What is with this site and Kelly Pavlik

[Taeth]

I am not denying he is great for the sport, or that he is a good fighter, but what I am saying is that he isn't a great fighter, straight up. He is just lucky he came in at the right time, in the right place. I think its already been shown that Miranda isn't a grade A fighter by what both Pavlik and Abraham did to him. Miranda threw wide, amazingly slow punches, that were hard, but he had difficulties landing them, He reminded me of a Jeff Lacy without any handspeed. Now back to Pavlik, he was hurt badly, and came back and knocked out a burnt out Jermain Taylor, in the second fight he won because of his workrate, but he didn't show that he was better than Jermain Taylor in anything but his power of will. Also whoever thinks Pavlik has a good chin is stupid, Taylor almost knocked him out cold after not being able to KO Cory Spinks. I think Taylor has a lot of force on his punches, but no snap. Miranda did hurt Pavlik in their fight, and because of Miranda's horrible punching technique, and the fact he was moving backwards the whole fight took a lot of steam of his punches.

I am going to say why I think the fighters I did will beat Pavlik

Glen Johnson: He will walk through anything Pavlik throws, and he has the power to hurt Pavlik, he has the accuracy to hit Pavlik.

Joe Calzaghe: too quick, he would be too fast and just as busy as Pavlik on the outside, he would eat Pavlik alive on the inside, and he has enough power to stun Pavlik just like he did to Kesserl.

Mikkel Kessler: hits harder then Taylor, he would use that power jab to control Pavliks workrate, and he would eventually KO Pavlik with either a left hook or right cross counter.

Chad Dawson: way too fast, Pavlik would not be able to deal with his speed.

ONCE AGAIN, being popular doesn't make you better, and thats a mistake way too many people make on here.

[bcollins]

I am not denying he is great for the sport, or that he is a good fighter, but what I am saying is that he isn't a great fighter, straight up.

It always bothers me when people pick apart a fighter while he's still putting in the work. I'm a Pavlik fan, but I don't claim any particular bias toward his skills as a fighter. I pretty much agree with a lot of what you say about his flaws - and he does have a lot of them - but is that what defines greatness? A lack of flaws in a fighter's boxing technique?

Pavlik makes the most of the abilities he has. He doesn't presume too much (any more than a fighter should) and he seems ready to fight whoever is put in front of him. What else do you need from a fighter? Why criticize? So far he's done a fine job - better than you or I could do. Why bother with ranking his "greatness" or lack thereof? Why not just appreciate the fact that he gets in the ring, entertains us, and does his job very well?

That's my idea of a great fighter.

[Kel]

Kelly is a class act and TRULY humble. I'm a Hatton fan and to me Ricky overdoes this humble stuff all the time which gets tiring. But Kelly is 100% grounded and as humble as you could possibly be.

I can't see how anyone could not like the guy. Exiting to watch, humble as fuck, never talks shit, family man, fights whoever is put in front of him and gives his all, lots of heart etc..

You can't help but be a fan and want him to win.

[Spicoli]

He is following a man In Hopkins who had reigned for many years and who had a few ho-hum defences mixed among his total.....he is also the exact polar opposite as far as excitment,mentality and style in the ring from Hopkins.Sometimes change gets people hyped up and they paying attention.It's well deserved for Pavlik....he is honest with his style,face first throwing bombs and trying to produce KO's.Also seems to let his Hands do all of the shite talking and not run on about himself.Humble,refreshing!

[amat]

Taeth every single fighter you listed is in divisions above Pavlik and it's not like the lower weights where 3 lbs makes makes a difference from Gamboa to Pacquiao, Chad Dawson is 15 lbs bigger then Pavlik weighing in and much bigger then that in the ring. That's nowhere near a fair comparision. Calzaghe maybe but the reason people love him is because he is far and away the best middleweight in the world. I agree Hopkins will give him problems but he does have a good chin, not a great but a good enough chin that will allow him to keep going forward against every middleweight out there. Also, he may not have 1 punch power but he does have clubbing power and his shots just wear you down and they always come in combination and they aren't just 1,2s anymore either he has a pretty nice arsenal of punches to select from. Plus he's not hard to get behind because he is from Youngstown, Ohio and is a throwback to so many of the middleweights of yesteryear. That's why people like him.

[brucelee]

I like Pavlik coz he's willing to exchange shots despite the fact that he knows his chin is not so good. It makes it more exciting. I doubt though that he will win over Bernard. I'm putting a bet in another thread. Hope there are takers.

[The Fightfan]

This is insane. Do you know why Pavlik might have trouble with the fighter's named by Taeth because they are light heavyweight's.Did we forget something Kelly is a middleweight he is fighting at 170 not 175 against Taylor it was 166. I believe Kelly will come in the same weight 166 for the Hopkins fight. Not only that but for a middleweight he is very wide you will see how much bigger Pavlik is than B-Hop. IMO also with all those names mentioned he could knock everyone one of them out. Johnson not indestructible can be beaten and easily outboxed. Calzaghe went down from a perfectly timed right hand not much pop behind it. Kessler could beat him but he has only 2 thing's in the bag that is a crisp jab and hard right hand not seasoned enough IMO. Last I am not sold on Dawson having a good jaw he has been down against Johnson not known for his power but workrate,and by Adamek in a fight he was winning convincingly and got caught by a decent shot.

[Taeth]

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

[intoccabile]

Pavlik does what he does very well. Beats guys up when they are infront of him, cornered, or on the ropes. The angles he throws punches from are limited though and so are the variety of punches he throws.

Movement is his kryptonite, I don't see him beating Calzaghe for that reason alone.
and to follow up on something a previous poster said - I think Spinks was robbed against JT.
I thought he made JT look like a complete idiot.

[Taeth]

Pavlik will always be a very good fighter, but even looking back at the legendary Hagler, if he didn't have his chin he would have a been a very good fighter, but he would have been knocked out by the first right hand Hearns landed on him, and we wouldn't consider him half as good as we do now. Sure he had a solid defense, good power, accuracy, timing, etc, but that chin seperated him from all the other fighter with those other qualities. Hell it even seperates Margarito from far better technical fighters than him because he doens't have to worry about whats hitting him. What I am saying is that it will take a special fighter to beat Pavlik, but Dawson, Kessler are clearly special fighters or will be in Chad's case. I am not even comparing these two because I don't think Chad is better then Pavlik at this moment, but speed, like a good chin, overcomes many obstacles.

[kingfrnk]

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

[DaxxKahn]

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

Comparing Cotto being KO'd by Tony and Pavlik not getting KO'd by Miranda makes a good arguement for nothing......Miranda did not land on Pavlik like Tony did on Cotto....Taylor put Kelly down for an 8 count and Taylor does not hit as hard as Miranda......

[Taeth]

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

nobody is indestructable anybody can be beat by certain fighters. and kelly doesnt have a chin like cotto. kelly has great recovery. cotto has been hurt by zab,torres,corley,mosley, and most recently kod by tony. and i dont recall pavlik being hurt by miranda who punches hard as hell.

He did get hurt by Miranda, and who besides Miranda has Pavlik foughten that hits hard or landed a hart punch on him? Judah hits harder then Taylor p4p, As does Torres. Mosley never EVER hurt Cotto, where the hell did you get that from? Is it when Cotto slipped? Maybe you should watch the entire fight because Mosley I believe that exact same round slips in the EXACT same spot. Don't let HBO blowing their load throw you off. Cotto was severly weight drained when he fought at 140 thats his excuse, he looked like a skeleton at the weighins. Hell even Malignaggi got more respect with his punches then Mosley or Quintana did when COtto moved up to WW. Pavlik isn't badly weight drained to make middleweight.

[Rantcatrat]

How the fuck can you say Glen Johnson isn't indestructible? He has taken punches from the heaviest punchers in the Light heavyweight division, and he has never gone down once. The only time he got stoped was in the middleweight fight against Hopkins, and I think you should watch that fight because maybe you don't remember the drumbing he took from Bernard who hit him with way more punches than PAvlik would.

Your an idiot for saying Kessler is a two trick pony, He has a great jab, he has a great cross, he biggest weapon is his left hook, and his right uppercut is deadly as well. Not to mention he is a terrific combination puncher, counter puncher, and general ring tactician, he is easily one of the top 10 p4p fighters, and he would destroy Pavlik.

Also did Calzaghe look wobbly at all after the shot he took from Hopkins? Did he get dropped by any of the huge right hands Kessler dropped on him? Pavlik doesn't one punch top end opponents, he isn't Thomas Hearns, and Calzaghe wouldn't let Pavlik physically bully him around. He didn't let a very strong Lacy, or a very strong Kessler bully him around either. Pavlik can't just walk through punches all night, he is more intelligent than that, and Calzaghe won't let Pavlik get off with his punches, it was Taylor's inactivity that allowed Pavlik to win that fight.

This answers two people. Chad Dawson could make 160 if he needed, he is very skiny, and wasn't always light heavyweight, also Pavlik is not a natural middleweight, why do you think he is a foot taller then half his opponents? Guys like him are the Paul Williams' of the middleweight division. Pavlik could easily be natural lightheavy weight, and we will see him up there before long. Whereas a guy like Hopkins fought at middleweight until he was 40. Pavlik will be the bigger man against Hopkins when they fight, and he is almost as big as Dawson naturally. I mean Taylor walks around bigger then most lightheavyweights and he looked smaller then Pavlik.

Also I never said Dawson was that great either, I don't think he would have beaten Glen Johnson five years ago, hell I think Glen had a draw with him, if Johnson didn't win that fight. I also think Tarver might have beaten Dawson 5 years ago. I think that Roy JOnes in his prime would have KO'ed current Dawson in about 3 rounds. I think Dawson has the potential to be very great.

What I ahve been saying is that Pavlik is a fine technical fighter in the style he fights, He does get hit, but so do most fighters coming forward, but he doesn't quite have the Ike Quartey, Winky WRight air tight defense. He throws all the punches well, he throws good combinations. But his flaws are his physical body, Sure he is very tall and strong, but he has ordinary speed, his chin is like Cotto's, its ok, but it isn't where it needs to be if he is going to get hit a lot in a fight by even a decent puncher. I also get the sense that if he got into a brutal fight his body wouldn't be able to take it just like Cotto and Thomas Hearns against Hagler, I see him fighting certain guys like Glen Johnson and them breaking him down. I am just saying don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky WRight deserved a decision against Taylor, even arguably Cory Spinks deserved a decision against Taylor if you are going by effective punching and not who has more power, the middleweight? Or the featherfisted welterweight?

Glen Johnson is a tough fight for anybody, and especially for taller, lankier fighters. With his relatively thin frame, Pavilk would have trouble with Glen Johnson.

Your argument that Pavlik beat Taylor because Taylor's inactivity can be used with equal force as to how Calzaghe beat Hopkins. Hopkins was winning the first half of the fight, it was only toward the end that Calzaghe began pulling ahead. Moreover, his win was controversial. Personally, I think Bhop was tailor-made for Calzaghe because Calzaghe wins by throwing hundreds of punches and Bhop doesn't have the energy to combat highly energetic fighters anymore.

As you can tell, I see some of your points, but you should concede a little too. You warn, "don't overhype him because he beat Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins deserved a win against Taylor, Winky Wright deserved a decision against Taylor." Bhop and Wright are hall-of-famers. If they both lost to Taylor, albeit controversially, and Pavlik beat Taylor, convincingly, doesn't that speak well for Pavlik?

Pavlik definitely has flaws. He only has average, or slightly above average, handspeed. He doesn't have a huge arsenal of punches like other boxers; his defense is leaky. But, what he does, he does very well. Pavlik's continued success depends in part, I think, on good matchups, which is why I assert that Pavlik should dominate at middleweight for as long as possible and then cautiously move up to super middleweight. For example, I think Abraham is a good matchup but I don't think the same for Calzaghe or Chad Dawson. I'm not saying Pavlik wouldn't beat Calzaghe or Hopkins, but Calzaghe throws a lot of punches and may win a decision based on that alone. Dawson for much the same reasons and additionally because he is the bigger man. I think Kessler is a question mark.

Taeth: does a win over Hopkins legitimize Pavlik for you? How do you think he'll fare against other elite middleweights?

[SweetPea]

I like Pavlik, but if I have to watch one more HBO/ESPN segment about how he's just an ordinary guy fighting for the people of Youngstown, I may throw my TV out the window.

Enough already, we get it.