How to crack a shelled opponent.

Ive been noticing more and more through my sparring that, I havent the first clue on breaking through or getting around an opponent with his arms walled up. I find that everytime i try to attack a covered opponent, say to the body or head, i just feel like the punches im throwing at him are being stuffed. Like im in too close range to get effective twist on the hook, to the small exposed sides of his head and body. Or else i'll jab a couple times at their guard and try and jab through their forearms, but honestly my attempts so far feel futile, and i usually end up just backing off of them. I also attempt an uppercut between the guard sometimes, but i dont think my uppercutting technique is honed enough yet to be used effectively in sparring. It felt too weak and stuffed by his arms also.

Now im pretty sure this should be basic stuff i should be learned about, but im still sitting there dumbfounded ??? bouncing jabs off of their guard pondering my next move. Soo my online trainers, im calling upon your infinite boxing knowledge. I need a lesson in getting passed/breaking through the walled up guard of my opponent. Ima southy if it makes a difference. In depth instructions are good, but simple fundamental explanations always stick best with me. Any'll do. School me. 8)

When somebody walls up theres usualy 2 reasons they are doing it to defend while they are looking to counter, or they cant work your distance and you will give it to them by what they make you do. Ive always loved fighters who could counter a counter its pure Boxing. While you stick your Jab just touch his glove, but while your doing it never leave yourself in the same distance level and angle keep stepping. Let him take the chance and risk make him do the worrying eventually he will commit and open up thats when your patiance will reep rewards.

High ,low your jabs and send your hooks or crosses to where the guard just had to move from,but you definitly want to hone that uppercut

a low blow will get his hands down every time.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

When somebody walls up theres usualy 2 reasons they are doing it to defend while they are looking to counter, or they cant work your distance and you will give it to them by what they make you do. Ive always loved fighters who could counter a counter its pure Boxing. While you stick your Jab just touch his glove, but while your doing it never leave yourself in the same distance level and angle keep stepping. Let him take the chance and risk make him do the worrying eventually he will commit and open up thats when your patiance will reep rewards.

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so you saying, just keep circling and pecking at his guard until he opens up to answer, then pow! alright thats one i'll remember.

Hi Walker,
Street fighting or MMA-wise, it's relatively easy to "crack" a shelled opponent as there are more lines of attack and avenues available to exploit. However, in boxing, with its sportive limitations and restrictions, it's a bit harder to do. The best tactics to use involve varying your levels, angles, and rhythms of attack to exploit and/or create openings. Even with the best of guards, no one is impenetrable. However, in order to "crack" him effectively and efficiently, you must hone your vision and timing to be able to exploit whatever openings your opponent "presents" to you at any given time at a moment's notice with no pondering thoughts behind your actions. You must develop an instantaneous "stimulus-response" action/reaction to openings with no conscious deliberations. If you have to see and think about attacking an opening or even create/set-up one, you'll be way too slow and get nowhere. Again, you must have trained, "reflexive" actions/reactions, dictated by your opponent's actions/reactions, honed through dynamic, gradient-progressive sparring.

With the aforementioned understood, technically speaking, in order to effectively and efficiently "crack" a crafty shelled opponent you have to discombobulate him through setting/opening him up by attacking high-low, low-high, high-low-high, low-high-low, low-low-high, high-high-low, low-high-high, and high-low-low while simultaneously varying the lines/trajectories and rhythms of attack and doing so in relatively "bewildering" (i.e. no set, predictable pattern) fashion. This ability is best honed through objective-based, attribute-emphasized progressive sparring supplemented with shadow boxing and the other two solo exercises I shared in the "defense" thread.

To start you off, here are four tried-and-true combos to play around with (for us southpaw fighters):
1) A right shovel hook to the body followed by a right uppercut to the head (you can, with more seasoning, throw this combo with the rear left hand instead of the right).

2) A right shovel hook to the body followed by a right hook to the head.

3) A right hook to the head followed by a right shovel hook to the body.

4) A right jab to the body followed by a right hook to the head.

In the first two combos, doubling up on the right shovel hook to the body is a "sweet" thing to do. With the third combo, you can follow up the right shovel hook to the body with a left uppercut to the head or body depending on relative positioning and what's open. With the fourth combo, you can follow up the right hook to the head with a straight left hand to the head or an overhand left to the head depending on relative positioning and distance. IMPORTANT POINT: Don't forget to vary your rhythms. Play around with quarter, half, and full beats. Applying different rhythms to your punches at varying times can make a world of difference with a combo's effectiveness.

As a member alluded to, be cognizant of being countered and/or being set up to be countered by your opponent as you are trying to "crack his shell." Often times, this is his "game" to lull you in. So, after each combo you execute, MOVE (footwork, head, body, and arms as appropriate and able) and have your own guard up (chin down, hands up) until you throw your next combo. Don't ever stay in one/same place...

Another tactic you can do with a nut that's hard to crack, is patiently circle and pepper him with single and double jabs to the head and/or body, inserting the ol' one-two (right jab-straight left hand) to the head and/or body intermittently, to either goad him into countering your potshots so you can counter his counters or to lull him to sleep with one type of rhythm then suddenly pounce on him with a high-low/low-high combo in another rhythm.

Oh, there are some "dirty" tactics you can use to open your shelled opponent too, but... ;)

Anyway, hope this helps...

Take Care,
Lito

ameteur boxing in the states wise, just keep hitting the match will be called cause he ain't defending himself...real simple, real easy...feel cheap? yeah it is...

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Originally Posted by Walker Smith Jr.

Ive been noticing more and more through my sparring that, I havent the first clue on breaking through or getting around an opponent with his arms walled up. I find that everytime i try to attack a covered opponent, say to the body or head, i just feel like the punches im throwing at him are being stuffed. Like im in too close range to get effective twist on the hook, to the small exposed sides of his head and body. Or else i'll jab a couple times at their guard and try and jab through their forearms, but honestly my attempts so far feel futile, and i usually end up just backing off of them. I also attempt an uppercut between the guard sometimes, but i dont think my uppercutting technique is honed enough yet to be used effectively in sparring. It felt too weak and stuffed by his arms also.

Now im pretty sure this should be basic stuff i should be learned about, but im still sitting there dumbfounded ??? bouncing jabs off of their guard pondering my next move. Soo my online trainers, im calling upon your infinite boxing knowledge. I need a lesson in getting passed/breaking through the walled up guard of my opponent. Ima southy if it makes a difference. In depth instructions are good, but simple fundamental explanations always stick best with me. Any'll do. School me. 8)

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Hit him hard on the arms and shoulders then he won't be able to hold his hands up that high ;)

He's got his elbows in and is making "ear muffs" with his gloves? Take your right hand and punch his left glove, moving it out of the way for the left uppercut you throw behind it. Throw a left hook behind both his gloves and pull them down to clear the way for your right hand.
Really, folks, watch some tapes. Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Davey Green and DLH vs R Ruelas come to mind, just off the top.

Ray Leonard may have been the best at beating up a ear muffer. Those left hooks he squeezed in there were nothing nice.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

He's got his elbows in and is making "ear muffs" with his gloves? Take your right hand and punch his left glove, moving it out of the way for the left uppercut you throw behind it. Throw a left hook behind both his gloves and pull them down to clear the way for your right hand.
Really, folks, watch some tapes. Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Davey Green and DLH vs R Ruelas come to mind, just off the top.

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CC#164 Grey,,,,Not many guys utilize hitting the gloves themselves nowadays...I would have to almost beg some of my guys to do it...I would try and drum it in their heads that you are not going to move the arms of a guy with a good shell or who wears muffs...it will taks a while of beating the arms sore and who knows if it will be successful...you might punch yourself out first...Hit the glove and the hand will move....also I used to try to make them understand that if you punch at the wrist when they have the shell up there is a better chance of splitting the gloves...and always double up with the same shot this way if the first one moves the glove or splits the defense then the other gets in and lands flush....

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Hit him hard on the arms and shoulders then he won't be able to hold his hands up that high ;)

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That reminds me of Marciano, he'd often turn his gloves over palms up, and nail his opponent with the side of his gloves where there was less padding. I think it was Archie Moore that said that it was like getting hit by a blackjack (club) all over. Rough.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

He's got his elbows in and is making "ear muffs" with his gloves? Take your right hand and punch his left glove, moving it out of the way for the left uppercut you throw behind it. Throw a left hook behind both his gloves and pull them down to clear the way for your right hand.
Really, folks, watch some tapes. Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Davey Green and DLH vs R Ruelas come to mind, just off the top.

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On another note, if their shoulder is open why not target it to create an opening? Say for instance, you drive a straight right into their left shoulder to turn them enough to give you an opening to land a left hook. Like wise you can drive a straight left into their right shoulder to spin them right into a right hook. Alternatively, if you can control both of their shoulders (or elbows, or elbows and shoulders, ala Willie Pep me thinks) you can also spin them off balance, and then catch them while they are turning back to meet you.

What would you do if they are shelling up in a different way? Such as angled at you sideways, with their left held lower to protect their body, their left shoulder protecting their chin, and their right hand protecting their right side of their body. What then? How would you create an opening?


Oops I messed up w/ the lefts/rights :D , it's all fixed now. ;)

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Hit him hard on the arms and shoulders then he won't be able to hold his hands up that high ;)

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That reminds me of Marciano, he'd often turn his gloves over palms up, and nail his opponent with the side of his gloves where there was less padding. I think it was Archie Moore that said that it was like getting hit by a blackjack (club) all over. Rough.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

He's got his elbows in and is making "ear muffs" with his gloves? Take your right hand and punch his left glove, moving it out of the way for the left uppercut you throw behind it. Throw a left hook behind both his gloves and pull them down to clear the way for your right hand.
Really, folks, watch some tapes. Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Davey Green and DLH vs R Ruelas come to mind, just off the top.

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On another note, if their shoulder is open why not target it to create an opening? Say for instance, you drive a straight right into their right shoulder to turn them enough to give you an opening to land a left hook. Like wise you can drive a straight left into their left shoulder to spin them right into a right hook. Alternatively, if you can control both of their shoulders (or elbows, or elbows and shoulders, ala Willie Pep me thinks) you can also spin them off balance, and catch them while they are turning back to meet you.


What would you do if they are shelling up in a different way? Such as angled at you sideways, with their left held lower to protect their body, their left shoulder protecting their chin, and their right hand protecting their right side of their body. What then? How would you create an opening?

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Chris did you ever see what Frazier said about Marciano ?? he said that if Ali would of done the rope a dope vs Marciano, Marciano would of broke his arms ;D

But that tactic is actually good for fighters like Winky Wright, hit him on the arms and shoulders, if you hit him in the right place you can even give him a dead arm, i never see this tactic used anymore.

Yeah I was just about to say the same. Punch him in the shoulder. Theres no need even to work both. If you make him alter the position of one arm, both will move.

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Originally Posted by Walker Smith Jr.

Ive been noticing more and more through my sparring that, I havent the first clue on breaking through or getting around an opponent with his arms walled up. I find that everytime i try to attack a covered opponent, say to the body or head, i just feel like the punches im throwing at him are being stuffed. Like im in too close range to get effective twist on the hook, to the small exposed sides of his head and body. Or else i'll jab a couple times at their guard and try and jab through their forearms, but honestly my attempts so far feel futile, and i usually end up just backing off of them. I also attempt an uppercut between the guard sometimes, but i dont think my uppercutting technique is honed enough yet to be used effectively in sparring. It felt too weak and stuffed by his arms also.

Now im pretty sure this should be basic stuff i should be learned about, but im still sitting there dumbfounded ??? bouncing jabs off of their guard pondering my next move. Soo my online trainers, im calling upon your infinite boxing knowledge. I need a lesson in getting passed/breaking through the walled up guard of my opponent. Ima southy if it makes a difference. In depth instructions are good, but simple fundamental explanations always stick best with me. Any'll do. School me. 8)

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A simply way of taking advatage of sombody with a high guard is to move to the inside and go to the body with hooks.
When your gard is high you lose bit of mobility and also you cant keep an opponent off you.So just step inside and work the body.

Another way to take advantage of a hight gaurd is a long straight right to the body.

Show the punch a bit before you throw it to the body then after a few times switch to the head.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

He's got his elbows in and is making "ear muffs" with his gloves? Take your right hand and punch his left glove, moving it out of the way for the left uppercut you throw behind it. Throw a left hook behind both his gloves and pull them down to clear the way for your right hand.
Really, folks, watch some tapes. Sugar Ray Leonard vs. Davey Green and DLH vs R Ruelas come to mind, just off the top.

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Yeah !
or when that arm comes down throw another into the crook above his elbow and the opposite arm over the top of it as you turn in.

Step back out into the middle of the ring and wait for him to come forwards to you and time him and which arm he will throw or drop ,before doing anything.
If hes still covered up you have more room and time to choke him out with one arm as you get around on an angle into his weaker side with the other hand loaded and at the ready.

Good posts everyone! ;D Hey Andre, Jesse's tapes has some good techniques that would come in handy here. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Chris did you ever see what Frazier said about Marciano ?? he said that if Ali would of done the rope a dope vs Marciano, Marciano would of broke his arms ;D

But that tactic is actually good for fighters like Winky Wright, hit him on the arms and shoulders, if you hit him in the right place you can even give him a dead arm, i never see this tactic used anymore.

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I remember Joe Frazier mention that. I think part of the success of Ali of pulling it off against Foreman is in the way that Foreman threw his punches. It would have been a different story if Joe Louis was in the ring that night instead.

I don't think it would work on Wright, for one he's not going to stand still and let you use his arms like a punching bag. But if you have an opponent that just stands in front of you coving up, and if you have more than enough stamina, then by all means work on their arms at least until something better comes along. I see it as good way to wear someone down. Imagine if the "Hispanic causing Panic" Andrada had this in his arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

When somebody walls up theres usualy 2 reasons they are doing it to defend while they are looking to counter, or they cant work your distance and you will give it to them by what they make you do. Ive always loved fighters who could counter a counter its pure Boxing. While you stick your Jab just touch his glove, but while your doing it never leave yourself in the same distance level and angle keep stepping. Let him take the chance and risk make him do the worrying eventually he will commit and open up thats when your patiance will reep rewards.

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excellent as always !

touching is very important , varying your power … don't load up all the time , just simply knock on the door a few times , eventually someone will answer it, then be ready to mugem ! :laugh: patience is so important in this sport .

, just simply knock on the door a few times , eventually someone will answer it, then be ready to mugem ! :laugh: patience is so important in this sport .
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good analogy. very devious. it really puts it in perspective. I've been wasting my energy swatting at his guard, when i could have just very easily plinked away at his guard with my jab while trying to set up my angles.

An "in-close"Uppercut to the centre of the gloves/guard always starts the procedure for me, just to test how tight he holds them and how much abuse the guard will take before falling.

Also if you simply step back out of range,he feels instinctivley that its his move, many fire a shot after you that you can follow back home if your thinking about it all occuring before it does.

Most versions of the double high guard take serious speed
Wether its the Mexican one high,thats built for lightweights to point on the jab,or the Tyson(not just Tyson obviously but it was the most checkable version that came to mind)double high thats built to come forward and close.
An obnoxious thing to do with the double high,jab the gloves and let them punch themselves

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

a low blow will get his hands down every time.

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I've tried that, but then he'd pop me a quick one in my face. :(

I think a lot of guys are speaking about the hands straight up style to, like Winky a bit??? Holding them up really high really tight. I always just work around the sides on the exposed ribs for that.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

I think a lot of guys are speaking about the hands straight up style to, like Winky a bit??? Holding them up really high really tight. I always just work around the sides on the exposed ribs for that.

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Hit the gloves,let them hit themselves
Sure its dirty,so what,they want to fight that stupid ass style,they have to deal with the issues it presents

I don't really see it as dirty and it is an idea.

A question I have. Last night in sparring the trainer made us do an extra two rounds on the inside . One of us would throw a (full force) combination while the other would defend and it would alternate. However, when in range bobbing and weaving was ineffective against the taller fellow whilst he was getting his punches off, would you reccomend straight slipping or leaning???

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

I don't really see it as dirty and it is an idea.

A question I have. Last night in sparring the trainer made us do an extra two rounds on the inside . One of us would throw a (full force) combination while the other would defend and it would alternate. However, when in range bobbing and weaving was ineffective against the taller fellow whilst he was getting his punches off, would you reccomend straight slipping or leaning???

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If he's leading with the jab,ride it,otherwise pressure the ever living hell out of him,dont let him have his arms free enough for those big uppercuts and hooks to the body.
Grind your elbows in to the crook of his elbow,and your chin in to his collarbone,its distracting,it hurts like hell,and it wears them down

Thats pretty much my style on the inside, but for this guy my head reaches his chest.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Thats pretty much my style on the inside, but for this guy my head reaches his chest.

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You can still get away with it
Right at the top of his chest is the bottom of his collarbone,drive upward and shove with your chin,watch out for crosses when you do it though,you want it be quick driving pushes rather then a sustained lean like you do with a smaller guy,think of it like jabbing with your chin

Taller blokes you hit em just above the belt, hit them where they don't block, hit them in the ribs and they'll defend, so punch them in the stomach, eventually they'll coil over and you can hit em in the top of the head.

Cool, Sparring last night I found head movement so helpful, I've been really working on it and it helped. In the first three rounds I won, actually by punching him in the face mostly, but he really layed down the punishment in the last two and I was hurt at the finish, I need to build stamina even more!!!

But I'm dead happy, I really controlled him in the early going and thats difficult against a tall guy.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Thats pretty much my style on the inside, but for this guy my head reaches his chest.

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You could rip out all his chest hair with your teeth on a break then :)

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Thats pretty much my style on the inside, but for this guy my head reaches his chest.

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You could rip out all his chest hair with your teeth on a break then :)

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Ha Ha not a bad idea Andre!

Does anyone here punch their opponent in the chest? Not so much as a target but just to take a punch away from them.

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Originally Posted by Chris Nagel

Does anyone here punch their opponent in the chest? Not so much as a target but just to take a punch away from them.

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i've been really pondering the punch to the chest lately. It seems like a good area to place your shot especially if your opponent is being damn sneaky and using lots of head movement. So make em think you're going for a straight to the head and slug em in the chest. I've really trying to think of ways to set it up.

what exactly do you mean by taking a punch away though chris?

i started this thread btw, lol walker smith jr was my first acct and i forgot its pw :p

I was thinking of reviving this exact thread though because i still havent got down all the tricks to get past the guard yet, but i've been doing better at going with the hook to the body when i see my oppt shelled up.

So new discussion is quite welcome.

p.s. shit reading back on this thread, i didnt realize how gold all of this info was. Really good stuff that just slipped my mind. Reading through everything, its like i learned all this new and valuable information again -_-' Maybe it could be thrown in the useful posts when all is said and done.

Walker Smith Jr.? I wondered where you went. ;D You can talk to Saddo about your screen name and he could probably help you out.

Anyways a stiff jab to their chest, specifically against a southpaw that fights with their lead hand low (ala Zab Judah) can take away their right hook. Their shoulder simply can't move forward as long as it's there. I think that Scrap also mentioned something similar. It's tricky though, you gotta wait for them to show you the counter hook and then good luck. Alternatively I read in a boxing manual that you can pin an opponent's low lead arm to their side, or push against their shoulder, or bicep to take their punch away but's all dangerous business.

Taking an 'Andre' perspective, I guess another thing you can do is jab at their chest, shoulder or glove and see if you can draw a reaction and go from there. Of course it all has to be worked out in sparring.

By the way, it's nice to know you're still about. You outta spark some more discussions if something comes to mind. ;)

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Originally Posted by Chris Nagel

Good posts everyone! ;D Hey Andre, Jesse's tapes has some good techniques that would come in handy here. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Chris did you ever see what Frazier said about Marciano ?? he said that if Ali would of done the rope a dope vs Marciano, Marciano would of broke his arms ;D

But that tactic is actually good for fighters like Winky Wright, hit him on the arms and shoulders, if you hit him in the right place you can even give him a dead arm, i never see this tactic used anymore.

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I remember Joe Frazier mention that. I think part of the success of Ali of pulling it off against Foreman is in the way that Foreman threw his punches. It would have been a different story if Joe Louis was in the ring that night instead.

I don't think it would work on Wright, for one he's not going to stand still and let you use his arms like a punching bag. But if you have an opponent that just stands in front of you coving up, and if you have more than enough stamina, then by all means work on their arms at least until something better comes along. I see it as good way to wear someone down. Imagine if the "Hispanic causing Panic" Andrada had this in his arsenal.

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Chris i remember a fight between Roy Jones Jr vs Eric Harding where Jones kept hitting his shoulder and arm over and over again that eventually Harding had to quit. Another tactic which i love to is hit the shoulder then surprise them with a left hook under the elbow, if you watch Ricky Hatton vs Jose Luis Castillo he done the exact same thing to set up the body shot KO.

Although I still think my previous low blow suggestion is the most practical, you ca also show him angles and work the body.

you can also lull him open, invite counters, then catch him when he opens up.

Here's some more dirty boxing tips to help crack they shelled opponent. The one I liked the sound of if the punch to the hip, not as obvious as the groin shot but just as effective...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmtlw1N1TYQ