry about going forward, the probability is that Marciano would have rushed him and thrown bombs until one found its mark and ended the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong:vd: the point I'm making is that you say skill is a bigger part of who wins and who loses, but I've listed Basillio as a guy who although less skilled and smaller than SRR beat him and fought him tooth and nail in a rematch and if Basillio can do that Marciano would crush Robinson.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
I just see it the way I see it and that's all. When Ray was 169 he was not in the prime of his career anyway
If Robinson was effective at the higher weight classes don't you think he would have tried to win the titles up there?
The heat didn't seem to bother Maxim when they fought...one would think more heat would play to the smaller guy's advantage
I don't think it was so much the size, but the style which made the difference: SRR thoroughly out worked Maxim for the first 12 rounds of the fight - dancing around in that heat for 36 minutes throwing punches would wear out most people, and clearly Robinson wasn't used to those conditions, having fought most of his fights indoors or in much milder climates, and overestimated his body's ability to cope with them over the course of a 15 round fight. Maxim didn't do a great deal in the fight, so it's not really surprising that he was less affected by the conditions than Robinson. However, we should also consider that Robinson would have had to make 175 at the weigh in, but probably came down for the fight to roughly his normal weight, whereas Maxim simply stayed at a constant weight no doubt after a certain point in his training camp when his fight weight was achieved. This fluctuation of weight close to the bout may have left SRR's body a little drained come fight time, but I think it was primarily his tactics which defeated him - he should have slowed down the pace once he was way up on the cards in the 10 th or 11th, perhaps putting in a few bursts towards the end of rounds, or saving his energies for a final round assault. But then, it is easy for us to say that from the sidelines - Robinson had to make his decision whilst already tired and probably unsure of where he stood in terms of winning the fight. Perhaps he felt that he couldn't afford to coast or give Maxim an impetus in the fight from which he might have found new life and overpowered an already drained SRR. We just don't know. But as I said, what we may deduce is that Robinson created the conditions of his own surrender by pushing his body past it's limits in extreme conditions, whilst Maxim was left flat footed and consequently did not suffer the same ill effects of the heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Sugar Ray weighed in at 157 for the fight he didn't have to make 175. There's a ceiling for weight limits, there's no floor.
My bad, I got a bit mixed up there with the weights issue for some reason, but my answer as to why Maxim did not suffer the way Robinson did remains the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Its hard to pick against a fighter who has never been truly knocked out in 200 fights. Who has power, finesse, speed and chin. I feel SRR would move, jab and counter Rocky and win on cuts in the later rounds. Great little man beats the good big man.