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Weve seen PBF on the pads looking at the camera looks effective, and in a way it is. When hes on the flash stuff basicaly hes doing Plyometrics working on feel and touch his coach is working just as hard by hittings Floyds gloves at different distace ,feel reaction.Now the good bit, you feel that he could do it with his eyes shut, and he could. If he did thats the next step to becoming even faster Thought this would be of interest
It reminds me of Wing Chun/Kung fu practitioners going through their 'sticky hands' drills.
Why close both eyes instead of just the dominant eye?
It is to me ;
as you know we used to practice chi sao 'set moves' nose to nose with the least amount of rection or movment so we could simultaniously defend and attack off of very slight movements; after it becomes a reaction you do it closed eyes or blindfolded just on feeling the oppositions intent. That builds your contact reflexes between your forearms into your brain faster and you naturally deal with it in the shortest fastest moves.Controling when theres a threat releasing with a strike up any holes you feel in their defence.
Its great for flowing around grappling arms like in a clinch on the ropes allowing you to feel your way out and flow with the force then explode out.
Hi CHris ,
thats a good point.specially for boxing stuck in a one sided stance.
The kung fu exercize as you know has many stages of progression;
We used to start the exersize off with only one stance or one body side facing out like boxing and fencing.for a few months
But would then go onto both sides
then nose to nose square shouldere so that both arms are stiking range and both are a threat
then to slight shifts in stance which would change contact range when going from square into a half facing stance so that the sublties of one handed range and two handed range are covered fully,
then it went further utilizing full footwork into full front stances in and out from square nose to nose
into full free fighting.
But you know we never covered the dominant or the weaker eye ???
I think I can now see where you got some of your ideas about closing the distance right off a duck, slip or when your opponent is bringing back their hand while keeping your shoulders square to your opponent.
Chris,
Kung fu is a joke. Bunch of slap happy morons that look like two pigeons fighting over the same stoop.
Hey Von,
I see it differently. I think that a lot of its' concepts and techniques translate very well into boxing. I guess you could say the same thing about anything. eg. "Wrestling is stupid. It's just a bunch of sweaty idiots trying to hug each other into submission." ;D
See what I mean, it just a matter of how you look at it.
id rather get into it with a kung fu guy with zero force behind his shots than a wrestler who can slam your head into the pavement. ;)
most combat arts experts will say the same thing about kung fu. that and karate always distill down to very crude boxing.
Thats funny and only looking at it from one perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Milash
I can see where you are comming from to a degree especially in the ring with rules and gloves for protection .
Im not going to hang it on anyone for anything cause there was a karate master who killed so many bulls with his bear hands yet at the same time his style is limited in some applications.
Boxing has its limits as do all other styles .
Honestly my mate tore off someones knee cap who took a swing at him on the street he was practicing a northern kung fu style.
For a wing chun practitioner to be able to fight at his limit at the higher end of the art you have be fighting with finger tips to outreach someone who can only think in fists and you go for their eyes and all the soft targets so in reality you are off to jail if you use it.That is why you dont see it used in movies or in the titles.
I agree others in general hit much harder and thats relavent to many of the controlled fights with gloves and rules.
I cant dismiss anything , the mind is like an umbrella it only works properly when its open.
Chris Youre shutting down the sense that slows you down. Andre, I like the umbrella very true
Hi Scrap,
You wrote:
No offense, but I disagree. When Mayweather works the pads like that with his uncle, it's simply "flash stuff" with no fight-functional application (sportive or otherwise). As far as this pad drill having any plyometric effect, there is none whatsoever. Plyometrics refers to exercise that enables a muscle to reach maximum force in the shortest possible time. Creating a plyometric contraction first involves a rapid eccentric movement (i.e. a muscle lengthening action) , followed by a short amortization phase (i.e. a brief transition period from stretching to contracting), then an explosive concentric movement (i.e. a muscle shortening action), which enables the synergistic muscles to engage in the myotatic-stretch reflex during the stretch-shortening cycle.Quote:
Weve seen PBF on the pads looking at the camera looks effective, and in a way it is. When hes on the flash stuff basicaly hes doing Plyometrics working on feel and touch his coach is working just as hard by hittings Floyds gloves at different distace ,feel reaction.Now the good bit, you feel that he could do it with his eyes shut, and he could. If he did thats the next step to becoming even faster Thought this would be of interest
Two exercise examples that elicit a plyometric effect are clapping push-ups and vertical jump squats. In both these exercises, the targeted muscles are stretched before a concentric contraction thus "creating" more forceful and rapid contractions.
Anyway, take Mayweather's "no-look" pad work for what it is, a slick "parlor trick" for the cameras that's cool to watch...
Take Care,
Lito
Probably with the word polymetrics removed from the post the real intent behind it would imerge better as polymetrics may account for a snippet of what could go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by StrictlySP
Not that I understand all the meanings behind these new words.
do polymetrics stop when you close your eyes ??? :)
I took the real issue behind the post to mean the links behind sight and reaction opposed to non -thought reactive speed and seeing -thought reactive speed; without any real mention of what can be achieved if other things are incorperated into it.
I tried to take the post one stage further into contact reflex /speed of reaction built up by taking away your sight.
Turns out I shouldnt have slipped the word Kungfu in there either ;)
I'd have to disagree with you too SP. Notice that Floyd brings his right hand up to block everytime Roger throws a left at his head. The same is when he slips and uses his shoulder, etc. It's all responses, and Floyd and his uncle play off each other so well that it seems like just another parlor trick.
Though I agree that a lot of trainers will use the pads just to make their fighter's look good, when Roger and Floyd play off of each other with the pads, it transitions very well into FLoyd's fights. All those moves and reactions are being reinforced during the pad work. Now on the flipside in regards to those other fighters that are made to look good on the pads, that pad work doesn't carry into their fights.
Now if you look closely you can see a lot of subtle things that Floyd does. Those precise little shifts in his footwork, exit strategies, and flowing from one movement to another is brought out in that training. I'm not saying this to be patronizing, I'm saying that there's a lot more to it than what it looks like on the surface. Roger is a big contributing factor with Floyd's performance, because it's the man with the pads that determines the situation that is to be practiced.
Sp, thanks for the response, but what they are doing is plometricaly based different psychodinamics but the same princable. Plyometrics cover a wide field. Theres the ones that as a rule give long term injuries, or another type implementing dynamic stretch routines with touch. Which I with the help of The institute of Sport hope to have on the market this year.They tell me it will put Sheffield in the forefront of Sports Science lets see, when all the dots are covered Saddos will be 1st with the news :D
Plyometrics, Psychodynamics? Now I'm dizzy.
I guess I tend to agree with Chris. The thing with pad work is that, to my mind, the objective is not to be a cardio work out but to sharpen response and reaction. For that reason I think pad work is best when its primarily intended to work on defensive reactions i.e he throws a hook, you block the hook. I think its less effective when its just hey punch over here, okay now punch over there. Is that how you plan on fighting? Everything you do in the ring is in reaction to what the opponent does. So therefore pad work should simulate the opponent's output as realistically as possible.
So I think Floyd's pad work is geared toward that philosophy. I think Roger should act more like a real opponent however. But at least the goal of it is to sharpen Floyd's ability to see things and react to them.
But if you want to see some real padwork. Check out Hopkins and Naasim Richardson. They do it better than anybody else I've seen. Its basically sparring and Richardson offers real targets that are based on actual in-the-ring situations. They move aorund and use the ring and they even clinch! Its not surpprising why Hopkins is so comfortable when he actually fights.
Hi Chris and Thomas,
Hmmm, interesting thoughts...
Let me clarify something before I proceed to make sure there are no misunderstandings. When I stated that there was no fight-functional value to the pad drilling Mayweather was doing with his uncle, I was strictly referring to the "no-look" (i.e. looking-at-the-camera only) pad work he was doing. I still stand by what I wrote, Floyd was simply showing off. I believe there was/is no fight-functional value to what he was doing in terms of actual boxing.
As far as all the attributes you believe were being worked on/honed through this flashy display on the pads, well, I think you've "read" and over-analyzed far too much into what Floyd was doing. Now, as a "tie-breaker" so to speak, I spoke with two pro trainers, one of them being the venerable Freddie Roach who, I think we can all agree on, is one of the best professional boxing trainers in the game right now.
I called and informed Freddie about our online discussion. After attentively listening to me delineate both sides, Freddie unequivocally stated that the pad work Floyd was doing with his uncle, as showcased in the "Mayweather vs Hatton 24/7" HBO series, (NOT ONLY when he was showing off and looking at the camera, which is what I was focusing on and refuting BUT also when he appeared serious and was looking at his uncle) has absolutely no relevance to actual boxing in the ring. He said that it was nothing but a pitty-pat display of patty cake on the pads. He said it was showboating through and through.
My other, not so well-known boxing trainer friend concurred with Freddie stating it was all showboating AND that it was a rehearsed act to boot.
While I believe Floyd's flashy pad work with uncle Roger was showboating all the way, I didn't think it was necessarily rehearsed but based on Floyd and Roger "knowing each other" after years of training together, in this case working the pads together exclusively. So, I also asked Freddie for his opinion on this. Was it was rehearsed or freelanced? Well, Freddie didn't think it was rehearsed per se either but rather a routine honed through being accustomed to and in-synch with one another (that being Floyd and Roger) through years and years of working the pads together.
So, I guess there is only one thing we agree on with this, we disagree... ;)
By the way, Thomas, I do agree with you on another thing--Hopkins and Richardson's pad work. Now, that's real pad work. It's among the best I've ever seen too.
Anyway, take care and Happy New Year!
Best Regards,
Lito
I would have thought Freddie would been more open minded and aware just goes to show Ill ask him next time I see him.
I think it is all corriagraphed. I doubt he could do it blindfolded for any length of time as he doesn't maintain contact or the centre line, it looks rehearsed or maybe more ingrained.
There has to be benifits even if its just for perenial vision practice as he looks at the camera smiling.
I dont think theres much to what he is doing either but I think there could be if we could get a hood over his head and see how far he can go then.The instant changes in his arms reaching for both the pads and what he did next with his body angle through his feet to gain the upper hand would be very interesting.
I guess that after all you're right SP. You could say it is pre-programmed, as they've probably gone through the same drill countless times before. Then again with the way that they go through the pad work there is only so much variation possible. At least it's good practice to keep Floyd's defense sharp.
I feel we all may be reading too deeply into this. What we see of Mayweather on the pads is a very limited presentation of his entire padwork session. All we see is one combination and it's variations.
I feel the reason he uses the pads as he does is merely to practice "punch perfection" getting the arms straight and hitting accurately.
I've tried doing the pads like that for 2 weelks and my punches were a lot straighter and more accurate and I became more aware of where my arms should be.
Yeah I been trying to head it into what could be, more than what is.
Oh well...
Well I could well be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
And if we don't have anybody thikning of possablities, concepts and ideas then we won't develop will we.
The funny thing is They are probably not aware of what the technique is actually doing but it does now I find that interesting. Now with the eyes shut and the pad man changeing distance working on touch thats going to make anybody faster, and have better technique through feel.
I don't really think I have the base of knowledge in the field to completely understand everything you're saying here Scrap. I won't discount something I don't even understand.
One thing I was thinking about which your 'touch and feel' phrase made me think of is the way you sort of feel best hitting a pad hard proportionally to how hard it's thrown at you. For example if I don't have enough force or correct timing with a punch hitting the pad and it's thrown hard at me I might feel a bit of jarring. If I aim to king hit a pad held by someone half my weight, when their not ready for it - it'll feel wrong too.
I guess it might make you instinctively predict the flow of the pad holder. This should be possible if they're not stopping and starting a lot, don't double up with one pad and are maintaining some momentum. Sort of like if you're on the bag and you throw four solid punches maybe you know the fourth is going to have more power than the others.
I'm guessing this instinct could be good to havefor the purpose of being able to know when the hard hits are coming if you're in a position where maybe you're behind your guard or trapped in a way which doesn't let you see as easily. Or just to speed up your reflexes even when you can?
Anyway that's my extremely uneducated theory - does it make any sense?
Sharla all it is is a form of Prerocreation dont think I spelt that right. Remember the one leg thing with the eyes shut thats a form of working speed through reflex action doing pads with a change of distance while youve got your eyes shut just a matter of changing at a 6 inch distance will make your reflexes improve Plus technique feel will get better
Well CC Scrap and thanks for reading my theory - so if it's adjusting distance then it's your response to the distance you feel - not the power of the pads to set yourself up for the next shot? I guess that's a lot more useful than what I had guessed. You obviously understand this to a deeper level than I will for a while but it's good to have a bit of mental stimulation :)
Sharla when I was Boxing I didnt understand it. But when I took the job as a coach, I made it my responsabilty to find out. You never stop learning, Theres two things that have kept me going a good memory, and Ive forgot the other thing ;D
CC Scrap there's hope for me yet :)
Way back in the 90s Ringside did a promo tape on "Working the Mitts", and Roger Mayweather was featured in this tape. What he was doing, and this was not with PBF, was remarkable. He was teaching, through his mitt work, things like "centerline" of the body in punching , balance, and defense, especially the "pull-counter" which his nephew uses so effectively. You can use the mitts, just like you can use the heavy bag, the speed bag, and the jump rope, to make a fighter look like something he is not. You can also use them to make a fighter into something he might not have been otherwise.
I don't know if this is relevant but...Let me get a double end bag working with my jab and I'll hit it all day with my eyes closed. Better than I can with them wide open, since the vision in my right eye got so bad.
Last, Freddie Roach is the best trainer today only by the standard of money earned and only because there are so few trainers worth speaking of these days. Name one single fighter- no sorry, one beyond Pacquiao- that he has improved. Name ONE that he has developed. I watched him work in Phoenix, and I've spent many, many hours in his gym in Hollywood, and I don't get it. Take some time and total up his flops and failures...he doesn't do much for a fighter except give them a "name" in theior corner and take a bigger piece of the purse. Which puts him in the class of Steward and Clancy and Dundee, et. al.
Good post Joe. I've been wondering for some time what was on that Ringside tape showing Roger and you answered some of my questions here in your post.
Joe Id like to spend time with you I like you cc