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Roy Jones: the boxing genius
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Yeah, Roy could punch from anywhere and could put pretty much any 2 punches in his arsenal together back to back. I remember against Julio Gonzalez where he threw a left hook as he jumped in and then a left uppercut as he moved back out, and it was with blinding speed. There is a very good case to be made that he is the best offensive fighter of all time and I don't have any problems with that. Don't think he was the smartest fighter of all time, either that or he lost all his smarts with age which I doubt because he's fought a bunch of really dumb fights here recently especially against Johnson who is a smart fighter himself.
Also, the reason Roy looked so super human was one, because he didn't fight the competition of the others for the better part of his prime. And since he was a great offensive fighter, he didn't have to fight as much to the level of his opponents. Whitaker would work with what was given to him, he would create openings with his defense much of the time instead of forcing the issue but in reality he was just as dominant as Roy was as far as convincingly beating opponents and also doing things many did not think was possible for a fighter to do.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
I disagree. I think his intelligence in the ring needed his body to do what his mind wanted it to do. He's only really gotten his ass kicked once in terms of the technique of the right. In RJJ-Tarver 2 he got hit by an honest ridiculously clean shot that could have landed on anyone. Tarver was a good fighter. Only Glen Johnson really beat the shit out of Roy JOnes and made him look really flawed. By then Roy wasn't the same fighter so its not really a fair judgment to make. Its like Ali-Holmes, but Johnson isn't anywhere near as good as Holmes in any sense.
Roy is the smartest fighter at what he did, nobody ever dominated like him except maybe welterweight Robinson, but the fight game has evolved since then. Roy definitely did things differently, saying he was unorthodox would be the understatement of the century, but his style worked.
The only other person I see up there with him in terms of intelligence in the ring is Hopkins, but its hard to say unless they fought now where they are physically on a more equal playing field because in his prime Roy was always too good athletically for Bernard.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Best offensive fighter? Ray Robinson without a doubt, He threw combinations like Roy, he had as close to Roy's abilites as anyone, but not quite. What makes his offense better, but his overall ring intelligence less so is that he was willing to trade to land his punches.That definitely was the style back then, but because of that he landed a lot cleaner punches on his opponents, and he was a bigger welterweight then Roy was at SMW. What made Roy so special is he could do everything he did offensively, and still he was almost impossible to hit, and that takes more then just overwhelming athletic ability to accomplish, I've only seen him, whitaker, pep, and Mayweather really to it at the level they did, and Benitez to a lesser to degree when he was on top of his game.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
I agree he is the most gifted/talented boxer ever.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
He took the fundermental art to a whole new level... In the respect of some of his punching style, it was almost like street fighting in the sense, "i'm here, the other guy's there, his head is there, now I have to get this fist, into his head" then bang, he'd launch into attack and usually with devestating consequences to the other guys head... Yet in every fundermental respect, he was as fine tuned as they come...
He's one fighter that you just cannot use the word "overrated" for... I have absolutely no doubt that a prime Roy (and prime Roy was prime Roy), he could be thrown in with anyone of the past that competed in his main weight divisions, and he would never have less than a 50/50 chance of knocking them out...
For all his ability to not get hit (which was truely among the best guys out there), he could take punches well, he stayed relax even while being brawled on the ropes, and still was one of the best and most effective attacking boxers of recent times...
A once in a decade boxer....
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Best offensive fighter? Ray Robinson without a doubt, He threw combinations like Roy, he had as close to Roy's abilites as anyone, but not quite. What makes his offense better, but his overall ring intelligence less so is that he was willing to trade to land his punches.That definitely was the style back then, but because of that he landed a lot cleaner punches on his opponents, and he was a bigger welterweight then Roy was at SMW. What made Roy so special is he could do everything he did offensively, and still he was almost impossible to hit, and that takes more then just overwhelming athletic ability to accomplish, I've only seen him, whitaker, pep, and Mayweather really to it at the level they did, and Benitez to a lesser to degree when he was on top of his game.
Always the Roy tribute threads/posts make me want to dust off all my old RJJ fights to watch again... ;D
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.
Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.
Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.
So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
Ok so who had better athletic gifts than Roy Jones? WHo could play a semi pro basketball game and then dominate an opponent 12 rounds the same night? Hit a guy with 4 left hooks in a second? Whip guys WITHOUT using a jab?
There was no better athlete in boxing that Roy Jones, simply put he was a freak of nature and there will never be a guy who can do the things he could in the ring.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.
Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.
So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.
Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
OK Roy wasn't consistently fighting as good fighters as Oscar and Leonard (because his divisions didn't have the same level of competition) but he fought Toney and Hopkins in their primes and easily beat both and barring Hagler I'd put them up as being as good as anyone Oscar, Floyd or Leonard ever fought.
Another point is people seem to think that Roy didn't carry his power upto LHW. This is wrong he did (see Griffen II). The thing was he was at this point deemed as being the greatest fighter in the world (deservedly) and was trying to display his skills more than his power and this sometimes seemed as though he no longer had a big KO punch. The only division IMO he didn't carry his power upto was Heavyweight which is understandable when you consider he started as a Junior middleweight.
So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.
Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.
P4P? a rather strange comment seen as a prime Leonard couldnt get away from Hearns jab and right hand. And a Lightweight Duran was an animal i think Roys lack of workrate and lack of chin would be exposed.
Like i said if Roy fought those guys at there best weight. A win over James Toney and a gift over Antonio Tarver doesnt cut it for me im affraid. And again Leonard did things that Jones did and it was always against cans he could get away with it.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
Ok so who had better athletic gifts than Roy Jones? WHo could play a semi pro basketball game and then dominate an opponent 12 rounds the same night? Hit a guy with 4 left hooks in a second? Whip guys WITHOUT using a jab?
There was no better athlete in boxing that Roy Jones, simply put he was a freak of nature and there will never be a guy who can do the things he could in the ring.
You never seen Curtis Davis or Mr Perfect?
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.
Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonnyFolds
Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.
Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.
Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
So you consider Jones a better fighter P4P than Hearns and Duran? he is good but if Jones was a Welterweight i couldnt see him beating Hearns or if he were a Lightweight lasting 5rds with Duran.
Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.
P4P? a rather strange comment seen as a prime Leonard couldnt get away from Hearns jab and right hand. And a Lightweight Duran was an animal i think Roys lack of workrate and lack of chin would be exposed.
Like i said if Roy fought those guys at there best weight. A win over James Toney and a gift over Antonio Tarver doesnt cut it for me im affraid. And again Leonard did things that Jones did and it was always against cans he could get away with it.
First of all Roy had a different style to Leonard. Leonard used to take quite a few shots like he did against Hearns and Duran. Jones wouldn't do this no way, his counter punching and speed would have given Hearns fits. Also I like the way that you bring in the Tarver fight. That happened AFTER Roys venture to HW after which it was clear that Jones destroyed his own body by dropping back down to LHW. Why not use examples like Toney, Virgil Hill, Bernard Hopkins (28 years old), Mike McCallum and Reggie Johnson? At least Roy was in his prime and was still able bodied. To compare 2 men p4p, one who peaked at LHW to a man who peaked at Lightweight is impossible especially in this case because of obvious things such as Roys chin, that could not be counted beacuse he was being hit by a LHW when he was KO'd not a Lightweight and it wasn't until he was totally weight drained that we found out Roy had a weak chin (probably didn't before this). Duran was a great pressure fighter who was active throughout the whole fight and is without doubt one of the all time greats, but look at what Roy did to a good pressure fighter in Paz. I know he was nowhere near the quality of Duran but this is the only example of anything like Durans style I could think of that Roy has faced. Roy Jones is a better fighter P4P than Duran IMO and like Joe Tesatore said when talking about the fact he is sometimes criticised for his fights being too easy "well thats not his fault, he is just too good for his own good".
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonnyFolds
Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.
Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.
Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.
How? Jones started as a 154lb fighter! Leonard started at 147, so it would be like Roy retiring and coming back and fighting a SMW. Lennox was a heavyweight you know?
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Yes I do. I think that Roy would KO Hearns, too much skill and would be able to dodge his big power shots all night long and he would DO a similar if not better job on Duran as Leonard did in the second fight when he QUIT.
P4P? a rather strange comment seen as a prime Leonard couldnt get away from Hearns jab and right hand. And a Lightweight Duran was an animal i think Roys lack of workrate and lack of chin would be exposed.
Like i said if Roy fought those guys at there best weight. A win over James Toney and a gift over Antonio Tarver doesnt cut it for me im affraid. And again Leonard did things that Jones did and it was always against cans he could get away with it.
First of all Roy had a different style to Leonard. Leonard used to take quite a few shots like he did against Hearns and Duran. Jones wouldn't do this no way, his counter punching and speed would have given Hearns fits. Also I like the way that you bring in the Tarver fight. That happened AFTER Roys venture to HW after which it was clear that Jones destroyed his own body by dropping back down to LHW. Why not use examples like Toney, Virgil Hill, Bernard Hopkins (28 years old), Mike McCallum and Reggie Johnson? At least Roy was in his prime and was still able bodied. To compare 2 men p4p, one who peaked at LHW to a man who peaked at Lightweight is impossible especially in this case because of obvious things such as Roys chin, that could not be counted beacuse he was being hit by a LHW when he was KO'd not a Lightweight and it wasn't until he was totally weight drained that we found out Roy had a weak chin (probably didn't before this). Duran was a great pressure fighter who was active throughout the whole fight and is without doubt one of the all time greats, but look at what Roy did to a good pressure fighter in Paz. I know he was nowhere near the quality of Duran but this is the only example of anything like Durans style I could think of that Roy has faced. Roy Jones is a better fighter P4P than Duran IMO and like Joe Tesatore said when talking about the fact he is sometimes criticised for his fights being too easy "well thats not his fault, he is just too good for his own good".
Difference is Duran proved this by constantly fighting the best fighter his resume is superb Roys compared... well, thats all im gonna say.. well..
We will never know how good Roy was because he only really fought two elite fighters in Toney and Tarver and he lost one. Hopkins was a good win but Hopkins at 38 would obliterate Hopkins of 28.
Jones was a great fighter very skilled but against who? Roy is the best fighter in the last 15yrs imo but i thinl Sugar Ray Tommy Hears and Roberto Duran all beat him p4p.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JonnyFolds
Well you also gotta consider that by the time Jones was fighting Tarver and Johnson getting KOed, Leonard was making a comeback and getting his butt whooped by Camacho and Norris.
Interesting that both of these guys faded at about 35-36. Jones had more fights, but Leonard def fought some more dangerous opposition. I would not call Jones' lineup "easy" though. Seems like everyone thinks that Jones just skated by in the 90's. Hell no, he moved up in weight and fought everybody. I am sure i am not alone when I think that Jones has more than a sporting chance against Calzaghe. One thing you gotta remember about Jones, he NEVER came in any of his fights out of shape. And with Calz it's gonna go 12 rounds. So will Jones pull off the upset? I think not, but it will be close.
Jones is the right genius, and imo, top 5 p4p fighter of all time.
Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.
How? Jones started as a 154lb fighter! Leonard started at 147, so it would be like Roy retiring and coming back and fighting a SMW. Lennox was a heavyweight you know?
Leonard retired at 147lbs so he came back and stepped up two weight classes. Jones was at 175lbs then went up two divisions.
Roy wasnt going to retire at 154lbs was he? he is known as a lightheavyweight and was at that weight from his 20s.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Leonard retired at 147lb then came back after 3YRS OFF and beat Marvin Hagler who was unbeaten for 11yrs at 160lbs. That is one of the greatest things in boxing history it would be like Jones taking 3yrs off then beating Lennox Lewis.
How? Jones started as a 154lb fighter! Leonard started at 147, so it would be like Roy retiring and coming back and fighting a SMW. Lennox was a heavyweight you know?
Leonard retired at 147lbs so he came back and stepped up two weight classes. Jones was at 175lbs then went up two divisions.
Roy wasnt going to retire at 154lbs was he? he is known as a lightheavyweight and was at that weight from his 20s.
He only retired because of the detached retina. If Jones had got a detached retina at 154 yes he probably would have retired.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Roys best win ( on paper atleast ) was against James Toney or Bernard Hopkins yet even though he wasnt particluary sensational in either of those fights I think at his best Jones is possibly the greatest fighter ever.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
I think Jones is the best athlete of our era in any sport.
I think hes the most talented fighter of all time.
If it wasnt for Sugar Ray Robinsons crazy record, i would have Roy as the greatest of all time. He may be.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
You made a case? Funny, it sounded a lot like an opinion.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Excellent write up Taeth. Roy is the greatest fighter I have ever seen, and would have been regarded as the greatest ever if he retired after Ruiz. However his legacy would look good with a victory over Galzaghe and not harmed.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting......... now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
You rest your case? Wow that really convinces me that you have any idea about what your talking about.
What is the Tony- Tarver thing? He definitely hasn't been the same fighter comming back down.
He definitely was the best athlete ever, nobody had his combination of reflexes, speed, and power. He was nearly as fast as Leonard, Mosley, Taylor, etc were at their prime weight classes, but he was 3-5 weight classes above them. Of any of the fast guys except WW Robinson he had more power then all of them. He had the best reflexes we have ever seen, even Ali, Whitaker, Mayweather, Leonard couldn't compare to him.
Who did Roy Jones Jr fight who were respectable competition in any era? James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Mike Maccallum, Virgill Hill, Clinton Woods, Julio Gonzalez, Reggie Johnson, Montell Griffin, Tony Thornton, and there are more, but my point is that Roy fought plenty of respectable competition especially James Toney who would have been right in the mix in any middleweight era, and Roy Jones Jr dominated all of them. Look how well Clinton Woods has done against Glen Johnson, and other guys now, and watch his fight against a past his prime Roy Jones Jr. who wasn't shot. He was completely owned. Same with Johnson, Hill, Johnson, Griffin in their second fight.
Think about it this way if you took away Leonard's great chin he would have been knocked out by Hearns, Hagler, Duran, and other guys as he went higher up.
If you took away Hagler's chin, he would have been KO'ed many times based on skill alone.
Same with DUran, Hearns was KO'ed his fair share.
Roy got KO'ed way above his natural weight class(LHW) only after he came way back down from HW. He looked tiny at LHW against guys like Hill, Telesco, Harmon, Glen Kelly, Gonzalez.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GAME
Roys best win ( on paper atleast ) was against James Toney or Bernard Hopkins yet even though he wasnt particluary sensational in either of those fights I think at his best Jones is possibly the greatest fighter ever.
Ho can you say he wasn't sensational against James Toney are you fucking blind?
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wesrman
I think Jones is the best athlete of our era in any sport.
I think hes the most talented fighter of all time.
If it wasnt for Sugar Ray Robinsons crazy record, i would have Roy as the greatest of all time. He may be.
You can't put him as one of the best fighters, you can't put him up there with Ali, Leonard, Armstrong, Pep, Robinson, etc. not because he wasn't as good as them, but because he didn't fight enough of the right caliber of opponents to deserve it. I think he is as good as them, but he won't be in their league because of who he fought and thats valid to a degree.
Also about the athletic thing again its like a hundred meter dash, you don't need to have the fastest guys around you to be the fastest yourself. Roy Jones Jr didn't need to be fighting Hagler, Hearns, etc to change the fact htat he was a better athlete then any of them. Your competition doesn't mean shit about what kind of athlete you are.
That being said, no boxer is the top athlete in the world, and have never been the best athletes ever like Michael Vick, Usain Bolt, Wilt Chamberlain, Bo Jackson, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Deon Sanders, etc are far more athletic then Roy Jones Jr, and they would all be better at far more sports then Roy Jones Jr would be good at. He is the best boxing athlete ever, but that is not saying much. Boxing hasn't been overly about athleticism. ALi couldn't compare to Chamberlain, Leonard wouldn't have compared to Deon Sanders, Michael JOrdan wouldn't have compared to Randy Moss, Michael Vick, L. James, Tomlinson, R. Bush, etc. Or Bo Jackson either.
I mean Michael Jordan ran a 4.3 40, he had a 42 inch vertical jump.
Michael Vick 4.27 40, 40+ vertical jump, 550 pound bench press, 650 squat, etc,etc
Wilt Chamberlain: 500 pound bench press, low 10's 100 meter dash, competitive ,at the time, Olympic level high jump.
Bo Jackson: 225 pounds 4.18 40 yard dash great at football and baseball same with Deon Sanders who ran a 4.22 40
Usain Bolt: Best 100 and 200 meter runner ever, and he has only done 100 meters this year pretty much.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The problem with a lot of boxers is that they only realise they've lost what they once had when it gets PROVED (like against Tarver and Johnson). And now Roy knows he is not the man he was he probably won't get KO'd again.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting.........
now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
David Telasco i believe ;D
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ono
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
I just watched Floyd-Oscar and Leonard Benitez, and one thing I noticed was that even though both Floyd and Leonard were clearly better fighters(note that Benitez took that fight on extremely short notice and only trained liked 2 weeks for it). Anyways these fights along with Pernell Whitaker-Chavez and Meldrick Taylor-Chavez got me thinking what makes Roy JOnes so much more dominant than these guys? They all have/had blistering speed(except Whitaker) yet none of them looked to utterly inhuman in there.
Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing, he had underrated power at MW/SMW, but he really hit close to as hard as anyone in the division ever had, He wasn't quite Julian Jackson, but it was close enough. And nobody has quite had his p4p speed in the ring, but Mosley, Mayweather, Leonard, Taylor, Ali all p4p were pretty close.
Let me get to my point I was watching Leonard fight Benitez and I always noticed that when Leonard threw a combination early on it was always left jab, right hook/cross then left hook, Mayweather threw the same type of punches against Oscar all night ,and though he landed at a high % he wasn't able to land them as hard as he would want to because Oscar could predict where those punches were coming from. Meldrick Taylor use pretty good combinations, but he was there to be hit afterwards, his cross also wasn't very powerful or well thrown.
I've also been watching Roy Jones against Reggie Johnson, James Tony, Virgill Hill, Montell Griffin, Hopkins, . Against Hopkins and Griffin Roy Roy wasn't being very inventive and he couldn't get anything done offensively, but watch his other fights against Telesco in particular and you see Roy throwing the most imaginative combinations I've ever seen, he could beat these guys with just speed, but he throws from ever conceivable angle, and he could go backwards or forwards and dominate at the same level because his opponent had no idea where the next punch would come from let alone react to its speed. Roy had the best balance I've ever seen in boxing and IMO he was the smartest boxer ever. Sure he didn't do things in a perfect orthodox manner, but the way he did things he had to be gifted, but also outhink his opponents on many, many levels, and I have no seen any fighter do it like Roy did in his prime. If you need evidence of that watch his fights, pay attention to those combinations, then watch any of these other greats and you will see a remarkable difference in the quality of their offensive abilities.
"Now obviously Roy has been the best athlete to ever grace the sport of boxing" er no.
Great fighter yes but that is over playing it especially when you consider what went on with Roy from Tony - Tarver and the "ripped fuel" thing.
Was a great but not the best athlete in boxing history.
Leonard and Oscar looked human because of who they were fighting.........
now who was Roy fighting when you made that assumption? i rest my case.
David Telasco i believe ;D
geez Jones fought more bums than anyone in boxing history.
Watch Tarver/Jones II now listen to Merchant before the KO:
"Roy isnt in with the local school teacher or the part-time bouncer this opponent is live and Roy.... for the most part has avoided this kind of challenge"
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by
amat
While it's very hard to say, Roy took athleticism to an entirely different level. Really, he has to be one of the most athletic guys to step into the ring, his athleticism was his game. But back to my original point, even with their physical gifts fading, if he was one of the smartest fighters of all time he would have fought past that and still won meaningful fights like guys like Leonard, Hopkins, Toney, Holyfiels all were probably smarter fighters imo.
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
;D
Nice choice of words, I'd stake my money on that. Even when he was old he gave Jones something to think about, and he gave James Toney a lot of trouble.
When he was at his peak no one wanted anything to do with him, neither did Eubank, Hearns or Ray Leonard.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chris Nagel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Markusdarkus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taeth
The only old fighter I've seen rely purely on skill is Hopkins to still win fights, and I admitted he was smart as well. Leonard didn't use the same skill he did in his prime when he was older, but he could take a punch better then Roy, and he didn't ruin his body like Roy did. The same story goes for almost every great old fighter. Do you really think Fulmer, Turpin, Olson, etc would have stood a chance against Prime Robinson? Now look at Mundine, look at Berto look how fast and athletically gifted these guys are, but why can't they dominate anywhere close to Roy Jones Jr.'s level? Because they don't have that intelligence. HIs combinations weren't wrought purely out of the physical ability, their speed was, but how he put them together so well is all due to Roy's boxing intelligence. Look how athletic Zab Judah is, how come when he tries to stand in front of an opponent he gets hit a lot? Because Roy is so focused in the ring, so sharp, and so smart.
Roy JOnes Jr often knew what his opponent was doing before they did it. He didn't just overwhelm opponents, he set them up. Watch him against Glenn Kelly I believe its the first knock down, Roy was throwing a lot of looping punches and Kelly began to just pay attention to blocking hooks and Roy came in with a left uppercut.
Mike MaCcallum said that Roy was better than Leonard, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler combined. This wasn't some noob saying this, but IMO HOF'er who got owned by a Roy that wasn't even trying and that was his first fight at 175. People say Mike was super old, but he fought two close fights around that time with a very good James Toney. He wasn't at his best, but Mike was still a highly formidable opponent.
Also Roy won the Olympics, he was a great amateur fighter, you need technical boxing skills to fight at the amateur level, and he had it all.
McCallum P4P would make Jones piss blood.
;D
Nice choice of words, I'd stake my money on that. Even when he was old he gave Jones something to think about, and he gave James Toney a lot of trouble.
When he was at his peak no one wanted anything to do with him, neither did Eubank, Hearns or Ray Leonard.
Jones would still IMO have beaten McCallum even at his best. I like McCallum but Roy was growing into the LHW division and looked very small to Mike yet he still floored him.
As for Eubank. There was no way he would fight McCallum after what he (McCallum) did to Michael Watson. Watson and Eubank were the best 2 british MW/SMW of that IMO. To me they were inseperable in quality and McCallum would have done a similar job on Eubank.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Roy Jones always said respectful things about McCallum when he was a middleweight. In the last edition of boxing news McCallum thanked him for giving him his biggest pay day near the end of his career. He also said he did not respect Hagler for denying him a big money fight and that he sparred with Eubank's and said whilst he would have beaten him but was a strong fighter.
He also said that after beating 2 kronk fighters, after leaving them for denying him a fight with Duran, Manny would not allow Hearns in the same ring with him.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Roy Jones in his prime was a wonderful fighter.
he beat both Toney and Hopkins , and look what they went on to do , a 43 year old Hopkins took Calzaghe to a split verdict , and Hopkins couldnt lay a glove on Roy , same with Toney ,
no fighter of his size ever punched with such speed .
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
I think RJJ had everything apart from 1 thing,he didn't have no killer instinct! I dont think he had the desire to really get his opponents out of there.I think he does in the 2nd Griffen fight and IMO theres no LHW in history that would of went the distance with Roy that night! If Roy had the attitude he had in the 2nd Griffen fight for the whole of his carrer,I think we'd all be talking about him diffrently.
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Re: Roy Jones: the boxing genius
Quote:
Originally Posted by
njackets
I think RJJ had everything apart from 1 thing,he didn't have no killer instinct! I dont think he had the desire to really get his opponents out of there.I think he does in the 2nd Griffen fight and IMO theres no LHW in history that would of went the distance with Roy that night! If Roy had the attitude he had in the 2nd Griffen fight for the whole of his carrer,I think we'd all be talking about him diffrently.
He actually went on record saying that unless they did something to upset him he didn't want to hurt them too bad. I think this attitude came about after what happened to G-Man.
