I'm not a huge Floyd fan but this comment is linked to an articl I saw in the ring. Floyd has 20 mathces of his 39 against champions no one else in boxing comes close! Why is Floyd called a cherry picker?
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I'm not a huge Floyd fan but this comment is linked to an articl I saw in the ring. Floyd has 20 mathces of his 39 against champions no one else in boxing comes close! Why is Floyd called a cherry picker?
His resume from 135 and 130 spectacular, but he's cherrypicked a little since leaving lightweight. He wasted 3 years against weak opposition at 140 and we never saw him become the real champion of that division until he beat Hatton at 147 (IMHO that was a JWW fight). Since coming to WW, he hasn't yet fought a true natural WW other than Baldomir. While Zab may have been linear champion, he is a smallish WW, at least compared to Cotto, Margo, Cintron, Clottey, etc.
Overall, in spite of cherrypicking since moving up to WW, he still probably has the best resume of any active fighter right now. I can't think of anybody active off the top of my head who has beaten more top quality opponents than Mayweather. We give him flack because we want to see him against the top guys at WW, and he's screwing around with the ODLH rematch and he wasted time in his prime fighting guys like N'Dou, Brussels, and a shot ass Sharmba Mitchell. Even with Chop-Chop, he probably could have made a more interesting fight.
I hate to be the spoiler in all of this but Oscar De La Hoya has the best resume in boxing. Floyd is also known for picking the weakest link in the divisions title holders to accomplish his championship victory. I also do not think Floyd has faced another title holder for a unification bout in his career.
Floyd Mayweather Jr's best opponent's are Diego Corrales, Jose Luis Castillo and Oscar De La Hoya. His other big champions were
Zab Judah after Judah lost to Carlos Baldomir
Arturo Gatti- A shot Arturo Gatti that Oscar beat 4 years earlier and 1 round sooner.
Demarcus Corley on his down slide.
Genaro Hernandez- Oscar beat him 3 years earlier and 2 rounds sooner
Angel Manfredy- No feather in the cap there. A long past his best Jorge Paez and Gatti were his claims to fame.
Jose Luis Castillo- Everyone knows the first fight was a gift.
Top names De La Hoya has faced.
Jimmy Bredahl, Jorge Paez, John John Molina, Rafael Ruelas, Genaro Hernandez (Before Floyd did), Jessie James Leija, Julio Cesar Chavez, Pernell Whitaker, Miguel Angel Gonzalez, Ike Quartey, Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley, Arturo Gatti, Javier Castillejo, Fernando Vargas, Yori Boy Campos, Felix Sturm, Ricardo Mayorga, Bernard Hopkins, Steve Forbes and Floyd Himeslf. Also add the top contenders he has beaten and you have maybe one of the best resumes in the history of the sport. Also many of these guys were on the pound for pound list when De La Hoya faced them.
I am not saying that Floyd is not a great fighter but resume wise De La Hoya takes the prize hands down. Yes he is undefeated but is he really undefeated against the absolute best the sport and each of his perspective divisions had to offer?
For me its a toss up between Dela Hoya and Hopkins.
Hopkins had a relatively easy reign at Middle and his best wins are against blown up Welterweights. Great fighter, but his opposition is nowhere near the likes of De La Hoya
Superheavyrhun did an interesting post a while back to objectively rate all the champs according srtictly to stats, maybe he could dig it up, it was a very good read. Bottom line was that Floyd was on top with his +/- and ODLH has tasted defeat. Floyd's resume is much better than most people will give him credit for, but his inactivity and distractions from boxing are making me lose some respect for him as a boxer. I can certainly respect someone that's chasing dollars, it's hard for me to hold that against him, but when it takes away from him fighting who he needs to fight it becomes an issue for me.
cotto`s currently beaten about 11-12 world class opponents in succession (discount gomez)
The facts are the facts;)
No mention of Hatton?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockNo mention of Hatton?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Havent you heard
Hatton is now officially an average, washed up fighter after his close shave 120-108 win against lazcano.
:biting:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockNo mention of Hatton?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
I forgot all about Ricky Hatton. I was trying to do all of this off the top of my head so you have to excuse the non mention of Ricky.
Yea no kidding... People forget so fast... Ironically enough its Bullshit that Hatton fell of the PFP list but Hop is on it:confused::rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by JT RockNo mention of Hatton?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Havent you heard
Hatton is now officially an average, washed up fighter after his close shave 120-108 win against lazcano.
:biting:
I'm at home now and so I have the magazine the my number was actually incorrect but Floyd is still ahead by some margin here is a list along with the amount of champions each fighter has beaten.
Champions defeated
Floyd Mayweather (12)
Manny Pacquiao (7)
Juan Manuel Marquez (4)
Bernard Hopkins (10)
Joe Calzhage (6)
Israel Vazquez (3)
Miguel Cotto (7)
Ricky Hatton (7)
Kelly Pavlik (1)
Rafael Marquez (4)
I mean you can claim that those were 'weak' champions but that's subjective nonsense Mayweather has certainly earned the right to at least be respected.
The fact that 2 judges scored it 120-108 for Hatton shows they were in the pocket. No matter how many knock downs Lazcano would of scored he was going to winQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by JT RockNo mention of Hatton?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Havent you heard
Hatton is now officially an average, washed up fighter after his close shave 120-108 win against lazcano.
:biting:
Can you clarify something...
Is this how many Champions hes faced meaning that some of them by the time they fought were "former" champs?
Am I correct?
If so why not better find how many times they challenged for a title against a champion and won?
ODLH: Bredahl, Rafael, JCC, Pernell, Javier, Vargas, Sturm, Mayorga
PBF: Hernandez, JLC, Gatti, Zab, Baldomir, ODLH
*Let's not forget Zab lost this title to Baldo but the IBF literally gave the title back to Zab after they didn't receive their cut from the pie. I'll give you that one since the name didn't carry any weight by that time. IMO
Now look at those names and tell me which of the PBF opponents comes close to Pernell?
So you are giving ODLH resume credit for fighting (but losing) to Tito, Shane, and Hopkins? You also call the first Castillo fight a gift decision, but wasn't the Sturm fight pretty much a gift decision for Oscar? Some would claim Oscar got a bit of a gift in the Quartey fight. And Floyd came back and handled Castillo pretty easily in the rematch.
You mention half a dozen middle of the road guys in Oscar's favor, like Ruelas and Molina, but you leave Jesus Chavez and Carlos Hernandez off the list for Floyd, who are far superior fighters. Chavez was shot when Oscar faced him. And Floyd was freakin 21 when he fought Genaro Hernandez! That counts for something. You knock Manfredy as being no feather because his best wins were Gatti and Paez, but then you use Paez to support your case for Oscar. Manfredy also beat Gabriel Ruelas, a damn good fighter who beat Leija, who you use to support Oscar. When Gatti fought Manfredy, Gatti was pretty much in his prime.
He also just knocked out the top 10 p4p and undefeated Ring #1 LWW champ Ricky Hatton. Oh, and he beat a much larger ODLH at 154 when he started his career at 130. Oscar, who started his career at 135 could never managed a quality win at MW. Don't tell me Sturm. Even if you think he won, it wasn't a quality win with that performance.
Oscar also has a habit of catching guys on the down side, ie Chavez, Pernell, Campos, Mayorga, even Castillejo.
Oscar has a great resume and come September, I'll be rooting like hell for it to be "the night of the jab" so Oscar can put a win over Floyd on his resume. From a personality standpoint, I can't stand PBF and I want to he him humiliated/humbled. Still, facts are facts, Oscar's resume LOOKS much better at the surface level, because you see wins over Chavez, Whitaker, Quartey, and Leija, but Chavez was shot, Whitaker was on the downside, and Quartey was nearly a loss. In his biggest fights, Oscar against prime competition has always come up short, except maybe he got robbed by Mosley.
I respect Oscar a ton more for being willing to take risky fights, staying active, and generally being a good representative for the sport. If you include those as part of his resume, I guess Oscar wins, but if you go just based on the wins and losses, Floyd ranks ahead, unless Oscar adds Floyd to his in the the fall.
No all of these fighters were champions when Floyd fought them.
It means how many former title holders he's beaten. Current or past. IBF, WBA or WBC. The WBO is not included since The Ring magazine never acknowledged it. So a win over (former WBO title holder) DeMarcus Corley doesn't countQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Not commenting on whether he gets credit for losing, but in terms of the fights you mentioned....No doubt he won the 2nd Mosley fight, amd imo he won the Trinidad fight. I think to go as long as he did with B-Hop deserves credit, considering Hop is naurally about 180 pounds and DLH started at LightweightQuote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Fuck that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseIt means how many former title holders he's beaten. Current or past. IBF, WBA or WBC. The WBO is not included since The Ring magazine never acknowledged it. So a win over (former WBO title holder) DeMarcus Corley doesn't countQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Look at the list I made that's how many champions (title holders) they've fought & beaten. That's where you see the real numbers. 8 for ODLH and 6 for PBF but look at the names also.
Like Ring magazine I never acknowledge the garbage that is the WBO. So I remove Bredahl (:lolhaha:) and Strum. Making it 6-6. But Oscar names are clearly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickFuck that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseIt means how many former title holders he's beaten. Current or past. IBF, WBA or WBC. The WBO is not included since The Ring magazine never acknowledged it. So a win over (former WBO title holder) DeMarcus Corley doesn't countQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Look at the list I made that's how many champions (title holders) they've fought & beaten. That's where you see the real numbers. 8 for ODLH and 6 for PBF but look at the names also.
Floyd does have an impressive resume. Can I fire him now for sleeping on the job?
For as much as he has accomplished, I don't think it is fair for the boxing world to wait around for him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
I never said Oscar beat all of his opponets I said the resume was better. I also mentioned somewhere I believe that Oscar beat common opponents at a younger stage in their careers. A stage when the win actually was something of accomplishment.
I personally rank Oscars resume better. You may rank Floyd's as better but it is my opinion and I think I am entitled to it. I also mentioned something in my second post in this thread that I was naming the opponents off the top of my head so the fact I left 2 or 3 out is not too bad considering.
I have never heard Floyd openly seek out the best. Never one time have I seen him push for a fight with the best in the division he sat in at the time. Win or lose Oscar has sought out the fights. Floyd did not seek out De La Hoya Oscar pushed him for the fight. Same goes for the Hatton bout. I was a Floyd Mayweather JR fan until he left the 135lb division.
Again he is a fighter with great skills but happy not going at it with dangerous opponents.
You mention him just knocking out the #1 ranked LWW in the world but isn't Floyd officially a welterweight? Should he not be looking for the top welterweight opponents out there? I hope you are not going to start using money and fan appeal as an arguement for that one.
I know if Oscar De La Hoya was fighting at welterweight he would be looking for a fight with Cotto or at least Margarito. Regardless if he won or lost.
Oh please VD tell us all how you scored this contest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe fact that 2 judges scored it 120-108 for Hatton shows they were in the pocket. No matter how many knock downs Lazcano would of scored he was going to winQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Havent you heard
Hatton is now officially an average, washed up fighter after his close shave 120-108 win against lazcano.
:biting:
i could so do with a good chuckle and what with how you assessed hopkins-JC i just know im gonna get one....
Either way you look at it Floyd has an amazing resume and certainly does not deserve the stick he gets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' UpQuote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
I never said Oscar beat all of his opponets I said the resume was better. I also mentioned somewhere I believe that Oscar beat common opponents at a younger stage in their careers. A stage when the win actually was something of accomplishment.
I personally rank Oscars resume better. You may rank Floyd's as better but it is my opinion and I think I am entitled to it. I also mentioned something in my second post in this thread that I was naming the opponents off the top of my head so the fact I left 2 or 3 out is not too bad considering.
I have never heard Floyd openly seek out the best. Never one time have I seen him push for a fight with the best in the division he sat in at the time. Win or lose Oscar has sought out the fights. Floyd did not seek out De La Hoya Oscar pushed him for the fight. Same goes for the Hatton bout. I was a Floyd Mayweather JR fan until he left the 135lb division.
Again he is a fighter with great skills but happy not going at it with dangerous opponents.
You mention him just knocking out the #1 ranked LWW in the world but isn't Floyd officially a welterweight? Should he not be looking for the top welterweight opponents out there? I hope you are not going to start using money and fan appeal as an arguement for that one.
I know if Oscar De La Hoya was fighting at welterweight he would be looking for a fight with Cotto or at least Margarito. Regardless if he won or lost.
Hey, I respect your opinion, and it's a good argument. If you were trying to tell me that, idunno, Zab Judah, had a better resume, I wouldn't have taken the time to reply in detail. It's a good debate. Floyd is technically a WW right now, but he's really a natural LW or LWW. He fights at WW because he can make bigger fights up there, but he would have come down to 140 and done the same thing if it was more practical to make the fight there.
I agree with you 100% that Oscar has alway sought out the best and he's done in without playing all kinds of stupid games like Floyd does. At the lower weights, Floyd sought out the best, but like I agreed, he has cherry-picked at higher weights and didn't fight nearly as often as Oscar did. If he goes on to beat Cotto, it will quite a lot of critics. Floyd wants to fight Cotto, he just wants to build hype and cash in again with Oscar.
I don't agree with trying to minimize the Hatton win. It's a legit, world class star on his resume. Right now, Oscar time on his side, and we'll see what happens when both careers are over.
In my opinion the guy with the best resume in boxing, at least in terms of who he's fought, if not always winning is Evander Holyfield.
Look at his record.
Tyson twice
Lewis twice
Bowe 3 times
Foreman
Holmes
Moorer twice
Qawi twice
Even past his best in mostly losing efforts he still managed to fight the best that was out there
Byrd
Rahman
Toney
Ruiz
Ibragimov
Plus good wins over Buster Douglas, Michael Dokes etc.
No heavyweight in the history of boxing save for possibly Ali has fought as many great fighters as Holyfield.
Lazcano won 3 rounds. Only Hatton groupies and those corrupt judges thought Lazcano got shut outQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammerOh please VD tell us all how you scored this contest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe fact that 2 judges scored it 120-108 for Hatton shows they were in the pocket. No matter how many knock downs Lazcano would of scored he was going to winQuote:
Originally Posted by hattonthehammer
i could so do with a good chuckle and what with how you assessed hopkins-JC i just know im gonna get one....
Dam,did the Hatton forum shut down? All of a sudden,every thread has some Hatton fan talking about him in it,even though the thread may have nothing to do with Hatton!
I am not Floyd fan, but i respect his tremendous skill and talent. That being said...i think his resume is extremely weak for someone who claims they are the best fighter of all time. Maybe he is a victim of circumstance: the past few years don't match up with the era of Duran, Hearns, Hagler, or Leonard. Maybe he has cherry picked his opponents in recent years. Or maybe it's a combination of both these things. But ultimately...the three biggest names on his resume (and by biggest i mean the fighters that have brought him the most attention and praise) are Gatti, Oscar, and Hatton. He certainly has fought some quality opposition aside from these three...but it is these three fighters that are the BIG names on his resume. Gatti was perfectly selected for Floyd. Literally a fighter who Floyd could treat like a punching bag. Hatton, for all of his spirit, was physically too small and one dimensional for Floyd. This leaves Oscar. Sure, Oscar wasn't in his prime when he fought Floyd. But i still give Floyd credit for fighting a bigger fighter and puncher than him. Does this make Floyd's win over DelaHoya an incredible and defining victory...not really. Floyd's resume is simply solid. It's not great and it certainly isn't all time great. Maybe the last few fight of his career might change that.
Not smart logic at all... Styles make fightsQuote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Thats a bunch of booshit... Mayweather was calling Oscar out since his days at 130...Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Last time I checked when you reach the top of the mountain you are the one getting called out, not the other way around.
So going up to 154 to fight Oscar who was one of the top guys wasnt dangerous? Fighting Hatton wasnt dangerous either?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
#1 he will undoubtedly fight the winner of the Marg-Cotto contest when he beats Oscar again...Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Oscar fought his last fight at 150lbs with Forbes, and has talked about rematching Floyd at 147, so again your logic and knowledge is a little off there junior.
All of you do realize that this argument is pure speculation and opinion? Some of you act like what you say is a stone cold fact, and, unless you are magically clairevoyant, there's no way you can say what Floyd's gonna do in the future.
Unless one of you is Floyd? Even then I bet you still don't know ;)
The bottom line is that you can drag out a fighter's list of opponents, pick away at the condition of the opponent at the time of the fight, make a lot of opinionated judgements as to the caliber of that fighter at that point in time...
Kind of like chasing your tail. Either way, please don't act like your beliefs translate into fact. Please realize that your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.
Thank you.
I agree with you. Oscar has the better resume. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone with a better resume than Oscars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Your arguements show biase though..'A shot Gatti who Oscar beat 1 round earlier?'...'Genaro Hernandez who Oscar beat 2 rounds sooner?'
So does winning sooner make the performance more impressive? Who would most people say had a better performance against Gatti? I believe most would say Floyd. Gatti caught Oscar at times where as Floyd was invincible against him. There is also an arguement to be made that Floyd was more impressive against Genaro also.
It is also biased because you ripped apart PBF's opposition whilst only namedropping Oscar's opposition. You failed to mention at what point in their career's they were etc
In conclusion, yeah, I agree with you but if you're making an arguement you need to flip the coin and show the other side.
[quote=JT Rock;526479][quote=Put Em' Up;526358]
Thats a bunch of booshit... Mayweather was calling Oscar out since his days at 130...Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
Indeed he was, check out his victory after Corley too. He calls out every LWW worth a damn. Also he wanted Zab when he was the unified WW Champion. Not his fault Zab is a phuck head and went on to lose it.
So going up to 154 to fight Oscar who was one of the top guys wasnt dangerous? Fighting Hatton wasnt dangerous either?Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' Up
They sure were :cool:
Fair enough, both sides have valid points. I guess we will have to wait until both men hang them up for good to make a firm decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanQuote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' UpQuote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
I never said Oscar beat all of his opponets I said the resume was better. I also mentioned somewhere I believe that Oscar beat common opponents at a younger stage in their careers. A stage when the win actually was something of accomplishment.
I personally rank Oscars resume better. You may rank Floyd's as better but it is my opinion and I think I am entitled to it. I also mentioned something in my second post in this thread that I was naming the opponents off the top of my head so the fact I left 2 or 3 out is not too bad considering.
I have never heard Floyd openly seek out the best. Never one time have I seen him push for a fight with the best in the division he sat in at the time. Win or lose Oscar has sought out the fights. Floyd did not seek out De La Hoya Oscar pushed him for the fight. Same goes for the Hatton bout. I was a Floyd Mayweather JR fan until he left the 135lb division.
Again he is a fighter with great skills but happy not going at it with dangerous opponents.
You mention him just knocking out the #1 ranked LWW in the world but isn't Floyd officially a welterweight? Should he not be looking for the top welterweight opponents out there? I hope you are not going to start using money and fan appeal as an arguement for that one.
I know if Oscar De La Hoya was fighting at welterweight he would be looking for a fight with Cotto or at least Margarito. Regardless if he won or lost.
Hey, I respect your opinion, and it's a good argument. If you were trying to tell me that, idunno, Zab Judah, had a better resume, I wouldn't have taken the time to reply in detail. It's a good debate. Floyd is technically a WW right now, but he's really a natural LW or LWW. He fights at WW because he can make bigger fights up there, but he would have come down to 140 and done the same thing if it was more practical to make the fight there.
I agree with you 100% that Oscar has alway sought out the best and he's done in without playing all kinds of stupid games like Floyd does. At the lower weights, Floyd sought out the best, but like I agreed, he has cherry-picked at higher weights and didn't fight nearly as often as Oscar did. If he goes on to beat Cotto, it will quite a lot of critics. Floyd wants to fight Cotto, he just wants to build hype and cash in again with Oscar.
I don't agree with trying to minimize the Hatton win. It's a legit, world class star on his resume. Right now, Oscar time on his side, and we'll see what happens when both careers are over.
I owe you rep when allowed
yes
So you don't think that was a slip VD? I saw it twice, once in real time and once on the replay and it looked like a slip to me...
Put em up.. you're stretching QUITE a bit here..
JT already touched upon you saying that Floyd doesn't face any dangerous fighters..
maybe you say this because floyd is not a brawler and floyd doesn't get hit nearly as much as another opponent would fighting someone.. but give me a break.. he has fought PLENTY of dangerous fighters.. off the top of my head, the most popular being Corrales, DLH, JLC, Gatti (slow, but has power)
All of those guys have PLENTY of KO power and plenty of KO's..
As far as this topic goes.. DLH has an unbelievable resume.. second to barely anyone.. Floyd is getting there.. he sure has fought plenty of great opposition.. it isn't his fault he beats them all so convincingly..
I sometimes think that if Floyd was a brawler and got into huge battles with all of the top names that he fought then everyone would be ranting and raving about how good he is.. just because of his style he's looked at in a different light..
Floyd has the best resume simply because he has no losses. As far as competiton, or big names, Holy, BHOP, and Oscar, as well as Winky or Roy have all fought alot of top guys, maybe more than Floyd, but, Floyd hasn't lost yet. I guess it's really how you judge a "resume". If it's just on competition, would a fighter that fought the top 10, but lost 6 of those be considered better than a fighter that fought a mixed half of the top 30 and won em all? Oscar and Holyfield have fought the absolute best of their era, all credit due regardless.
Have to add about the Gatti statement that he was already shot when he fought Floyd, IMO, Gatti after Ward part 1, was the best he'd ever been, although that's not saying a whole lot.
I think Morrales, Barrerra, and Pac all have good resumes.
I would like to add Winky's resume to the list. He has solid fighter after solid fighter.