What is with this site and Kelly Pavlik

Sure he is a good fighter, with a solid punch, and an excellent workrate, but why is he the only guy who seems to be able to get any amount of hype, and still receive no criticism by fight fans, I don't get it. He isn't fast, he doesn't have a great chin, he's relatively easy to hit. He does have decent technique, but is it just the blue collar nature of boxing that makes him so appealing to so many of you? Is it because he is the "Great white hope"? I like him now, but I still don't find him particularly exciting because everything he does is ordinary. He has no flash, he doesn't have the timing Hagler did or the personality. I don't know how he earned all this love.

I also think there are guys around his weight category (Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Mikkel Kessler, Joe Calzaghe) who will school him, and even Bernard stands a good chance of beating Pavlik on Saturday night.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Sure he is a good fighter, with a solid punch, and an excellent workrate, but why is he the only guy who seems to be able to get any amount of hype, and still receive no criticism by fight fans, I don't get it. He isn't fast, he doesn't have a great chin, he's relatively easy to hit. He does have decent technique, but is it just the blue collar nature of boxing that makes him so appealing to so many of you? Is it because he is the "Great white hope"? I like him now, but I still don't find him particularly exciting because everything he does is ordinary. He has no flash, he doesn't have the timing Hagler did or the personality. I don't know how he earned all this love.

I also think there are guys around his weight category (Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Mikkel Kessler, Joe Calzaghe) who will school him, and even Bernard stands a good chance of beating Pavlik on Saturday night.

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Because he is exciting and he is a puncher, punchers are always the most loved amongst fans. Julian Jackson, Nigel Benn, Thomas Hearns, etc. And he is also a nice guy outside the ring so he is easy to root for and like.

leave kelly alone he has done nothing to u Taeth

Because he's exciting.
Because he did something Bernard didn't.
Because he fights in one of the premire weight classes.

In short because he's a fighter and doesn't bullshit.
Hope this helps...

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Originally Posted by ICB

I also think there are guys around his weight category (Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Mikkel Kessler, Joe Calzaghe) who will school him, and even Bernard stands a good chance of beating Pavlik on Saturday night.

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Because he is exciting and he is a puncher, punchers are always the most loved amongst fans. Julian Jackson, Nigel Benn, Thomas Hearns, etc. And he is also a nice guy outside the ring so he is easy to root for and like. [/quote]

Yep, this more then anything got me liking him beyond his skills and style, which I also like. Most of his talking is done in the ring, and to me he is a humble, yet confident person. I've never really been a fanatic type fan, am sorta new to it all to be honest and frank. So I will not suggest Kelly is the best thing that has happened to boxing since...etc. etc.

I just like the guy as a person, and respect his skill.

What did he do that Bernard didn't? KO Jermain Taylor?

I don't get how this type of fighter is exciting. He comes forward, he throws al ot of punches, but he doens't ahve that one punch type power that Julian Jackson or Thomas Hearns possessed, Hearns could box extremely well, and threw beautiful combinations. Julian could end a fight with any one punch. Same with Nigel Benn. They all had this fury to them that Pavlik doesn't ahve because, he's calm, but with this style its only really exciting if he can do amazing things ala Miguel Cotto, or if he has that inner fire ala Jackson, Hearns, etc. I don't mind people loving Pavlik as a person, but don't overhype his boxing ability. All I am saying is if he was around in the 90's or Hopkins wasn't 43 now, Pavlik would have been ruined. He may still get ruined by Kessler, Dawson, etc in the future, but he isn't at the caliber a lot of you state he is. There is a difference between liking a fighter, and overhyping a fighter.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Sure he is a good fighter, with a solid punch, and an excellent workrate, but why is he the only guy who seems to be able to get any amount of hype, and still receive no criticism by fight fans, I don't get it. He isn't fast, he doesn't have a great chin, he's relatively easy to hit. He does have decent technique, but is it just the blue collar nature of boxing that makes him so appealing to so many of you? Is it because he is the "Great white hope"? I like him now, but I still don't find him particularly exciting because everything he does is ordinary. He has no flash, he doesn't have the timing Hagler did or the personality. I don't know how he earned all this love.

I also think there are guys around his weight category (Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Mikkel Kessler, Joe Calzaghe) who will school him, and even Bernard stands a good chance of beating Pavlik on Saturday night.

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Taeth, Taeth, Taeth... ::Shakes Head::

Chin... The chin isn't that great you say? Watch the Miranda fight. Watch the fact that he was attempting to showboat when he stuck his chin out and got mashed by Taylor. Taylor is not exactly Paulie M. Please, he's relatively easy to hit? You're fucking joking, right? He parries more punches then the amount of knuckle children you lay out on a daily basis. He doesn't bob and weave, he sees punches and discards them...

Pavlik beats Hopkins(on work rate), Kessler(same reason Joe beat him), Johnson(Johnson will not be able to muscle Pavlik around the ring) and Joe Calzahe cuz they have a similar work rate but Kelly's punches have steam on em... No hate on Joe as his style suits him but all the same...

Chad would be a GREAT fight though!:cool:

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Originally Posted by Taeth

What did he do that Bernard didn't? KO Jermain Taylor?

I don't get how this type of fighter is exciting. He comes forward, he throws al ot of punches, but he doens't ahve that one punch type power that Julian Jackson or Thomas Hearns possessed, Hearns could box extremely well, and threw beautiful combinations. Julian could end a fight with any one punch. Same with Nigel Benn. They all had this fury to them that Pavlik doesn't ahve because, he's calm, but with this style its only really exciting if he can do amazing things ala Miguel Cotto, or if he has that inner fire ala Jackson, Hearns, etc. I don't mind people loving Pavlik as a person, but don't overhype his boxing ability. All I am saying is if he was around in the 90's or Hopkins wasn't 43 now, Pavlik would have been ruined. He may still get ruined by Kessler, Dawson, etc in the future, but he isn't at the caliber a lot of you state he is. There is a difference between liking a fighter, and overhyping a fighter.

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just admit it u hate kelly. its a shame u hate a fighter who is great for boxing at this stage.

Taeth you accomplished what you wanted...
Just remember I helped. ;)

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Taeth you accomplished what you wanted...
Just remember I helped. ;)

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;D:cool:

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Originally Posted by Taeth

What did he do that Bernard didn't? KO Jermain Taylor?

I don't get how this type of fighter is exciting. He comes forward, he throws al ot of punches, but he doens't ahve that one punch type power that Julian Jackson or Thomas Hearns possessed, Hearns could box extremely well, and threw beautiful combinations. Julian could end a fight with any one punch. Same with Nigel Benn. They all had this fury to them that Pavlik doesn't ahve because, he's calm, but with this style its only really exciting if he can do amazing things ala Miguel Cotto, or if he has that inner fire ala Jackson, Hearns, etc. I don't mind people loving Pavlik as a person, but don't overhype his boxing ability. All I am saying is if he was around in the 90's or Hopkins wasn't 43 now, Pavlik would have been ruined. He may still get ruined by Kessler, Dawson, etc in the future, but he isn't at the caliber a lot of you state he is. There is a difference between liking a fighter, and overhyping a fighter.

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1. He is an action fighter. Conversely, this is the same reason that a lot of fans hated on PBF. At welterweight, PBF was not a fan friendly fighter. He fought going backward a lot and while his combinations and speed were dazzling, rarely was he involved in devestating battles.

2. Pavlik knocked out the middleweight champion of the world, Jermain Taylor, in a decisively violent fashion. Of the fighters you compared to Pavlik, who has accomplished a similar feat?

3. Pavlik also came up the hard way, which resonates with a lot of people especially in these hard economic times.

Calzaghe is a brilliant boxer, but Americans have only recently been introduced to him and his showcase American bout was lackluster.

To boxing afficianados, Kessler is respected, but other than his Calzaghe fight, what fights have been on the world stage? Moreover, which of those fights did he thoroughly dominate his opponent?

Bad Chad is a new commodity. I think his fan base will steadily grow.

I understand why you are underwhelmed by his boxing abilities, but don't forget Pavlik is a middleweight. The fighters you mentioned who you assume would beat Pavlik are lhw's or smw's. Besides Abraham, name one middleweight in the whole world that would beat Pavlik right now.

Also, for what he does, his one-two punching style, he does very, very well.

Check out this article in ESPN's magazine on Pavlik: ESPN - ESPN The Magazine

The guy gives it his all each time out...I agree with things you said about his chin, his style not being more then blue collar...But he also has a good personality where he nis not a braggart, he is not obnoxious, he does not try to play himself up to be more then what he is......

In short Kelly is the guy you worked with, who lives down the street etc...You want to see him do well....

David Haye has nothing more then Pavlik other then a bit of speed and he is hyped all to shit......Andre Berto has power and nothing else but he gets hype, why not Kelly

Everyone on this site loves Pavlik ;D Taeth titles :rolleyes:

Pavlik is a top fighter to watch.. so deserves plenty of fans (unfortunately a number are delusional loonies)

I don't see anything special about him though. Think he's very beatable and be surprised if he lasts too long at the top.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Everyone on this site loves Pavlik ;D Taeth titles :rolleyes:

Pavlik is a top fighter to watch.. so deserves plenty of fans (unfortunately a number are delusional loonies)

I don't see anything special about him though. Think he's very beatable and be surprised if he lasts too long at the top.

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Very fair analogy

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Sure he is a good fighter, with a solid punch, and an excellent workrate, but why is he the only guy who seems to be able to get any amount of hype, and still receive no criticism by fight fans, I don't get it. He isn't fast, he doesn't have a great chin, he's relatively easy to hit. He does have decent technique, but is it just the blue collar nature of boxing that makes him so appealing to so many of you? Is it because he is the "Great white hope"? I like him now, but I still don't find him particularly exciting because everything he does is ordinary. He has no flash, he doesn't have the timing Hagler did or the personality. I don't know how he earned all this love.

I also think there are guys around his weight category (Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson, Mikkel Kessler, Joe Calzaghe) who will school him, and even Bernard stands a good chance of beating Pavlik on Saturday night.

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What can I say but if you can't see there is great talent in the guy.There is something wrong there. ( That's all I got sorry). I knew it sooner or later someone would just shout it out "The Great White Hope" now he's ruined. Look the guy does have a good jaw he was down by Taylor who does have pop by sticking his chin in the air. He punches very hard example see Miranda and Taylor. IMO the man is the closest resemblence to Joe Louis nothing flashy just heavy steady pressure with good speed and lot's of pop and an excellent workrate.

I think a lot (not all) of the US public and Press are desperate for their own Hatton type figure and yurning for Kelly to be that man;)
Don't see anything extra special in him but he's value for money and they love him for it.
I totally agree with Calzaghes statement a few weeks bac which is why i used it.
Joe would school him even now and would have stopped him 5/6 years ago and i DO mean school him.
Do like Pavlik a lot but i even think Popkins could ruin his dream!

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

The guy gives it his all each time out...I agree with things you said about his chin, his style not being more then blue collar...But he also has a good personality where he nis not a braggart, he is not obnoxious, he does not try to play himself up to be more then what he is......

In short Kelly is the guy you worked with, who lives down the street etc...You want to see him do well....

David Haye has nothing more then Pavlik other then a bit of speed and he is hyped all to shit......Andre Berto has power and nothing else but he gets hype, why not Kelly

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Let's be honest: Kelly's white. It's been a long time since there's been a white guy this good on a national stage.

I would add that Berto has power, size and speed. The guy is going to be bigger (not necessarily taller) than 90% of the guys he fights so long as he's in the WW division.

I liked Pavlik before he got this recent hype, he has solid technique with power, and that wears people out. He throws a good variety of punches, he may be kind of slow but has good timing. Good chin and has heart. He makes for good fights, I think he may get Hopkins out of there if Hopkins trades too much.

There are always fighters that get hyped, Pavlik is one of the few Americans that has a shot of dominating multiple divisions, does he have flaws? Absolutely, but he is a class act and makes for exciting fights.
Fanboyism is a side effect of having those credentials.

for further reading on fanboyism research, David Haye, PAC, Cotto (prior to Margarito) and Hatton (prior to Mayweather)

It's been a while since Americans have had someone that could be a dominant force and had the personality to get behind (second criteria excludes Mayweather)

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Originally Posted by Killface

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

The guy gives it his all each time out...I agree with things you said about his chin, his style not being more then blue collar...But he also has a good personality where he nis not a braggart, he is not obnoxious, he does not try to play himself up to be more then what he is......

In short Kelly is the guy you worked with, who lives down the street etc...You want to see him do well....

David Haye has nothing more then Pavlik other then a bit of speed and he is hyped all to shit......Andre Berto has power and nothing else but he gets hype, why not Kelly

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Let's be honest: Kelly's white. It's been a long time since there's been a white guy this good on a national stage.

I would add that Berto has power, size and speed. The guy is going to be bigger (not necessarily taller) than 90% of the guys he fights so long as he's in the WW division.

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;)

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Originally Posted by smashup

I think a lot (not all) of the US public and Press are desperate for their own Hatton type figure and yurning for Kelly to be that man;)
Don't see anything extra special in him but he's value for money and they love him for it.
I totally agree with Calzaghes statement a few weeks bac which is why i used it.
Joe would school him even now and would have stopped him 5/6 years ago and i DO mean school him.
Do like Pavlik a lot but i even think Popkins could ruin his dream!

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You are correct - He is better value for the money than most fighters out there.

To a certain extent, I understand the comparison to Calzaghe, they are of course around the same weight class, but be fair to Pavlik here. Pavlik is 26 and has only defended the middleweight belt twice. Joe is 37. He literally has ten years on Pavlik in experience. He has seen every single mold of opponent - from boxers to punchers to brawlers. Pavlik is still fine-tuning his craft. You should give him his due. He has accomplished a fair amount by age 26. If he even gets a fight with Calzaghe at this stage in his career is evidence of his potential. Joe stayed at super middlweight and mostly fought British and European fighters during his reign. Will Pavlik's career be more accomplished than Joe's?

Pavlik gives Americans someone to really route for. And to be honest, the fact that he's white also gives him some extra fan base. Countdown to Pavlik/Hopkins discussed this concept and I agree with them 100%.

I like Pavlik because of his workrate, his determination, his heart, his humbleness, and the fact that he's knocking everyone out. He's willing to fight anyone and just goes out there and does his job.

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Originally Posted by smashup

I think a lot (not all) of the US public and Press are desperate for their own Hatton type figure and yurning for Kelly to be that man;)
Don't see anything extra special in him but he's value for money and they love him for it.
I totally agree with Calzaghes statement a few weeks bac which is why i used it.
Joe would school him even now and would have stopped him 5/6 years ago and i DO mean school him.
Do like Pavlik a lot but i even think Popkins could ruin his dream!

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who cares;D

I am not denying he is great for the sport, or that he is a good fighter, but what I am saying is that he isn't a great fighter, straight up. He is just lucky he came in at the right time, in the right place. I think its already been shown that Miranda isn't a grade A fighter by what both Pavlik and Abraham did to him. Miranda threw wide, amazingly slow punches, that were hard, but he had difficulties landing them, He reminded me of a Jeff Lacy without any handspeed. Now back to Pavlik, he was hurt badly, and came back and knocked out a burnt out Jermain Taylor, in the second fight he won because of his workrate, but he didn't show that he was better than Jermain Taylor in anything but his power of will. Also whoever thinks Pavlik has a good chin is stupid, Taylor almost knocked him out cold after not being able to KO Cory Spinks. I think Taylor has a lot of force on his punches, but no snap. Miranda did hurt Pavlik in their fight, and because of Miranda's horrible punching technique, and the fact he was moving backwards the whole fight took a lot of steam of his punches.

I am going to say why I think the fighters I did will beat Pavlik

Glen Johnson: He will walk through anything Pavlik throws, and he has the power to hurt Pavlik, he has the accuracy to hit Pavlik.

Joe Calzaghe: too quick, he would be too fast and just as busy as Pavlik on the outside, he would eat Pavlik alive on the inside, and he has enough power to stun Pavlik just like he did to Kesserl.

Mikkel Kessler: hits harder then Taylor, he would use that power jab to control Pavliks workrate, and he would eventually KO Pavlik with either a left hook or right cross counter.

Chad Dawson: way too fast, Pavlik would not be able to deal with his speed.

ONCE AGAIN, being popular doesn't make you better, and thats a mistake way too many people make on here.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I am not denying he is great for the sport, or that he is a good fighter, but what I am saying is that he isn't a great fighter, straight up.

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It always bothers me when people pick apart a fighter while he's still putting in the work. I'm a Pavlik fan, but I don't claim any particular bias toward his skills as a fighter. I pretty much agree with a lot of what you say about his flaws - and he does have a lot of them - but is that what defines greatness? A lack of flaws in a fighter's boxing technique?

Pavlik makes the most of the abilities he has. He doesn't presume too much (any more than a fighter should) and he seems ready to fight whoever is put in front of him. What else do you need from a fighter? Why criticize? So far he's done a fine job - better than you or I could do. Why bother with ranking his "greatness" or lack thereof? Why not just appreciate the fact that he gets in the ring, entertains us, and does his job very well?

That's my idea of a great fighter.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I am not denying he is great for the sport, or that he is a good fighter, but what I am saying is that he isn't a great fighter, straight up. He is just lucky he came in at the right time, in the right place. I think its already been shown that Miranda isn't a grade A fighter by what both Pavlik and Abraham did to him. Miranda threw wide, amazingly slow punches, that were hard, but he had difficulties landing them, He reminded me of a Jeff Lacy without any handspeed. Now back to Pavlik, he was hurt badly, and came back and knocked out a burnt out Jermain Taylor, in the second fight he won because of his workrate, but he didn't show that he was better than Jermain Taylor in anything but his power of will. Also whoever thinks Pavlik has a good chin is stupid, Taylor almost knocked him out cold after not being able to KO Cory Spinks. I think Taylor has a lot of force on his punches, but no snap. Miranda did hurt Pavlik in their fight, and because of Miranda's horrible punching technique, and the fact he was moving backwards the whole fight took a lot of steam of his punches.

I am going to say why I think the fighters I did will beat Pavlik

Glen Johnson: He will walk through anything Pavlik throws, and he has the power to hurt Pavlik, he has the accuracy to hit Pavlik.

Joe Calzaghe: too quick, he would be too fast and just as busy as Pavlik on the outside, he would eat Pavlik alive on the inside, and he has enough power to stun Pavlik just like he did to Kesserl.

Mikkel Kessler: hits harder then Taylor, he would use that power jab to control Pavliks workrate, and he would eventually KO Pavlik with either a left hook or right cross counter.

Chad Dawson: way too fast, Pavlik would not be able to deal with his speed.

ONCE AGAIN, being popular doesn't make you better, and thats a mistake way too many people make on here.

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im bout tired of u hatin on kelly. ima put it like this if u hate kelly u hate sucess loser. kelly has done it on his own with help only frm his family. and has never ducked no one. GET BENT.:mad: kelly deserves the fame just as much as anybody else that gets in the ring.

Kelly is a class act and TRULY humble. I'm a Hatton fan and to me Ricky overdoes this humble stuff all the time which gets tiring. But Kelly is 100% grounded and as humble as you could possibly be.

I can't see how anyone could not like the guy. Exiting to watch, humble as fuck, never talks shit, family man, fights whoever is put in front of him and gives his all, lots of heart etc..

You can't help but be a fan and want him to win.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I am not denying he is great for the sport, or that he is a good fighter, but what I am saying is that he isn't a great fighter, straight up. He is just lucky he came in at the right time, in the right place. I think its already been shown that Miranda isn't a grade A fighter by what both Pavlik and Abraham did to him. Miranda threw wide, amazingly slow punches, that were hard, but he had difficulties landing them, He reminded me of a Jeff Lacy without any handspeed. Now back to Pavlik, he was hurt badly, and came back and knocked out a burnt out Jermain Taylor, in the second fight he won because of his workrate, but he didn't show that he was better than Jermain Taylor in anything but his power of will. Also whoever thinks Pavlik has a good chin is stupid, Taylor almost knocked him out cold after not being able to KO Cory Spinks. I think Taylor has a lot of force on his punches, but no snap. Miranda did hurt Pavlik in their fight, and because of Miranda's horrible punching technique, and the fact he was moving backwards the whole fight took a lot of steam of his punches.

I am going to say why I think the fighters I did will beat Pavlik

Glen Johnson: He will walk through anything Pavlik throws, and he has the power to hurt Pavlik, he has the accuracy to hit Pavlik.

Joe Calzaghe: too quick, he would be too fast and just as busy as Pavlik on the outside, he would eat Pavlik alive on the inside, and he has enough power to stun Pavlik just like he did to Kesserl.

Mikkel Kessler: hits harder then Taylor, he would use that power jab to control Pavliks workrate, and he would eventually KO Pavlik with either a left hook or right cross counter.

Chad Dawson: way too fast, Pavlik would not be able to deal with his speed.

ONCE AGAIN, being popular doesn't make you better, and thats a mistake way too many people make on here.

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I have to pull you up on that one. Taylor hits hard, not the hardest but he hits hard and he hits fast. Pavlik took fucking loads of flush shots when he went down, that does not determine a weak chin but the total opposite. He got up and got a KO for christ sake!!

He is following a man In Hopkins who had reigned for many years and who had a few ho-hum defences mixed among his total.....he is also the exact polar opposite as far as excitment,mentality and style in the ring from Hopkins.Sometimes change gets people hyped up and they paying attention.It's well deserved for Pavlik....he is honest with his style,face first throwing bombs and trying to produce KO's.Also seems to let his Hands do all of the shite talking and not run on about himself.Humble,refreshing!

Taeth every single fighter you listed is in divisions above Pavlik and it's not like the lower weights where 3 lbs makes makes a difference from Gamboa to Pacquiao, Chad Dawson is 15 lbs bigger then Pavlik weighing in and much bigger then that in the ring. That's nowhere near a fair comparision. Calzaghe maybe but the reason people love him is because he is far and away the best middleweight in the world. I agree Hopkins will give him problems but he does have a good chin, not a great but a good enough chin that will allow him to keep going forward against every middleweight out there. Also, he may not have 1 punch power but he does have clubbing power and his shots just wear you down and they always come in combination and they aren't just 1,2s anymore either he has a pretty nice arsenal of punches to select from. Plus he's not hard to get behind because he is from Youngstown, Ohio and is a throwback to so many of the middleweights of yesteryear. That's why people like him.

This is insane. Do you know why Pavlik might have trouble with the fighter's named by Taeth because they are light heavyweight's.Did we forget something Kelly is a middleweight he is fighting at 170 not 175 against Taylor it was 166. I believe Kelly will come in the same weight 166 for the Hopkins fight. Not only that but for a middleweight he is very wide you will see how much bigger Pavlik is than B-Hop. IMO also with all those names mentioned he could knock everyone one of them out. Johnson not indestructible can be beaten and easily outboxed. Calzaghe went down from a perfectly timed right hand not much pop behind it. Kessler could beat him but he has only 2 thing's in the bag that is a crisp jab and hard right hand not seasoned enough IMO. Last I am not sold on Dawson having a good jaw he has been down against Johnson not known for his power but workrate,and by Adamek in a fight he was winning convincingly and got caught by a decent shot.

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

Pavlik does what he does very well. Beats guys up when they are infront of him, cornered, or on the ropes. The angles he throws punches from are limited though and so are the variety of punches he throws.

Movement is his kryptonite, I don't see him beating Calzaghe for that reason alone.
and to follow up on something a previous poster said - I think Spinks was robbed against JT.
I thought he made JT look like a complete idiot.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

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nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

Pavlik will always be a very good fighter, but even looking back at the legendary Hagler, if he didn't have his chin he would have a been a very good fighter, but he would have been knocked out by the first right hand Hearns landed on him, and we wouldn't consider him half as good as we do now. Sure he had a solid defense, good power, accuracy, timing, etc, but that chin seperated him from all the other fighter with those other qualities. Hell it even seperates Margarito from far better technical fighters than him because he doens't have to worry about whats hitting him. What I am saying is that it will take a special fighter to beat Pavlik, but Dawson, Kessler are clearly special fighters or will be in Chad's case. I am not even comparing these two because I don't think Chad is better then Pavlik at this moment, but speed, like a good chin, overcomes many obstacles.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Taeth

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

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nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

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Comparing Cotto being KO'd by Tony and Pavlik not getting KO'd by Miranda makes a good arguement for nothing......Miranda did not land on Pavlik like Tony did on Cotto....Taylor put Kelly down for an 8 count and Taylor does not hit as hard as Miranda......

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Pavlik will always be a very good fighter, but even looking back at the legendary Hagler, if he didn't have his chin he would have a been a very good fighter, but he would have been knocked out by the first right hand Hearns landed on him, and we wouldn't consider him half as good as we do now. Sure he had a solid defense, good power, accuracy, timing, etc, but that chin seperated him from all the other fighter with those other qualities. Hell it even seperates Margarito from far better technical fighters than him because he doens't have to worry about whats hitting him. What I am saying is that it will take a special fighter to beat Pavlik, but Dawson, Kessler are clearly special fighters or will be in Chad's case. I am not even comparing these two because I don't think Chad is better then Pavlik at this moment, but speed, like a good chin, overcomes many obstacles.

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kessler cant beat kelly at the moment. especially after the bhop fight kelly will have way more ring experience than kessler.

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Taeth

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

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nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

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He did get hurt by Miranda, and who besides Miranda has Pavlik foughten that hits hard or landed a hart punch on him? Judah hits harder then Taylor p4p, As does Torres. Mosley never EVER hurt Cotto, where the hell did you get that from? Is it when Cotto slipped? Maybe you should watch the entire fight because Mosley I believe that exact same round slips in the EXACT same spot. Don't let HBO blowing their load throw you off. Cotto was severly weight drained when he fought at 140 thats his excuse, he looked like a skeleton at the weighins. Hell even Malignaggi got more respect with his punches then Mosley or Quintana did when COtto moved up to WW. Pavlik isn't badly weight drained to make middleweight.

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Taeth

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

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nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

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Comparing Cotto being KO'd by Tony and Pavlik not getting KO'd by Miranda makes a good arguement for nothing......Miranda did not land on Pavlik like Tony did on Cotto....Taylor put Kelly down for an 8 count and Taylor does not hit as hard as Miranda......

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i know. but taeth was tryna say that cotto and pavliks chin where the same. but how? i must know

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by kingfrnk

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Originally Posted by Taeth

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

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nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

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He did get hurt by Miranda, and who besides Miranda has Pavlik foughten that hits hard or landed a hart punch on him? Judah hits harder then Taylor p4p, As does Torres. Mosley never EVER hurt Cotto, where the hell did you get that from? Is it when Cotto slipped? Maybe you should watch the entire fight because Mosley I believe that exact same round slips in the EXACT same spot. Don't let HBO blowing their load throw you off. Cotto was severly weight drained when he fought at 140 thats his excuse, he looked like a skeleton at the weighins. Hell even Malignaggi got more respect with his punches then Mosley or Quintana did when COtto moved up to WW. Pavlik isn't badly weight drained to make middleweight.

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why do u keep sayin who has kelly fought? he is still young stupid, and just barley started gettin these fights with bhop and JT. damn let the dude rest for a minute. and from wat i saw mosleey did hurt cotto a little, you tryna make it sound like i said he was fina get kod.