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If Calzaghe only has one more fight, will he be throwning away a chance of being regarded as one of the greatest ever boxers ?
I believe that the record for the longest reigning champion and the most title defences are only a few fights away, if Calzaghe remained unbeaten and these records were broken , would Calzaghe then achieve boxing immortality ?, especially if he held those records for the next 20 or 30 years.
Calzaghe seems to have little motivation for fighting these days and the only fighters I think he is interested in fighting are Pavlik and RJJ. He has already hinted that he might have 2 fights rather than one.
Due to his lack of interest in other fighters I think he is quite aware that if he attempts to break Joe Louis`s record he would possibly lose as he wouldnt be able to fire himself up for some fights.
This isnt a go at Calzaghe. I think he is right to bow out at this stage.
Fuckin hell?? What else do you want him to do?
Unified SMW champ one of the longest reigns in history,undefeated
Ring champ at 2 weight classes? fought his career with constant injury's.like a true champ worked around it.
The ignorance kills me.
Tins you have missed the point, i think Calzaghe's achievements are fantastic. But he would not make a top 30 list of all time great boxers, yet if he broke these records which are a few fights away, he would be regarded as a top 10 fighter of all time, alongside the likes off Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Louis etc.
if he wants to really cement his legacy he HAS to have more fights in the states, its just the way it is.
looking through his record the only real impressive fights I saw were the hopkins, lacy and Kessler ones.
He needs more fights with big name fighters or I don't think he will be remembered the way he wants to be.
im not a calzaghe hater either, I don't like or dislike him, he just hasnt fought enough over here for me to be interested.
I agree with you trampie. Calzaghe is still in fine physical and mental shape, the best fighters in the world from 160-175 are all well within his ability to beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie
A win over Pavlik would be huge, as he's America's greatest current middleweight and Ring champ. Calzaghe could go for a world title at 175 with a fight against Antonio Tarver. The Jones Jr fight would be a nice way to finish off his career and imo is a fight he should take before he retires but I'd really like him to go for either Tarver or Pavlik as well, preferably both if possible.
It's not inconceivable that he could break Marciano's 49-0 record and enter into boxing immortality.
If I was Calzaghe I'd fight twice more this year, next time out a stay busy fight against a light punching nobody, a Manfredo rematch ideally lol.
Then in Decemeber go for a Roy Jones Jr megafight which presuming he wins puts him at 47-0
Then in 09 he could go for the glory with fights against Kelly Pavlik and Antonio Tarver (He'd be wise to avoid Dawson imo, the risk is not worth the reward) and then sign off with one last fight, maybe by taking on Carl Froch, (who hopefully will be a champ by then) in what would be a great all British clash between the old champion and the young pretender (although Froch is already 30)
A great way to sign off his career and all those fights are winnable. But it's an ambitious challenge and Calzaghe likely won't want to risk his 0 with such a dangerous fight schedule.
No i get you mate. I just dont think the opponents are there to beat those records with strong enough opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie
But i suppose i do slightly agree with you maybe.Only one thing i would like to see Joe do and thats fight pavlik.
thats the only viable opponent out there for Joe that IMO would increase his standing p4p.Anyone else is just a pay-day.
If he could win that fight no-one else would be worth it.
Bilbo i have come up with virtually the same schedule and time frame as you, if Joe retires 46 and 0 {having beaten Jones} he will be regarded as a marvelous boxer if he retires 50 and 0 {3 fights Cardiff, 1 fight Madison Square - no altitude, 2 of the fights against Stellar opposition and 2 against average opposition} Calzaghe retires as a legend.
I'd like to see him fight Glen Johnson, but obviously it won't happen now. Johnson is still right in the mix at LHW and in line to fight anybody willing. Hope he isn't left on the sidelines while the other big names fight each other. I think Johnson has a lot more to offer than Tarver at this stage, aside from notoriety, and would potentially give Calzaghe as tough a fight as anyone, barring maybe Pavlik if he found a home for the right, but maybe he couldn't. Johnson would certainly put a lot of pressure on Joe, it would be a grueling fight that's why I don't think Calzaghe would take it.
Calzaghe is not an all time great , so he cant throw it away if he has another 50 fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie
I will try and answer my own question about Calzaghe possibly giving up greatness and becoming a boxing immortal.
Even if Calzaghe got to 50 and 0 breaking the longest reigning champion record and the most title defences to boot, i personally would not think he was the greatest ever boxer, but i do think he would be perceived by history as at least being regarded as one of the greatest ever boxers.
A good example is Rocky Marciano seen by the man in the street as a legend, never lost a fight so famous that a hollywood blockbuster film was made about him.
Yet boxing fans know that as good as he obviously was, he was only champion for 3 years and only won the world title 7 times, he does not usually make a top ten list of all time greats, yet people that were not even born when he was fighting have heard of him.
Calzaghe could be missing the chance to be that well known even if most boxing experts did not believe him to be an all time top tenner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doot
spot on
However much i hate to admit it joe has at times tended to side away from fighting the big names and opting instead for a good pay day back home, that in itself is a common trait under frank warren.
Why oh why joe would choose to fight his final fight in a place he has fought and won on endless occasions (cardiff) is beyond me.
The MGM, madison square garden, staples centre - plenty of massive arenas stateside where joe can attract MAJOR box office sales by fighting.
Joe doesnt need jones jr, he has proven already he can live with the legends from yesteryear, pavlik or/and one last defining unification fight at 168 or 175 would be a fitting way for JC to end his career
He must atleast defeat Pavlik and RJJr to cement his legacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft
jones jr??
someone who hasnt K0`d an opponent for 6 years. has a record of 3-3 since then and is now nothing more than a showhorse needing to be taken to stud.
Hopkins had the potential to beat JC, Jones jr wouldnt even have a fighting chance of getting anything other than a very big points loss.
I for one would not be ordering that on PPV as i would if it were pavlik/dawson/miranda!!
Jones is past his prime but he still has the speed with his right hand to cause Joe some problems.I can see Joe stopping Jones late on.
As for Pavlik he can be out boxed and gets fustrated we saw that against Taylor in the seconds fight although he did find away to win. Calzaghe is a better boxer than JT so iam picking Joe by ud in this fight.
It is too late for Joe to be considered a great, his heart and hands are not up to equalling Louis and Marciano's records, let him make big money with big names fighters who pose less risk like Hopkins and Jones.
Pavlik would be great. Miranda, ok. Jones I don't really care. Tarver not impressed.
Tarver is too much mouth, not enough action. I would rather he fight Glen Johnson. He doesn't just need the big names. He could fight a lower name that's risky. Also he needs a few more in U.S. and he could finish with a soft one at home, get a ko and hang em up. Storybook career.
He never beat the great middle weights os the 1990's in their primes. No Jones Jr. No Toney's. He needs to beat Taylor, Pavlik, Miranda and Roy Jones now before he will be etched withQuote:
Originally Posted by trampie
that Babe Ruth like immortality that you claim.
ok its no secret i'm not a fan of calzaghes as is seen with all the things i've said about him on here.
i think he should retire soon, he's not lost which has always been his main goal, he's not built as record full of great names but has held a title for more then 10 years, at this point he seems only interested in fighting 40 year olds which won't give him the respect he wants. he could have been a much bigger name years ago had he just done things different. he has been great for british boxing, he's given us some decent fights in the last 2 years, has been a great role model as far as his image is concerned i dont ever remember him being in the headlines for any bad behavier.
best thing i feel is for him to have his one last fight and call it a day, the old saying goes once a fighter talks about retirement........ he's already retired in his mind, pushing it and you'll most prob come unstuck
Exactly what i was thinking, who is Joe Calzaghe anyway? That's what boxing fans world wide were saying up until about two years ago, his achievements are exceptional but nobody knew about it for a long, long, time. JC needed to come to America years ago to be fully recognised as a true PFP World Champion and whether us non USA residents like it or not, it is the big apple and it is the home of boxing. I would like to see him fight Jones Jr on the big stage then rematch Kessler then fight Pavlik. That would take him to the middle of 2009, achievable IMO. He wins all 3 and you get big recognition and all time status.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doot
Well I guess that's remain to be seen. But I for sure imo, Calzaghe is difinitely not an all-time great (yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft
jones jr??
someone who hasnt K0`d an opponent for 6 years. has a record of 3-3 since then and is now nothing more than a showhorse needing to be taken to stud.
Hopkins had the potential to beat JC, Jones jr wouldnt even have a fighting chance of getting anything other than a very big points loss.
I for one would not be ordering that on PPV as i would if it were pavlik/dawson/miranda!!
Who did Marciano beat that were better than Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Marciano's record is no better than Joe's if you actually know boxing history.
He only defended his title six times for fucks sake. He won it against the 50's equivilant of Frank Bruno, an old guy who won the world title finally in his 4 or 5th attempt only to lose it in his second defense. And he was beating him on all the judges cards before Rocky put him away.
He only actually defended his title against 5 men and one of them was a rematch with Woolcott.
You have a myopic view of boxing history in that you can see weaknesses in a modern boxer's record but not in the past.
Calzaghe has already done as much as Marciano.
Bilbo if you dont consider Rocky a great then thats fine , but it doesnt make a guy who fought in a joke division and beat 3 good fighters a great either.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWho did Marciano beat that were better than Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Marciano's record is no better than Joe's if you actually know boxing history.
He only defended his title six times for fucks sake. He won it against the 50's equivilant of Frank Bruno, an old guy who won the world title finally in his 4 or 5th attempt only to lose it in his second defense. And he was beating him on all the judges cards before Rocky put him away.
He only actually defended his title against 5 men and one of them was a rematch with Woolcott.
You have a myopic view of boxing history in that you can see weaknesses in a modern boxer's record but not in the past.
Calzaghe has already done as much as Marciano.
Bilbo Relax! I never said Rocky was a great.
what more does he have to do? Kessler= Dominated well there went the "Next Big Thing". Then comes B-HOP(those of you that remember me know my love for B-HOP) and he beats him. Joe C has done what many criticised him for over the past few years, Including myself. I have nothing but respect for him and IMO he will be an all time great.
He should eventually be an ATG regardless... There are a lot of other guys didn't do all that much with their careers, certainly not as much as Calzaghe who are in the Hall of fame and people who are listed on the top 100 best fighters. If I have Hopkins in the top 50 p4p best fighters ever, I would have Calzaghe maybe 10 to 20 spots below him. I however I don't think breaking records really matter. I mean Calzaghe has foughten 3 legitimate opponents IMO in Eubanks, Kessler, and Hopkins, and two of those fights he won, and the other won is up to debate so he needs the Pavliks of the world and the Jones of the world for people to look back on him with fondness... People always look much more favorably on fighters in hindsight.
Perhaps i was wrong with my title thread as Joe Calzaghe is hinting that he may carry on, as he is not giving up his WBO super-middleweight title!!!
Joe is less than a year away from being the longest reigning champion ever {Joe Louis 11 years and 252 days}, 4 defenses away from equalling the most defences by a champion {Joe Louis 25} if he manages 4 more defences at super-middleweight plus beats Roy Jones jr at Light -Heavyweight he would be 50 wins 0 defeats beating Rocky Marciano career record.
It is easy for me to say sat in my armchair, but surely Joe needs to pull out all the stops and fight for 5 more fights, if he retires 46 or 47 and 0 he will go down as a great boxer if he retires 50 and 0 smashing every record in the book he will be perceived as a top 10 boxer of all time, i say perceived because you may not think he would be an all time top tenner but people in years to come would think rightly or wrongly that Calzaghe is a boxing immortal.
DONT YOU HAVE TO HAVE GREATNESS TO THROW IT AWAY ????Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlBilbo if you dont consider Rocky a great then thats fine , but it doesnt make a guy who fought in a joke division and beat 3 good fighters a great either.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWho did Marciano beat that were better than Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Marciano's record is no better than Joe's if you actually know boxing history.
He only defended his title six times for fucks sake. He won it against the 50's equivilant of Frank Bruno, an old guy who won the world title finally in his 4 or 5th attempt only to lose it in his second defense. And he was beating him on all the judges cards before Rocky put him away.
He only actually defended his title against 5 men and one of them was a rematch with Woolcott.
You have a myopic view of boxing history in that you can see weaknesses in a modern boxer's record but not in the past.
Calzaghe has already done as much as Marciano.
Was Rockys run in the Heavyweight division better than Calzaghes at 168?
Its fanboyism, the guy can punch ergo yay hes great.
Calzaghe and greatness in same sentance don't make me laugh.
Calzaghe is a great fighter and will go down as an atg, one bad performance against a guy that is the king of making fighters look bad and he is over-rated feather-fistedand chinny.
O the fickality of boxing fans.
Ive never liked him but i wouldn't say calzaghe is chinny but all time great???Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbrunoIve never liked him but i wouldn't say calzaghe is chinny but all time great???Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
If Hopkins is Calzaghe has to be.
Just because Calzaghe only just beat a 43 year old Hopkins doesn't make him a all time great.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by tysonbrunoIve never liked him but i wouldn't say calzaghe is chinny but all time great???Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
If Hopkins is Calzaghe has to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbrunoJust because Calzaghe only just beat a 43 year old Hopkins doesn't make him a all time great.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
If Hopkins is Calzaghe has to be.
Maybe not but Hopkins was the liniat 175lb champ coming off his best b2b career wins.
if that doesnt how about defending your title 22 times or being 18yrs undefeated or being only the second man in boxing history to hold all 5 recognised alphabets in one weight class. Or holding the 168lb liniar championship and the same time holding the 175lb.
Take your pick i could go on.
Hopkins had 2 back to back losses vs Taylor moved upto light heavy and beat i weight drained Tarver he then beat Winky Wright who was overweight really fighting wise.Calzaghe should have lost twice in my eyes to Hopkins and Robin Reid.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by tysonbrunoJust because Calzaghe only just beat a 43 year old Hopkins doesn't make him a all time great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Maybe not but Hopkins was the liniat 175lb champ coming off his best b2b career wins.
if that doesnt how about defending your title 22 times or being 18yrs undefeated or being only the second man in boxing history to hold all 5 recognised alphabets in one weight class. Or holding the 168lb liniar championship and the same time holding the 175lb.
Take your pick i could go on.
I disagree he beat Reid and Hopkins and he should have been greater fighter but he fell into the comfort zone with Warren and the rest is history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tysonbrunoHopkins had 2 back to back losses vs Taylor moved upto light heavy and beat i weight drained Tarver he then beat Winky Wright who was overweight really fighting wise.Calzaghe should have lost twice in my eyes to Hopkins and Robin Reid.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by tysonbruno
Maybe not but Hopkins was the liniat 175lb champ coming off his best b2b career wins.
if that doesnt how about defending your title 22 times or being 18yrs undefeated or being only the second man in boxing history to hold all 5 recognised alphabets in one weight class. Or holding the 168lb liniar championship and the same time holding the 175lb.
Take your pick i could go on.
You think Calzaghe lost to Hopkins and Reid? thankyou that clears up a lot.
Many thought Hopkins and Reid beat him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by tysonbrunoHopkins had 2 back to back losses vs Taylor moved upto light heavy and beat i weight drained Tarver he then beat Winky Wright who was overweight really fighting wise.Calzaghe should have lost twice in my eyes to Hopkins and Robin Reid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
You think Calzaghe lost to Hopkins and Reid? thankyou that clears up a lot.
Who did Rocky Marciano beat better than those guys ?? Ezzard Charles Archie Moore Joe Louis Jersey Joe Walcott Roland LaStarzaQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboWho did Marciano beat that were better than Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Marciano's record is no better than Joe's if you actually know boxing history.
He only defended his title six times for fucks sake. He won it against the 50's equivilant of Frank Bruno, an old guy who won the world title finally in his 4 or 5th attempt only to lose it in his second defense. And he was beating him on all the judges cards before Rocky put him away.
He only actually defended his title against 5 men and one of them was a rematch with Woolcott.
You have a myopic view of boxing history in that you can see weaknesses in a modern boxer's record but not in the past.
Calzaghe has already done as much as Marciano.