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What is it about these guys. Some of them seem to have talent but they dont chase the big names from the US, UK, etc. They win an alphabet title and seem happy to defend it at home. Why is this?
Some of the current guys im talking about include
Sergiy Dzinziruk WBO 154 champ. Has beat Daniel Santos.
Arthur Abraham IBF 160 champ.
Zsolt Erdei. WBO 175 champ.
Do they just make too much money too easy in Germany?
They stay in Germany because its impossible for them to lose a decision ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
yes german promoters learned there trade watching Frank von Warren lol
Yeah i get that, but some of them are good fighters, why dont many of them wanna test themselves against the best out there?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
It is - to a certain extent at least - a simple matter of risk-reward calculations.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Erdei probably gets more money for defending against George Blades in Germany, than he would be getting in the US, unless he was fighting a very select group of American fighters (all of whom would be a much bigger risk than Blades btw). That select group of American fighters on the other hand would probably get much bigger paychecks by fighting each other, than they would by fighting Erdei. And it's not like Erdei seems like an easier fight than, say, Tarver or Roy Jones Jr. Hell, if you were offered more money to fight William Joppy than Zsolt Erdei, would you choose the latter?
Also, the thing about a guy like Abraham is that he is arguably the biggest boxing name (outside HW at least) in a population of 90 mio. people. That is bound to bring a lot of money on the table for him... Now, if he went to the US would he even be considered a top50 p4p draw there?
As for robberies, they go both ways. Abraham wouldnt need to look any further than fellow German 160-champ Sturm to reconsider any potential trip to the US.
CC... Thats about what I wanted to say...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_K
There are a few things i disagree with in that post. Sturm was robbed, but u cannot be serious if u think there are as many robberies in the US as there is in Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_K
Another point is that someone like Abrahm may not be a big name in the US now, but he only needs to win one fight, and all of a sudden he is a big name. He could challenge Jermain Taylor, or even Kelly Pavlik to a unification bout, and if he beat one of these guys he'd be able to make many lucrative fights. Erdei could fight Glen Johnson, or Jeff Lacy?
Dzinzruk could fight Ouma, or Spinks.
Ricky Hatton is doing that right now. He could have stayed at home and fought euro fighters and made millions, but he is taking a risk in fighting in the US to buikd himself a legacy, and potentially more money. So why not some of these top German based fighters.
I don't. I was just saying that it happens. Tsypko against Lacy is another example imo. But I agree that this anecdotal evidence; I don't think badly of American judges, my point was merely that any German-based fighter fighting an American in America takes on extra risk. Especially if you compare it to the home advantage that - admittedly - have benefited some German-based fighters when it comes to a decision in Germany. Risk-reward...Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
(Also, since you mentioned Abraham against - of all people - Jermain Taylor, I think it is a relevant point :))
For every Ricky Hatton there is a Joe Calzaghe. Sorry, just couldnt help thinking that.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
I agree with your statements, and I would like them to do cross the pond and meet the best myself. It would be amazing if boxers thought more of legacy and less of money. But the rational answer to your original question remains: Why take on bigger risks for lesser money? And you point to Hatton to prove that if might not make lesser money. Well, kudos to Hatton for having confidence (and a fan-friendly style), but Dzindiruk aint gonna break the bank by beating Ouma, and he sure as hell wont do it by losing to Ouma. So it is a risky business, compared to staying in Germany. And perhaps it just requires more confidence and bigger talents than most boxers - German, UK, Thai, etc - have.
And I really hate to repeat myself, but Sturm tried the trick. It hardly worked. You mentioned Lacy, well then you've got Tsypko. In all honesty there are probably more of those examples than of the Ricky Hattons's.
ive been hearing this for a liitle while that oktay urkal is gonna retire if he does congrats to him
Well thought out and written post. Good to debate wih someone who has good knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_K
Do u think guys like Abraham could make an impact in the US, or are they not quite good enough?
Both Abraham and Sturm will most probably fight in the US next year,at least they showedQuote:
Originally Posted by eagle
more than just a little interest...
Abraham will definitly have big impact in the US...as for Sturm, he already left his mark with the ODH
fight...
As for the other german based fighters I don't know...there was talk that Erdei might have fought
RJJ,but the negotiation failed cause of Jones ridiculous high purse demands...that is actually
a shame,cause IMO Erdei is right now the best light heavy out there and I'm fed up that he is
wasting his time with bums...bad management I guess...
Sergiy Dzinziruk is another boxer I would like to see more often,but he has such a low profile even
in Germany,that I doubt he will ever fight in the US...
With Stipe Drews its the same as with Dzinziruk...
From Ruslan Chagaev I haven't heard of any plans going to the US,but that could actually happen...
I mean he is a heavyweight champ there is no way around the US,even Valuev did his obligatory
fight in th US...
I've nearly forgotten Juan Carlos Gomez...if he will get a title shot he will fight everywhere for it...
Denis Inkin, Juergen Braehmer, Sebastian Sylvester, Wladimir Sidorenko will stay for now in Germany...
I'm pretty sure I've forgotten someone...
Has Abraham gt the goods to hang with some of the monster 160 fighters coming out of the US at the moment like Taylor and Pavlik? He would give away a lot of size to these guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyKickAss
If anyone can beat Pavlik right now and that a big if...its Abraham...
He is a tough guy,who can give and take,while also being highly skilled...
Even tho Miranda nearly beat him?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyKickAss
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Miranda wasn't able to knock him out although Abraham had to fight 8 rnds with a broken jaw...
And it was Miranda who was wobbled from time to time in those rnds...
I believe Abraham,when he said he would have knocked him out if it wouldn't have
been for the broken jaw...
Abraham is definitely a top middleweight...
Fair enough. Any idea who he might fight if he goes to the US?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyKickAss
Well, as you mentioned Gomez yourself, it would be worth noting that two of Oener's other Cuban prospects will have their American debut on the Miranda-Porras undercard (10/30). Yuriokis Gamboa and Yan Barthelemy - both 2004 Olympic Gold medallists - are definitely exciting; especially the former.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyKickAss
One should think that Odlanier Solis will follow soon, and, if he beats McCall, Gomez too.
On another note I find Inkin incredibly frustrating. The guy is ranked in the top5 by all organizations, but he seems completely unwilling to pursue any match outside Germany, leaving him outside of any title speculation. Why? Or do I just have the wrong information (not being in/from Germany)?
If Abraham came stateside, I think it would be a good idea to put him up against Ouma first, he has a name established already and stylewise it would be an entertaining match-up. Another good big name option would be John Duddy, that would also be a competitive match. Jermain Taylor would be the next option, although I think JT would batter Abraham around, prolly not a ko, but a very one-sided contest, ending any further American big name fight opportunities. Abraham vs. Pavlik is of course the big unification bout, but there is no way in hell Abraham could keep up with Kelly's workrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
LOL!! nice!! :coolclick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikkel_K
I think you have it backwards. For every Calzaghe there is a Ricky Hatton. Good post, nice to see someone who can express an opinion and put together a sentence at the same time.
As people have already elaborated on the point, i don't have to repeat that, this situation is uniform to all boxers of all nationalities. They enjoy fighting at home as they benfit from the support of their fanbase directly, they find it easier to promote the fight, they may be in a familiar venue, their confidence is elevated by the implementation of familiar officials or pre fight processes etc. etc.
However i want to turn the mirror on this situation. Why is it that the American boxing public are entitled to accuse English/German/Austrailian/Scandinavian/Russian/Columbian/Mexican fighters of being afraid of fighting outside of their own country? How many Americans regularly travel outside of their respective comfort zone to the back yard of other fighters?
Jeff Lacy did it, Glenn Johnsonn is famous for doing it but how many others?
Two excuses can be used for this refusal to travel.
1)America is the country in which most money can be generated.
2)The fighters fear unfair refereeing/decisions.
Well i believe the solution to these is one and the same. How come other countries can't generate the same money for boxing? Because they are not exposed enough to boxing and the do not have enough big fights to attract capital.
Why is there the potential for unfair decisions? Because there is not enough focus on non-American fights, they are not in the limelight and feel they can get away behind the backs of the larger boxing community.
So the solution: More big fights. Should american big name fighters travel to other boxing nations regularly, undoubtedly it would generate interest. People would begin to anticipate the next big fight, save up so they can go and boxing's popularity would soar due to improved quality of fights, the significance and the respective nations pride at hosting an event such as a world title superfight.
In turn this would remedy the decision/referee problem. With the country and its officials in constant limelight, standards would be improved, wrong decisions and actions would be punishable and avoided.
In summation what is needed to aid boxing globally, to improve the injustices happening in various boxing nations and to stop us all bickering are a few pioneers willing to go and fight. What if Pavlik/Abraham took place in Germany, we'd all watch. HBO wouldn't let anything crooked happen if they adopt Kelly.
If Taylor/Lee were to happen in Ireland. Everybody would watch and a huge crowd would go to see it. If Barerra fought Pac in the Phillipinnes imagine the capital it would raise!
The long and short of it is, everybody is guilty of fighting where they are comfortable if posible and to solve it the big fighters need to lead by example n travel.
They cant CHEAT and keep their belts in other countries! Just ask Beyer, Ottke and Hoffman amongst others. How EMBARRASSING to call these guys champions! :o
Does AA deliver ko's with his fists or with his jaw ??
Thats not entirely true. The reason more money can be generated in the US is cos its the biggest economy in the world. It wouldnt matter if every person in a smaller country was exposed to boxing. They still wouldnt generate the money. The US has more good boxers fighting their( i include Mexicans and other Central/South Americans) than anywhere else in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
The reason for going there is the same reason the best basketballers play in the NBA, or the best baseballers in the Major Leagues, so u can test your skills against the best more often.
Incorrect, in actuality there are other smaller economies that can generate greater capital for their size. i.e America is the greatest economy because it has sheer size advantage and employs modern systems and processes. However take Ireland for example, Bernard Dunne was one of the highest paid boxers in the world at Euro tilte level (pre-Martinez,) In addition Duddy is travelling home simply to avail of greater Money available over here, the more exposure on boxing over here the more the ticket prices go up and the more they are in demand!Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
I have huge respect for US Boxing and it has no doubt thee greatest depth of great boxers in the world no doubt.
However in actuality the majority of world champs recognised by the ring are from outside of the US! :oI didn realise that til just now!
Furthermore i would disagree with ur point in relation to Basketball and Baseball.
I would say the best Basketballers play with the NBA as it is one of the only pro leagues in the world really and as for baseball, well id say America are the best at that because its an American sport?
Germany is the 2nd largest pay per view outlet in the world, its all about money.
Well i didn no that Scrap, but it proves greatly helpful to my point, Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Have a CC on that statement. Sven Otke wouldn't have been able to retire undefeated in the USA with some of his lousy performances, without home judging.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING