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over the past year or so theres been alot of talk about kelly pavlik being a throwback fighter from the same mould as say marvin hagler in terms of toughness and resilience, tommy hearns in physicality and power. but how would pavlik have done against the past middle and light heavyweights? (ive added light heavyweight because pavlik is a big middle even by todays standards). it would be good to hear what you think on the subject.
H'ed have punchers chance against most, i.e Hearns, but Hagler, Monzon, Hopkins, RJJ etc would own him imo
He would beat Hearns imo.
McCallum, Jones, Hopkins, Eubank, Hagler the list is endless that would school him.
I like it... Pavlikfan posts something about Pavlik and the first two replies are Anti-Pavlik. Well, it's true he has his weaknesses. But seriously, this guy has some real strength. I think that we could all agree that Hearns would have a hard time with him. I think Hagler would take it the distance, and edge him. RJJ would give him a fit.
He would beat Hopkins, Winky, Eubank, and Calzaghe. I have to say he is no slouch. He has really cleaned out his division fairly quickly. All the people he beat have beaten the good prospects, so we'll just have to see him pack on the pounds and applying the pressure to other divisions.
Lets not get carried away over Pavlik. He's not in the league of a Tommy Hearns or a Marvin Hagler or any of the greats because he hasn't accomplished a percentage of what those guys did.
The only guy I'd give him a chance against would be Hearns, only because of Hearns chin, but it'd be a shootout and whoever landed the first big shot(s) would win IMO.
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Originally Posted by JonnyFolds
That is probably that daftest Pavlik loonacy love ive ever read:
He would beat Winky, Eubank and Calzaghe prime 4 prime!
May as well throw in Benn and Mcallum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its posts like this drivvel that turns purists against the likable Pavlik.
Utter tripe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pavlikfan
wait wait wait a minute there, i like pavlik just as much as any other pavlik fans but lets wait till he fight some more big names then u can put him in the ring with some great fighters from the past not right now buddy.
We don't know how he would do against the past Light Heavyweights, because he has never fought there. So lets wait until he fights Hopkins before we start debating that.
Kelly Pavlik vs Carlos Monzon: Monzon by KO in 10
Kelly Pavlik vs Marvin Hagler: Hagler by TKO in 11
Kelly Pavlik vs Chris Eubank: Tough one Eubank did often get outworked by lesser fighters, but at his best he had good workrate and a hell of a chin. I say Eubank stops him late on.
Kelly Pavlik vs Nigel Benn: Benn by KO in 3
Kelly Pavlik vs SRR: SRR by TKO in 12
Kelly Pavlik vs Bernard Hopkins: The young Hopkins had the workrate, the chin, and the boxing skills to beat Pavlik. I'd say Hopkins by TKO in 11 similar to Hagler.
Kelly Pavlik vs RJJ: RJJ by TKO in 8
Kelly Pavlik vs Julian Jackson: Jackson by KO in 2
Kelly Pavlik vs Michael Nunn: Nunn by UD
Kelly Pavlik vs Thomas Hearns: Unless we see another Iran Barkley moment, Hearns should stop Pavlik early.
Kelly Pavlik vs Mike McCallum: McCallum by UD
I like Kelly Pavlik but i find it hard for him to beat any of the names above.
How has Kelly Pavlik cleaned out the division ? he did beat the best Middleweight Jermain Taylor no arguments. But he has in no way shape or form cleaned out the division, theres still other champions like Felix Sturm, Arthur Abraham. Or how about Raul Marquez, John Duddy ? theres quite a few names he has to beat before we or he can claim he has cleaned out the division.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyFolds
It's still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to early to level him against ATG...
I like how 1 or 2 top fights into a champs reing people quickly start listing him in mythical fights.
I like Pavlik but beating Miranda & JT is not enough for me to determine how he would do vs. ATG.
We still might not have seen Pavlik at his best, maybes there's more to him.
I was thinking the same thing. Until he does more, it is impossible to determine at what level he is at. He still seems to be evolving at this point, or at least showing us different views of what he can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Due to his physical size, you can say he is a stylistic nightmare to some of them, but what made them great was their ability to overcome stylistic nightmares.
Right on...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanrwI was thinking the same thing. Until he does more, it is impossible to determine at what level he is at. He still seems to be evolving at this point, or at least showing us different views of what he can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Due to his physical size, you can say he is a stylistic nightmare to some of them, but what made them great was their ability to overcome stylistic nightmares.
Sometimes you just have shake your head.I get caught up at times as much as the next guy in some hype....but Slooow down.Pavlik is an undeniable offensive power house hitting his stride.He is honing his all around skills off that power but in all honesty.....his straight forward power behind a descent jab ,at this point ,is what carries him through his fights.The Taylor fights were pure education 101 and much needed learning.He learned what NOT to do early on and that power brought him out with a top notch KO.The 2nd saw both fighters make adjustments,Taylor boxed well and kept it close Imo until Pavliks power and improved body work took a toll in the 11th with a great left to the ribs.I thought that round won him the fight.The man is learning and frankly has to add a few attributes to that proven offense before he upend's any of the past ATG's, Hagler,Toney,Hopkins,Monzon,Hearns,etc.In his last few fights,I flash back to the way Taylor was able to nearly control the tempo along the ropes in the 2nd fight ,he literally would walk Pavlik around at times and reset.Its all part of learning and Kelly is taking mental notes.Making adjustments....It's the name of the game,ecspecially when the times get rough.The man has fought past the 9th round ONCE, One time!!One thing at a time,He has to face a faded Atg next up in Hopkins and should have a complete loose leaf notebook and a sharp pencil very much at the ready ;D.Ive warmed to this fight.
I'm not sure I would put McCallum or Eubank on that list. Hagler, Monzon, Jones, and Toney, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
I would bro Mike McCallum at his best had a granite chin, great technical skills. And was a terrific body puncher and Kelly Pavlik would be virtually, doubling over after about the 8th round or 9th round. Plus Kelly Pavlik's power wouldn't dent Mike McCallum IMO. Because remember Mike McCallum beat Julian Jackson and took his power, and Julian Jackson is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik for certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not sure I would put McCallum or Eubank on that list. Hagler, Monzon, Jones, and Toney, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Chris Eubank fought Nigel Benn who was also a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik was. And Nigel Benn couldn't even wobble or effect Chris Eubank one bit, Chris Eubank even moved up to Cruiserweight and fought a good puncher in Carl Thompson.
And never looked close to going down but he actually put Carl Thompson down, and had him wobbling quite a few times. The point im making Chris Eubank at his best had one of the best chins i've ever seen, and had enough power to wear out Kelly Pavlik late on, and stop him in a battle chins/will.
I'm not claiming Pavlik beats them, but he doesn't get "schooled."Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI would bro Mike McCallum at his best had a granite chin, great technical skills. And was a terrific body puncher and Kelly Pavlik would be virtually, doubling over after about the 8th round or 9th round. Plus Kelly Pavlik's power wouldn't dent Mike McCallum IMO. Because remember Mike McCallum beat Julian Jackson and took his power, and Julian Jackson is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik for certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not sure I would put McCallum or Eubank on that list. Hagler, Monzon, Jones, and Toney, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Chris Eubank fought Nigel Benn who was also a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik was. And Nigel Benn couldn't even wobble or effect Chris Eubank one bit, Chris Eubank even moved up to Cruiserweight and fought a good puncher in Carl Thompson.
And never looked close to going down but he actually put Carl Thompson down, and had him wobbling quite a few times. The point im making Chris Eubank at his best had one of the best chins i've ever seen, and had enough power to wear out Kelly Pavlik late on, and stop him in a battle chins/will.
McCallum sparked out china-chin Jackson in two, not exactly a true test. You also predict Jackson over Pavlik in 2, which is a silly statement. Pavlik would likely have Julian Jackson out in 2. Pavlik's reach would have the potential to give McCallum a very hard time. You have to get past that reach to get to the body. Pavlik's a much bigger man, and that would have an impact. This would be a very close fight.
Same with Eubank. This is a very close fight. Maybe Eubank comes out on top, but I wouldn't bet on him to "school" Pavlik.
To me, if a fighter gets schooled, it means he's completely outclassed...either by lack of skill, difficult matchup, or both. Examples Tito against Winky or ODLH against Mayorga. I wouldn't expect McCallum or Eubank to make Pavlik look bad. They are both close fights, whereas Hagler, Monzon, or Jones would make Kelly look stupid. Savy?
Of all the names listed so far I think Pavlik would be a game challenger but loses to all of them.
Maybe in a few years Pavlik will prove himself to be a "great" fighter and be worthy of being ranked alongside other "great" fighters.. although I doubt it.
I don't see why predicting Julian Jackson over Kelly Pavlik in 2 is a silly statement, and i don't think Julian Jackson's chin was as weak as you claim. And i don't think Kelly Pavlik's chin is that solid either, he just has good recovery skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not claiming Pavlik beats them, but he doesn't get "schooled."Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI would bro Mike McCallum at his best had a granite chin, great technical skills. And was a terrific body puncher and Kelly Pavlik would be virtually, doubling over after about the 8th round or 9th round. Plus Kelly Pavlik's power wouldn't dent Mike McCallum IMO. Because remember Mike McCallum beat Julian Jackson and took his power, and Julian Jackson is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik for certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Chris Eubank fought Nigel Benn who was also a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik was. And Nigel Benn couldn't even wobble or effect Chris Eubank one bit, Chris Eubank even moved up to Cruiserweight and fought a good puncher in Carl Thompson.
And never looked close to going down but he actually put Carl Thompson down, and had him wobbling quite a few times. The point im making Chris Eubank at his best had one of the best chins i've ever seen, and had enough power to wear out Kelly Pavlik late on, and stop him in a battle chins/will.
McCallum sparked out china-chin Jackson in two, not exactly a true test. You also predict Jackson over Pavlik in 2, which is a silly statement. Pavlik would likely have Julian Jackson out in 2. Pavlik's reach would have the potential to give McCallum a very hard time. You have to get past that reach to get to the body. Pavlik's a much bigger man, and that would have an impact. This would be a very close fight.
Same with Eubank. This is a very close fight. Maybe Eubank comes out on top, but I wouldn't bet on him to "school" Pavlik.
To me, if a fighter gets schooled, it means he's completely outclassed...either by lack of skill, difficult matchup, or both. Examples Tito against Winky or ODLH against Mayorga. I wouldn't expect McCallum or Eubank to make Pavlik look bad. They are both close fights, whereas Hagler, Monzon, or Jones would make Kelly look stupid. Savy?
Julian Jackson was a very fast starter and Kelly Pavlik has been caught early a few times, against Zuniga, Taylor. If Julian Jackson KD's Kelly Pavlik he isn't getting up simple as, Julian Jackson's power are almost out of this world.
I understand what your saying now your saying that McCallum, Eubank, are not in the same league, as RJJ, Toney, etc. In terms of schooling Pavlik, i didn't know you was implying that.
I agree with that but i don't think Carlos Monzon school's Kelly Pavlik either, i think there similar style wise and it would be a battle of the jabs. And there right hands but i think Carlos Monzon's superior chin would be the edge in the fight.
Come one, Jackson had a china chin. Look at his record. Every loss by KO, even to guys who aren't known as big punchers. Pavlik backed up and took out Edson Miranda, who is P4P not as big a puncher as Jackson, but Miranda is a much bigger guy with very good power. I would give Jackson a punchers chance against Pavlik, but I think it is far more likely that Pavlik sparks out Jackson than Jackson sparks out Pavlik. Either way, the fight ain't going the distance, but I don't see how you could make Jackson a favorite.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't see why predicting Julian Jackson over Kelly Pavlik in 2 is a silly statement, and i don't think Julian Jackson's chin was as weak as you claim. And i don't think Kelly Pavlik's chin is that solid either, he just has good recovery skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not claiming Pavlik beats them, but he doesn't get "schooled."Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
McCallum sparked out china-chin Jackson in two, not exactly a true test. You also predict Jackson over Pavlik in 2, which is a silly statement. Pavlik would likely have Julian Jackson out in 2. Pavlik's reach would have the potential to give McCallum a very hard time. You have to get past that reach to get to the body. Pavlik's a much bigger man, and that would have an impact. This would be a very close fight.
Same with Eubank. This is a very close fight. Maybe Eubank comes out on top, but I wouldn't bet on him to "school" Pavlik.
To me, if a fighter gets schooled, it means he's completely outclassed...either by lack of skill, difficult matchup, or both. Examples Tito against Winky or ODLH against Mayorga. I wouldn't expect McCallum or Eubank to make Pavlik look bad. They are both close fights, whereas Hagler, Monzon, or Jones would make Kelly look stupid. Savy?
Julian Jackson was a very fast starter and Kelly Pavlik has been caught early a few times, against Zuniga, Taylor. If Julian Jackson KD's Kelly Pavlik he isn't getting up simple as, Julian Jackson's power are almost out of this world.
I understand what your saying now your saying that McCallum, Eubank, are not in the same league, as RJJ, Toney, etc. In terms of schooling Pavlik, i didn't know you was implying that.
I agree with that but i don't think Carlos Monzon school's Kelly Pavlik either, i think there similar style wise and it would be a battle of the jabs. And there right hands but i think Carlos Monzon's superior chin would be the edge in the fight.
Julian Jackson was stopped on his feet against Mike McCallum which was a bit of a premature stoppage. Against Gerald McClellan he took big shots, and was holding his own until finally the punishment caught up with him. And he was dropped heavily by a right hand, then a left hook which almost sent him through the ropes. He got up but he got put down again but you know what ? he got up again and was stopped on his feet. And remember this was when Julian Jackson was past his prime with a detached retina, his other losses after this one don't really count.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanCome one, Jackson had a china chin. Look at his record. Every loss by KO, even to guys who aren't known as big punchers. Pavlik backed up and took out Edson Miranda, who is P4P not as big a puncher as Jackson, but Miranda is a much bigger guy with very good power. I would give Jackson a punchers chance against Pavlik, but I think it is far more likely that Pavlik sparks out Jackson than Jackson sparks out Pavlik. Either way, the fight ain't going the distance, but I don't see how you could make Jackson a favorite.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI don't see why predicting Julian Jackson over Kelly Pavlik in 2 is a silly statement, and i don't think Julian Jackson's chin was as weak as you claim. And i don't think Kelly Pavlik's chin is that solid either, he just has good recovery skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Julian Jackson was a very fast starter and Kelly Pavlik has been caught early a few times, against Zuniga, Taylor. If Julian Jackson KD's Kelly Pavlik he isn't getting up simple as, Julian Jackson's power are almost out of this world.
I understand what your saying now your saying that McCallum, Eubank, are not in the same league, as RJJ, Toney, etc. In terms of schooling Pavlik, i didn't know you was implying that.
I agree with that but i don't think Carlos Monzon school's Kelly Pavlik either, i think there similar style wise and it would be a battle of the jabs. And there right hands but i think Carlos Monzon's superior chin would be the edge in the fight.
Edison Miranda had weight problems and he looked weak IMO, im not taking anything away from Kelly Pavlik. He would of beat Edison Miranda no matter what, but Edison Miranda did look weight drained and weak to me. His punches had no fire on them, and he isn't a good fighter on the backfoot, so Kelly Pavlik could walkthrough those punches, because Edison Miranda wasn't get his bodyweight or planting his feet into the shots, he was mostly throwing arm punches.
I can't see Kelly Pavlik walking through Julian Jackson's shots no way, and he wouldn't put Julian Jackson on the backfoot either. I make Julian Jackson the favorite because Kelly Pavlik isn't 1 punch KO artist, even though he is a big puncher it normally takes an accumulation of punches. For Kelly Pavlik to take out his opponents, where as with Julian Jackson it only takes one.
And yet again i don't think, Julian Jackson had a china chin. He certainly didn't have a good/solid chin, but its not as weak as you claim. But i don't really think it would matter in this case. Kelly Pavlik gets caught early, and Julian Jackson is a fast starter. I think if Kelly Pavlik won this fight he wouldn't do it early, it would take him about 6 rounds to take out Julian Jackson, but i can't see Kelly Pavlik lasting that long to get to Julian Jackson. Hence why i have Julian Jackson as the favorite.
I understand what you mean by Jackson being a fast starter, but Pavlik has backed up everybody he has faced. Jackson could punch, but I can't see Pavlik not being able to back him up, thus making it harder for him to unload the big shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBJulian Jackson was stopped on his feet against Mike McCallum which was a bit of a premature stoppage. Against Gerald McClellan he took big shots, and was holding his own until finally the punishment caught up with him. And he was dropped heavily by a right hand, then a left hook which almost sent him through the ropes. He got up but he got put down again but you know what ? he got up again and was stopped on his feet. And remember this was when Julian Jackson was past his prime with a detached retina, his other losses after this one don't really count.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanCome one, Jackson had a china chin. Look at his record. Every loss by KO, even to guys who aren't known as big punchers. Pavlik backed up and took out Edson Miranda, who is P4P not as big a puncher as Jackson, but Miranda is a much bigger guy with very good power. I would give Jackson a punchers chance against Pavlik, but I think it is far more likely that Pavlik sparks out Jackson than Jackson sparks out Pavlik. Either way, the fight ain't going the distance, but I don't see how you could make Jackson a favorite.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Edison Miranda had weight problems and he looked weak IMO, im not taking anything away from Kelly Pavlik. He would of beat Edison Miranda no matter what, but Edison Miranda did look weight drained and weak to me. His punches had no fire on them, and he isn't a good fighter on the backfoot, so Kelly Pavlik could walkthrough those punches, because Edison Miranda wasn't get his bodyweight or planting his feet into the shots, he was mostly throwing arm punches.
I can't see Kelly Pavlik walking through Julian Jackson's shots no way, and he wouldn't put Julian Jackson on the backfoot either. I make Julian Jackson the favorite because Kelly Pavlik isn't 1 punch KO artist, even though he is a big puncher it normally takes an accumulation of punches. For Kelly Pavlik to take out his opponents, where as with Julian Jackson it only takes one.
And yet again i don't think, Julian Jackson had a china chin. He certainly didn't have a good/solid chin, but its not as weak as you claim. But i don't really think it would matter in this case. Kelly Pavlik gets caught early, and Julian Jackson is a fast starter. I think if Kelly Pavlik won this fight he wouldn't do it early, it would take him about 6 rounds to take out Julian Jackson, but i can't see Kelly Pavlik lasting that long to get to Julian Jackson. Hence why i have Julian Jackson as the favorite.
Pavlik also isn't a stupid fighter, and I think he would respect Jackson's punching power and not leave his chin out like he did against Taylor. Also, I think Pavlik does have one punch power, but it takes him time to set up his shot.
I seem to remember Benn having some effect on Eubank in the first brutal battle ICB.All in all he held up well and came back great but was dropped from a right on the side of the head in the 8th,though Eubank claimed he was off balance,also I thought Benn fazed him early in the rematch.I agree on the general statement....Eubanks had a great chin but he was definatly effected by Benn on a few occasions and stated that he felt the pain like never before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI would bro Mike McCallum at his best had a granite chin, great technical skills. And was a terrific body puncher and Kelly Pavlik would be virtually, doubling over after about the 8th round or 9th round. Plus Kelly Pavlik's power wouldn't dent Mike McCallum IMO. Because remember Mike McCallum beat Julian Jackson and took his power, and Julian Jackson is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik for certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not sure I would put McCallum or Eubank on that list. Hagler, Monzon, Jones, and Toney, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Chris Eubank fought Nigel Benn who was also a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik was. And Nigel Benn couldn't even wobble or effect Chris Eubank one bit, Chris Eubank even moved up to Cruiserweight and fought a good puncher in Carl Thompson.
And never looked close to going down but he actually put Carl Thompson down, and had him wobbling quite a few times. The point im making Chris Eubank at his best had one of the best chins i've ever seen, and had enough power to wear out Kelly Pavlik late on, and stop him in a battle chins/will.
Chris Eubank clearly slipped against Nigel Benn that wasn't a proper KD. And what i meant but having no effect, is that Chris Eubank was never wobbled or showed any signs of being hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI seem to remember Benn having some effect on Eubank in the first brutal battle ICB.All in all he held up well and came back great but was dropped from a right on the side of the head in the 8th,though Eubank claimed he was off balance,also I thought Benn fazed him early in the rematch.I agree on the general statement....Eubanks had a great chin but he was definatly effected by Benn on a few occasions and stated that he felt the pain like never before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI would bro Mike McCallum at his best had a granite chin, great technical skills. And was a terrific body puncher and Kelly Pavlik would be virtually, doubling over after about the 8th round or 9th round. Plus Kelly Pavlik's power wouldn't dent Mike McCallum IMO. Because remember Mike McCallum beat Julian Jackson and took his power, and Julian Jackson is a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik for certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Chris Eubank fought Nigel Benn who was also a bigger puncher than Kelly Pavlik was. And Nigel Benn couldn't even wobble or effect Chris Eubank one bit, Chris Eubank even moved up to Cruiserweight and fought a good puncher in Carl Thompson.
And never looked close to going down but he actually put Carl Thompson down, and had him wobbling quite a few times. The point im making Chris Eubank at his best had one of the best chins i've ever seen, and had enough power to wear out Kelly Pavlik late on, and stop him in a battle chins/will.
Of course obviously he was hurt but he never showed any signs of it, and that goes to show you much will the man had along with how hard his chin was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBChris Eubank clearly slipped against Nigel Benn that wasn't a proper KD. And what i meant but having no effect, is that Chris Eubank was never wobbled or showed any signs of being hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI seem to remember Benn having some effect on Eubank in the first brutal battle ICB.All in all he held up well and came back great but was dropped from a right on the side of the head in the 8th,though Eubank claimed he was off balance,also I thought Benn fazed him early in the rematch.I agree on the general statement....Eubanks had a great chin but he was definatly effected by Benn on a few occasions and stated that he felt the pain like never before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Of course obviously he was hurt but he never showed any signs of it, and that goes to show you much will the man had along with how hard his chin was.
Chris was hurt to the body
But man he had a:::::::::::::::
CCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNNNNNNN
One of the greatest chins of all time, Eubank got hit with BOMBS and just smiled.
I hear what your saying but if a man hits you on the side of the head and your rear right foot & comes out from under you,you go down,thats a legit KD,not pretty but legit.Clearly though...Eubank was not hurt when he rose and kept yelling slip,slip.For all of they're stated dislike,these guys showed class when the first was over.Good scrap.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBChris Eubank clearly slipped against Nigel Benn that wasn't a proper KD. And what i meant but having no effect, is that Chris Eubank was never wobbled or showed any signs of being hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI seem to remember Benn having some effect on Eubank in the first brutal battle ICB.All in all he held up well and came back great but was dropped from a right on the side of the head in the 8th,though Eubank claimed he was off balance,also I thought Benn fazed him early in the rematch.I agree on the general statement....Eubanks had a great chin but he was definatly effected by Benn on a few occasions and stated that he felt the pain like never before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Of course obviously he was hurt but he never showed any signs of it, and that goes to show you much will the man had along with how hard his chin was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not sure I would put McCallum or Eubank on that list. Hagler, Monzon, Jones, and Toney, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Are you 4 real??
You wouldnt put McCallum or Eubank on that list?
I actually think McCallum was better than Hagler and Eubank had a chin so tough Pavlik would get tired hitting him then Eubanks would just take him out.
:oQuote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanI'm not sure I would put McCallum or Eubank on that list. Hagler, Monzon, Jones, and Toney, for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Are you 4 real??
You wouldnt put McCallum or Eubank on that list?
I actually think McCallum was better than Hagler and Eubank had a chin so tough Pavlik would get tired hitting him then Eubanks would just take him out.
Can you elaborate further on that controversial statement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'NawlinsI hear what your saying but if a man hits you on the side of the head and your rear right foot & comes out from under you,you go down,thats a legit KD,not pretty but legit.Clearly though...Eubank was not hurt when he rose and kept yelling slip,slip.For all of they're stated dislike,these guys showed class when the first was over.Good scrap.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBChris Eubank clearly slipped against Nigel Benn that wasn't a proper KD. And what i meant but having no effect, is that Chris Eubank was never wobbled or showed any signs of being hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins
Of course obviously he was hurt but he never showed any signs of it, and that goes to show you much will the man had along with how hard his chin was.
Was a slip, Eubank is the most honest boxer ive ever met/heard about.
He said the only time he was ever hurt was in that fight to the body and in the second Watson fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH:oQuote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Are you 4 real??
You wouldnt put McCallum or Eubank on that list?
I actually think McCallum was better than Hagler and Eubank had a chin so tough Pavlik would get tired hitting him then Eubanks would just take him out.
Can you elaborate further on that controversial statement?
Watching the two (prime4prime) i think McCallum would have taken Hagler. Hagler and Hearns ducked Mike, both have said so.
McCallum against (Real 160lb fighters) Watson, Graham, Collins, Jackson, Toney) was truely great. He also beat a great 147lb fighter in better Fashion than Hagler did in Don Curry.
Hagler is top 3 all time fav fighters i just think mid 80s at 160 Mike would have beat him on points.
Mike McCallum one of the greatest under-rated fighters ever. The body snatcher was the man.
McCallum was unttterly robbed in the first Toney fight i will add. Its down as a draw but man it was worse than Lewis v Holyfield I.
I don't dispute that McCallum was a great fighter, but Hagler is an ATG.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Can you elaborate further on that controversial statement?
Watching the two (prime4prime) i think McCallum would have taken Hagler. Hagler and Hearns ducked Mike, both have said so.
McCallum against (Real 160lb fighters) Watson, Graham, Collins, Jackson) was truely great. He also beat a great 147lb fighter in better Fashion than Hagler did in Don Curry.
Hagler is top 3 all time fav fighters i just think mid 80s at 160 Mike would have beat him on points.
Mike McCallum one of the greatest under-rated fighters ever. The body snatcher was the man.
Regardless of weight, Hagler's best wins are head and shoulders above those of McCallum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't dispute that McCallum was a great fighter, but Hagler is an ATG.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Watching the two (prime4prime) i think McCallum would have taken Hagler. Hagler and Hearns ducked Mike, both have said so.
McCallum against (Real 160lb fighters) Watson, Graham, Collins, Jackson) was truely great. He also beat a great 147lb fighter in better Fashion than Hagler did in Don Curry.
Hagler is top 3 all time fav fighters i just think mid 80s at 160 Mike would have beat him on points.
Mike McCallum one of the greatest under-rated fighters ever. The body snatcher was the man.
Regardless of weight, Hagler's best wins are head and shoulders above those of McCallum.
McCullum is an ATG.
Are Haglers really better? MCCullum best 6 wins:
1. James Toney (prime)
2. Don Curry
3. Steve Collins
4. Michael Watson (Who schooled Been and Eubank)
5. Julian Jackson (In 2, first Jackson loss)
6. Herol Graham
McCallum was ducked by all the greats, why? because he was a great.
Listen a bigger Hagler fan you wont find, i still think McCallum (prime) was better all round and takes a UD.
I agree with you Marvin Hagler's resume isn't that much better, and infact you should put Sumbu Kalambay on Mike McCallum's list. He was a terrific fighter who beat Herol Graham x2, Iran Barkley, Doug DeWitt, Robbie Simms, Steve Collins.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't dispute that McCallum was a great fighter, but Hagler is an ATG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Regardless of weight, Hagler's best wins are head and shoulders above those of McCallum.
McCullum is an ATG.
Are Haglers really better? MCCullum best 6 wins:
1. James Toney (prime)
2. Don Curry
3. Steve Collins
4. Michael Watson (Who schooled Been and Eubank)
5. Julian Jackson (In 2 first Jabkson loss)
6. Herol Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI agree with you Marvin Hagler's resume isn't that much better, and infact you should put Sumbu Kalambay on Mike McCallum's list. He was a terrific fighter who beat Herol Graham x2, Iran Barkley, Doug DeWitt, Robbie Simms, Steve Collins.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH
McCullum is an ATG.
Are Haglers really better? MCCullum best 6 wins:
1. James Toney (prime)
2. Don Curry
3. Steve Collins
4. Michael Watson (Who schooled Been and Eubank)
5. Julian Jackson (In 2 first Jabkson loss)
6. Herol Graham
Im sick of the way McCallum gets knocked because he didnt get to beat up on 147lb`rs Hearns and Leonard.
Past it he beat up prime James Toney he beat Herol Graham, Jackson, Watson, Steve Collins, Kalambay. When you look at it a guy that was a natural LMW he is great.
McCallum mid 80s was more avoided than any fighter in History. Thats why he fought Herol Graham another fighter openly ducked by Hearns.
Fair enough, hard to argue with most of that. I feel Hagler's wins are better, but I concede that you can make a case for McCallum.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFHI don't dispute that McCallum was a great fighter, but Hagler is an ATG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusdarkus
Regardless of weight, Hagler's best wins are head and shoulders above those of McCallum.
McCullum is an ATG.
Are Haglers really better? MCCullum best 6 wins:
1. James Toney (prime)
2. Don Curry
3. Steve Collins
4. Michael Watson (Who schooled Been and Eubank)
5. Julian Jackson (In 2, first Jackson loss)
6. Herol Graham
McCallum was ducked by all the greats, why? because he was a great.
Listen a bigger Hagler fan you wont find, i still think McCallum (prime) was better all round and takes a UD.
He beats Hearns if he catches Tommy anytime after the 8th with some nbig big thunder..If he last past 4
Hagler beats him down like a mugger in 7 or 8...Marvin had a granite chin and Kelly would learn quickly the difference between the Marvelous on and Miranda or JT...
Monzon brings him to war and stops him...
At LH Jones boxes him into embaressment...At SMW he sends the Ghost to the canvas in 3....at most...
At LHW Micheal Spinks gives him a boxing lesson...
Archie Moore shows how tough an old man can be if you take a fight lightly...
Pretty much as Mick said...It is wayyy too early to even consider Pavlik in these matches
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHFair enough, hard to argue with most of that. I feel Hagler's wins are better, but I concede that you can make a case for McCallum.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusdarkusQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH
McCullum is an ATG.
Are Haglers really better? MCCullum best 6 wins:
1. James Toney (prime)
2. Don Curry
3. Steve Collins
4. Michael Watson (Who schooled Been and Eubank)
5. Julian Jackson (In 2, first Jackson loss)
6. Herol Graham
McCallum was ducked by all the greats, why? because he was a great.
Listen a bigger Hagler fan you wont find, i still think McCallum (prime) was better all round and takes a UD.
Both ATG i just feel had Mike fought Tommy and Ray he would get his dues.
Us real fans know how great Mike was in every department ;D
33yo McCallum vs Watson who in prior fight destroyed Nigel Benn:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5NiBY1tFM
Total war but Mike pulled through.
Well all i got to say is this i feel Sugar Ray Leonard was a better fighter then the body snatch was i give him a chance to knock Hearns out. But i think Sugar Ray Leonard would out box him if he was fighting prime for prime SRL takes it hands down for me feel he was a better boxer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
On what basis?
P4P its 50-50 at 154 or 160 your not saying he beats Mike?