WHAT A FIGHT!!!Is Manny P4P number1 now?.Let me know your thoughts!

Firstly,I think it was a tremendous fight. Really really awesome fight and congrats to both fighters.Second best foty imo.

I had JMM winning by a point.However,it was a close fight and could have gone either way. These guys could have 10 fights,each would be exciting and each would be close.

I'm not dropping JMM any places in my P4P lists because it was such a dam good and close fight.He gave Manny hell and vise versa. The reason I'm putting Manny P4P number 1 is he showed some improvements tonight to deal with a stylistic nightmare.He had excellent upper body movement,not as off balance as he used to be and blocked punches to compliment good,controlled agression.He's still primarily a 1 handed fighter but uses his right more than he used to. And he won.It was close but for him to beat JMM is a great achievement.

I told you guys it would go to points.;) Tremendous fight,boxing fans are the winners.Although I have a feeling we won't be seeing JMM again,I don't know why.:(

I want Manny to whoop that over rated journeyman David Diaz!

BTW,I've only seen the fight once so if I see a better quality version,I may change my scorecard.:):)

Ah Gamo mate after all your hooplah about people ranking Juan Diaz too highly you now seriously think Manny Pacquiao should be p4p number 1 based on a fight virtually everyone fought he lost, and who got battered around the ring at times?

Great fight, absolutely no question but Pacquiao isn't even in the same stratosphere in terms of skill and ability to Floyd Mayweather.

:stupid:

Welll I made some points as to why I think he is a serious contender for P4P. Stop being such a jackass and try to at least use logic in your thinking. Manny just won the RING title in a close fight against a stylistic nightmare. A win over JMM in a fight which was 50-50 is more impressive than wins over Hatton and Oscar imo.

Seriously,you make yorself look so foolish sometimes.Try not to backtrack or voer up like you've done ith Margarito/smaller fighters etc etc ;)

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Welll I made some points as to why I think he is a serious contender for P4P. Stop being such a jackass and try to at least use logic in your thinking. Manny just won the RING title in a close fight against a stylistic nightmare. A win over JMM in a fight which was 50-50 is more impressive than wins over Hatton and Oscar imo.

Seriously,you make yorself look so foolish sometimes.Try not to backtrack or voer up like you've done ith Margarito/smaller fighters etc etc ;)

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He didn't win, he got the decision ;)

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Welll I made some points as to why I think he is a serious contender for P4P. Stop being such a jackass and try to at least use logic in your thinking. Manny just won the RING title in a close fight against a stylistic nightmare. A win over JMM in a fight which was 50-50 is more impressive than wins over Hatton and Oscar imo.

Seriously,you make yorself look so foolish sometimes.Try not to backtrack or voer up like you've done ith Margarito/smaller fighters etc etc ;)

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Gamo man, you have no right to call anyone foolish if your apparently considering Pac at no.1. It's self explanatory, he's nowhere near the fighter Mayweather is p4p. I also have yet to find a post where I don't agree with Bilbo over you.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Welll I made some points as to why I think he is a serious contender for P4P. Stop being such a jackass and try to at least use logic in your thinking. Manny just won the RING title in a close fight against a stylistic nightmare. A win over JMM in a fight which was 50-50 is more impressive than wins over Hatton and Oscar imo.

Seriously,you make yorself look so foolish sometimes.Try not to backtrack or voer up like you've done ith Margarito/smaller fighters etc etc ;)

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Gamo man, you have no right to call anyone foolish if your apparently considering Pac at no.1. It's self explanatory, he's nowhere near the fighter Mayweather is p4p. I also have yet to find a post where I don't agree with Bilbo over you.

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Thanks buddy although apparently we disagree over whether Rains is an idiot or not :p

I personally like him but I'm a fair weather friend and if the rest reject him I'll pretend I never knew him :LOLATYOU:

If anythings Pacs sliding down the p4p rankings not going up .

He looked vunerable vs Barrera and Larios and now vs Marquez. Wheres his aggression and speed gone ? It looked like he was on his way out in round 8 but JMM has never been a finisher and let him survive .

Manny now needs to forget rematching old Mexicans and start his assult on the young fighters out there .

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Originally Posted by GAME

If anythings Pacs sliding down the p4p rankings not going up .

He looked vunerable vs Barrera and Larios and now vs Marquez. Wheres his aggression and speed gone ? It looked like he was on his way out in round 8 but JMM has never been a finisher and let him survive .

Manny now needs to forget rematching old Mexicans and start his assult on the young fighters out there .

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Yeah that's pretty much how I see it.

Quite honestly I feel the best fighter in the division will prove to be Juan Guzman, I think he beats Marquez and Pacquaio based on this showing.

I'd be very interested to see Valero fight either. To me they both looked vulnurable and if he managed to land he could well put them both away.

I'm curious to see how Pac will look at 135, whether the weight will suit him better or worse.

Although on merit I of course keep Pacquaio at number 2, in my heart I think Joe Calzaghe is the second best fighter in the world, and will prove as much against Hopkins, who I believe even at his advanced age is number 3.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Welll I made some points as to why I think he is a serious contender for P4P. Stop being such a jackass and try to at least use logic in your thinking. Manny just won the RING title in a close fight against a stylistic nightmare. A win over JMM in a fight which was 50-50 is more impressive than wins over Hatton and Oscar imo.

Seriously,you make yorself look so foolish sometimes.Try not to backtrack or voer up like you've done ith Margarito/smaller fighters etc etc ;)

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Gamo man, you have no right to call anyone foolish if your apparently considering Pac at no.1. It's self explanatory, he's nowhere near the fighter Mayweather is p4p. I also have yet to find a post where I don't agree with Bilbo over you.

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Thanks buddy although apparently we disagree over whether Rains is an idiot or not :p

I personally like him but I'm a fair weather friend and if the rest reject him I'll pretend I never knew him :LOLATYOU:

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Then start pretending, because he's seriously an idiot. Ok, I'm sure you're friendly with him and maybe he is a decent guy, but when it comes to boxing(which is what this forum is for), he doesn't know dick all.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Gamo man, you have no right to call anyone foolish if your apparently considering Pac at no.1. It's self explanatory, he's nowhere near the fighter Mayweather is p4p. I also have yet to find a post where I don't agree with Bilbo over you.

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Thanks buddy although apparently we disagree over whether Rains is an idiot or not :p

I personally like him but I'm a fair weather friend and if the rest reject him I'll pretend I never knew him :LOLATYOU:

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Then start pretending, because he's seriously an idiot. Ok, I'm sure you're friendly with him and maybe he is a decent guy, but when it comes to boxing(which is what this forum is for), he doesn't know dick all.

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lol, I know him from the Lets Get It On forum and of course through the excellent flans he bakes

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by GAME

If anythings Pacs sliding down the p4p rankings not going up .

He looked vunerable vs Barrera and Larios and now vs Marquez. Wheres his aggression and speed gone ? It looked like he was on his way out in round 8 but JMM has never been a finisher and let him survive .

Manny now needs to forget rematching old Mexicans and start his assult on the young fighters out there .

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Yeah that's pretty much how I see it.

Quite honestly I feel the best fighter in the division will prove to be Juan Guzman, I think he beats Marquez and Pacquaio based on this showing.

I'd be very interested to see Valero fight either. To me they both looked vulnurable and if he managed to land he could well put them both away.

I'm curious to see how Pac will look at 135, whether the weight will suit him better or worse.

Although on merit I of course keep Pacquaio at number 2, in my heart I think Joe Calzaghe is the second best fighter in the world, and will prove as much against Hopkins, who I believe even at his advanced age is number 3.

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I think Floyd and Joe are the top 2 p4p fighters . I can make a case for Hopkins being up there too .

I also agree that Joan Guzman beats both Marquez and Pac but I can see Pac fighting David Diaz instead .

Great fight but my overall impression was that Marquez won. Maybe when I watch it again and score the fight I may have a different view. This was no robbery however. There were some close rounds.

I still do not think Pac is number one P4P. I would like to see him against Guzman and Valero. Two different challenges. Slick boxer and power puncher.

If he does not rematch Marquez or go for the aforementioned other 2 130lbs then it would be interesting to see him against Nate Campbell. I think he will struggle up at 135. He should stay at 130 for now and clean up (unified champ).

I've watched the fight closely and indeed it was very close that it warrants a rematch. My scorecard says it's 114-113 Pacquaio or Marquez winning.

The knockdown(which was so impressive), gave this fight to Pacquaio.

Pacquaio deserves to win this one.:cool:

great great fight but did pac deserve the decision........









no

Man,I seldom have off days posting but this is one of them. All repped and you could say I just go my ass owned!:p:p I guess I was just overexcited because I thought it was a super fight.

Didn't you guys at least think it was a great fight?Or was it 2 guys on the decline?

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Man,I seldom have off days posting but this is one of them. All repped and you could say I just go my ass owned!:p:p I guess I was just overexcited because I thought it was a super fight.

Didn't you guys at least think it was a great fight?Or was it 2 guys on the decline?

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Both .

They werent as quick as they were at featherweight but it still made for an exciting fight IMO .

I think Valero v Manny should be made now :cool::cool: If Valero clocked him with the punches JMM was landing,Manny wouldn't have seen the bell.:p:p

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Man,I seldom have off days posting but this is one of them. All repped and you could say I just go my ass owned!:p:p I guess I was just overexcited because I thought it was a super fight.

Didn't you guys at least think it was a great fight?Or was it 2 guys on the decline?

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Nah I thought it was an awesome fight, on the edge of my seat.

I'm just thinking now that they've had too many wars and that a fighter like Guzman, or even Valero could capitalise.

It's the same with Vazquez and Marquez. I honestly think Vazquez could lose if or when they get in with Cabellero, Ponce De Leon or Steve Molitor.

They won't be the same again imo.

It's the Castillo, Coralles syndrome.

Not that I think Pacquaio is necessarily at that stage but I think we've seen the best of both Marquez brothers and Israel Vazquez.

bilbo p4pqueen is trying to suck up to you. don't fall for it!!!

Gamo I'll kee pac at second cause im dissapointed with his performance although he still won imo. JMM came up short and thats the bottomline, he at times had pac where he wanted him but just can't capitolize.

Game: I don't think pac speed is gone, his power is evidently still there. when he explodes with these two combine his dominant. In my honest oppinion, i think its the extra weight he puts on in less than 24 hours that makes him make a fight harder on himself. cutting down to 129 then going up to 145 does not benefit him. I know now that its best he moves up to 135 cause 130 is slowing him down.

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

bilbo p4pqueen is trying to suck up to you. don't fall for it!!!

Gamo I'll kee pac at second cause im dissapointed with his performance although he still won imo. JMM came up short and thats the bottomline, he at times had pac where he wanted him but just can't capitolize.

Game: I don't think pac speed is gone, his power is evidently still there. when he explodes with these two combine his dominant. In my honest oppinion, i think its the extra weight he puts on in less than 24 hours that makes him make a fight harder on himself. cutting down to 129 then going up to 145 does not benefit him. I know now that its best he moves up to 135 cause 130 is slowing him down.

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Rains don't fall out with me buddy. You're still my fave boy on Saddo's.

you're an essential part of Clan Baggins. So you've made everyone else hate you, that matters not. I'm loyal to my Saddo friends to the hilt.











By the way if you see p4pking I've never heard of you ;D


Just kidding buddy, I'd never turn my back on a loyal Saddo friend :cool:

hey guys just got back from Florida and ordered this fight and man was I happy.I couldn't have topped off my vay-kay with anything better well besides sex.

Anyway only one word comes to mind when I seen that fight and it was ROBBEREY.I think besides the knockdown Marquez again got away from mostly all of Pacquiao's big shots.It wasn't so much of that upsetted me but listening to Jim Lampley absolute bias commentating.Manny should have just dropped troul and lampley would easily jumped into the ring and blown him.A little disgusting I know but it wasn't much worse from the way he commentated on the " Great Pacquiao". Look at the rounds my friend's and tell me Pac-man wasn't frustrated when he pounded his gloves and just start bouncing and sticking his arms to say "that's it" after Marquez landed 2 or 3 good shots.Then I thought I was being bias on the way I judged.So I turned to my fiancee and she said the same "I think Marquez is landing cleaner punches".


So I do have to answer 1 question.Can Judges here the announcer's? Well to me it seemed that any close round the round was to Pacquiao on Lederman's scorecard and in Lampley's mind Pac-man won every single round. I thought it was a great fight but I think PAcquiao is just how I stated a little bit ago. "He is on the downward slope and Marquez will get him".

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Firstly,I think it was a tremendous fight. Really really awesome fight and congrats to both fighters.Second best foty imo.

I had JMM winning by a point.However,it was a close fight and could have gone either way. These guys could have 10 fights,each would be exciting and each would be close.

I'm not dropping JMM any places in my P4P lists because it was such a dam good and close fight.He gave Manny hell and vise versa. The reason I'm putting Manny P4P number 1 is he showed some improvements tonight to deal with a stylistic nightmare.He had excellent upper body movement,not as off balance as he used to be and blocked punches to compliment good,controlled agression.He's still primarily a 1 handed fighter but uses his right more than he used to. And he won.It was close but for him to beat JMM is a great achievement.

I told you guys it would go to points.;) Tremendous fight,boxing fans are the winners.Although I have a feeling we won't be seeing JMM again,I don't know why.:(

I want Manny to whoop that over rated journeyman David Diaz!

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totally agree mate don't listen to these guys mate wins over barrera, morales and Marquez.

far outdoes wins over judah, Hatton and struggling with an ageing DLH who aint had a good performance in over 4 years ;)

manny pac in no 1 with Marquez no2 ;D

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Originally Posted by Saddo

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

Firstly,I think it was a tremendous fight. Really really awesome fight and congrats to both fighters.Second best foty imo.

I had JMM winning by a point.However,it was a close fight and could have gone either way. These guys could have 10 fights,each would be exciting and each would be close.

I'm not dropping JMM any places in my P4P lists because it was such a dam good and close fight.He gave Manny hell and vise versa. The reason I'm putting Manny P4P number 1 is he showed some improvements tonight to deal with a stylistic nightmare.He had excellent upper body movement,not as off balance as he used to be and blocked punches to compliment good,controlled agression.He's still primarily a 1 handed fighter but uses his right more than he used to. And he won.It was close but for him to beat JMM is a great achievement.

I told you guys it would go to points.;) Tremendous fight,boxing fans are the winners.Although I have a feeling we won't be seeing JMM again,I don't know why.:(

I want Manny to whoop that over rated journeyman David Diaz!

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totally agree mate don't listen to these guys mate wins over barrera, morales and Marquez.

far outdoes wins over judah, Hatton and struggling with an ageing DLH who aint had a good performance in over 4 years ;)

manny pac in no 1 with Marquez no2 ;D

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woohooo saddo too haha ;D

That fight was tremendous , was very close but with the Kdown definitely Paquiao looked the winner , in my opinion the second fight Marquez should had fight immediately after the first and i don't know why he rejected the offer of $750,000 for the rematch and then fought for $30,000 in Indonesia where costed him the Championship. Everything by his proud .........I congratulate the judges for their fair Decision of these fight that was very close until the final .........

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Originally Posted by Macho

That fight was tremendous , was very close but with the Kdown definitely Paquiao looked the winner , in my opinion the second fight Marquez should had fight immediately after the first and i don't know why he rejected the offer of $750,000 for the rematch and then fought for $30,000 in Indonesia where costed him the Championship. I congratulate the judges for their fair Decision of these fight that was very close until the final .........

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MY FRIEND MACHO, IM GLAD YOU ENJOYED THE FIGHT. i DONT' KNOW EITHER WHY JMM TURN DOWN THE IMMIDIATE REMATCH FOR 30,000 ONLY TO LOSE TO CRIS JOHN.

THE FIGHT WAS GREAT, BOTH GUYS ARE GREAT BUT PAC JUST EDGES IT OUT WITH HIS POWER.

THE REMATCH SCORECARDS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE FIRST ONE WAS, TELLING THE TALE OF PAC VS JMM. PAC DESERVING THE WIN FOR HURTING JMM MORE AND DROPPING HIM. AGREE WITH GAMO JMM PROVE HIS THE WORST STYLE FOR PAC. BUT AGAIN HE JUST KEEPS COMING UP SHORT.

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Originally Posted by GAME

If anythings Pacs sliding down the p4p rankings not going up .

He looked vunerable vs Barrera and Larios and now vs Marquez. Wheres his aggression and speed gone ? It looked like he was on his way out in round 8 but JMM has never been a finisher and let him survive .

Manny now needs to forget rematching old Mexicans and start his assult on the young fighters out there .

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are you saying marquez is old now? manny is fighting smart now. not something i want to see but at least he's improving.manny never looked like he was on his way out anywhere. jmm on the other hand did look like it a couple of times.

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

I think Valero v Manny should be made now :cool::cool: If Valero clocked him with the punches JMM was landing,Manny wouldn't have seen the bell.:p:p

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yep. i think it should be made soon. i dont even think that manny should fight that overrated david diaz tho it would be a relatively easier fight than marquez. if valero lands, it could be lights out for manny and if manny lands it could be lights out for valero too. but the only factor here is that valero is not as fast as marquez so his punches could be seen coming and pac could counter it. remember pac countered marquez for the KD.

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Originally Posted by josef4334

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Originally Posted by GAME

If anythings Pacs sliding down the p4p rankings not going up .

He looked vunerable vs Barrera and Larios and now vs Marquez. Wheres his aggression and speed gone ? It looked like he was on his way out in round 8 but JMM has never been a finisher and let him survive .

Manny now needs to forget rematching old Mexicans and start his assult on the young fighters out there .

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are you saying marquez is old now? manny is fighting smart now. not something i want to see but at least he's improving.manny never looked like he was on his way out anywhere. jmm on the other hand did look like it a couple of times.

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I think Pac was wobbly at the end of round 2 and hurt again in teh 8th but Marquez is visibly slower now and didnt have it in the tank to follow it up . Marquez showed decent recovery to recover in the 3rd but he was hurt more by that knockdown than any other he has suffered and it may be down to age and recovery powers not being what they used to . Even though I think Marquez won I think if they fought for a 3rd time Marquez would have a tougher fight on his hands cuz that fight took alot out of him . I dont think it took alot out of Pac its just a bad performance from him .

Pac greatly deserves his number 2 spot beating MAB, EM convincingly and JMM in a hairline. But P4P number1 hell no!!!
All I can say is for a former 107 pounder to achieve all of these is already a great feat IMO and warrants great RESPECT.
Did Manny deserves this victory, YES. In fact he should've gotten the nod 4 years ago in the first place if it wasn't for Judge Bert Clements.
Marquez wasnt battered but Manny did edge him a lil in this fight and a win is win.

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Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac greatly deserves his number 2 spot beating MAB, EM convincingly and JMM in a hairline. But P4P number1 hell no!!!
All I can say is for a former 107 pounder to achieve all of these is already a great feat IMO and warrants great RESPECT.
Did Manny deserves this victory, YES. In fact he should've gotten the nod 4 years ago in the first place if it wasn't for Judge Bert Clements.
Marquez wasnt battered but Manny did edge him a lil in this fight and a win is win.

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I agree with you. But if Pac wins against David Diaz and capture his belt, not only Pac will be a 4-time world time (4 diff divisions),... but also a #1 p4p king!

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

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Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac greatly deserves his number 2 spot beating MAB, EM convincingly and JMM in a hairline. But P4P number1 hell no!!!
All I can say is for a former 107 pounder to achieve all of these is already a great feat IMO and warrants great RESPECT.
Did Manny deserves this victory, YES. In fact he should've gotten the nod 4 years ago in the first place if it wasn't for Judge Bert Clements.
Marquez wasnt battered but Manny did edge him a lil in this fight and a win is win.

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I agree with you. But if Pac wins against David Diaz and capture his belt, not only Pac will be a 4-time world time (4 diff divisions),... but also a #1 p4p king!

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If Floyd performs bad in his next fight and PAC beats David Diaz in a spectacular manner then I'd agree. But another win against JMM on a rubber match would look better in PAC's resume IMO.

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

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Originally Posted by Pavlik

Pac greatly deserves his number 2 spot beating MAB, EM convincingly and JMM in a hairline. But P4P number1 hell no!!!
All I can say is for a former 107 pounder to achieve all of these is already a great feat IMO and warrants great RESPECT.
Did Manny deserves this victory, YES. In fact he should've gotten the nod 4 years ago in the first place if it wasn't for Judge Bert Clements.
Marquez wasnt battered but Manny did edge him a lil in this fight and a win is win.

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I agree with you. But if Pac wins against David Diaz and capture his belt, not only Pac will be a 4-time world time (4 diff divisions),... but also a #1 p4p king!

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I disagree strongly with this, David Diaz is a marginal champion in a currently unimpressive weight class, how would beating him be enough to move Pac to the P4P #1 spot? IMO beating Marquez, who is/was top 5 P4P on almost everyones list, is much more impressive that beating Diaz, even if Diaz fights at a higher weight. I could understand Pac being anywhere from about 2-4 on the P4P list, maybe as low as 5 if you believe Marquez should've won the fight but there is no way he surpassed PBF by beating Diaz.

Going into this fight, I had Pacquiao ranked #2 PFP, and Marquez #3. I see no reason to move either of them after last night. If Calzaghe puts together a dominant win over Hopkins, then I might consider moving him to #3.

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Going into this fight, I had Pacquiao ranked #2 PFP, and Marquez #3. I see no reason to move either of them after last night. If Calzaghe puts together a dominant win over Hopkins, then I might consider moving him to #3.

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I have Marquez moving down to number #6, in front of his brother Rafa.

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Do you think he lost the fight then?

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Going into this fight, I had Pacquiao ranked #2 PFP, and Marquez #3. I see no reason to move either of them after last night. If Calzaghe puts together a dominant win over Hopkins, then I might consider moving him to #3.

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I have Marquez moving down to number #6, in front of his brother Rafa.

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By moving Marquez down that far, you're actually degrading Manny's win, because you're saying Marquez wasn't really as good as people thought, and that therefore Manny doesn't deserve that much credit. Do you really think that way?

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

I have Marquez moving down to number #6, in front of his brother Rafa.

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Do you think he lost the fight then?

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Yes ofcourse. What I meant by "moving down" is #1 is being the top.

Marquez was #4 in my book. Pacquiao remains #2.

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I know what you meant, I am just asking if YOU think Pac won that fight last night?

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Going into this fight, I had Pacquiao ranked #2 PFP, and Marquez #3. I see no reason to move either of them after last night. If Calzaghe puts together a dominant win over Hopkins, then I might consider moving him to #3.

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I have Marquez moving down to number #6, in front of his brother Rafa.

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Do you think he lost the fight then?

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It's weird for me, I think Marquez edged the fight, and I thought it was one of the best fights of the last few years.........

But I dunno, I thought both of them were disappointing in some ways. I think they both looked vulnurable and honestly believe Juan Guzman would outbox both of them.

They probably stay where they are p4p but I think Calzaghe is a better and more dominant fighter than either.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

I have Marquez moving down to number #6, in front of his brother Rafa.

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Do you think he lost the fight then?

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It's weird for me, I think Marquez edged the fight, and I thought it was one of the best fights of the last few years.........

But I dunno, I thought both of them were disappointing in some ways. I think they both looked vulnurable and honestly believe Juan Guzman would outbox both of them.

They probably stay where they are p4p but I think Calzaghe is a better and more dominant fighter than either.

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I am just dowloading it so will watch later tonight

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by Fl!p Flash

I have Marquez moving down to number #6, in front of his brother Rafa.

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By moving Marquez down that far, you're actually degrading Manny's win, because you're saying Marquez wasn't really as good as people thought, and that therefore Manny doesn't deserve that much credit. Do you really think that way?

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Ok, you are implying that being in #6 is horrible. Well, it's not.

BOTH OF THEM DESERVES THAT MUCH CREDIT.

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No, I'm not saying #6 is horrible. I'm saying #6 isn't as good as #3, or #4, or #5. If you're moving Marquez down to #6, then you're saying he wasn't really as good as people said he was.