I don't think OScar has delt with Speed like Pacquiao's before.

I don't think this will necessarily change the outcome of the fight, but I was watching Kessler-Mundine, and thinking to myself Mundine is significantly faster than Calzaghe, and he punches more solidly, why can Kessler deal with it, but the answer is much easier to block one punch than a combination. Now the two fastest guys Oscar fought were Mayweather and Mosley, but they at least at welterweight aren't known as combination punchers, and as sneaky as Mayweather is, you are only reacting to one punch when he throws something, and its usually at the same speed(a huge problem Berto also has even when he throws combinations). With Pacquiao he will throw a semi-lazy jab multiple times then whip a left cross as fast as anyone throws anything. Not only that but when Pacquiao is at his best he is usually throwing the right hook or the right jab behind it. I think his speed along with his combination punching(straight punches, not looping like Mosley which made him easier to outbox in ODLH-Mosley 2) will give Oscar some troubles. Not to mention I think that he won't hurt Oscar, but he will get his respect with a left cross which Oscar based on his hand position, and lack of upper body movement should be open to. I think you need incredible awareness like JMM to stop Pacquiao from throwing that cross, and thats by moving in right before Pacquiao wants to throw it(he likes a lot of space to throw the cross which is why he throws so many jabs to set it up), and either punching Pacquiao or moving back out before he can adapt.

He fought PBF didn't he?

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think this will necessarily change the outcome of the fight, but I was watching Kessler-Mundine, and thinking to myself Mundine is significantly faster than Calzaghe, and he punches more solidly, why can Kessler deal with it, but the answer is much easier to block one punch than a combination. Now the two fastest guys Oscar fought were Mayweather and Mosley, but they at least at welterweight aren't known as combination punchers, and as sneaky as Mayweather is, you are only reacting to one punch when he throws something, and its usually at the same speed(a huge problem Berto also has even when he throws combinations). With Pacquiao he will throw a semi-lazy jab multiple times then whip a left cross as fast as anyone throws anything. Not only that but when Pacquiao is at his best he is usually throwing the right hook or the right jab behind it. I think his speed along with his combination punching(straight punches, not looping like Mosley which made him easier to outbox in ODLH-Mosley 2) will give Oscar some troubles. Not to mention I think that he won't hurt Oscar, but he will get his respect with a left cross which Oscar based on his hand position, and lack of upper body movement should be open to. I think you need incredible awareness like JMM to stop Pacquiao from throwing that cross, and thats by moving in right before Pacquiao wants to throw it(he likes a lot of space to throw the cross which is why he throws so many jabs to set it up), and either punching Pacquiao or moving back out before he can adapt.

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Yes, Oscar hasn't meet anyone with a combination like PAcquaio's.

Pacquiao's handspeed,it won't matter much coz Oscar will walk through them.Yes he got busted up by Forbes but never expect that kind of Oscar to show up..I think what Roach means when he said 'speeds will make us win' he means footspeed.If pac can get past the jab and goes inside then throws body punches then step out for 12 rounds he has a chance.If its a KO,its Oscar.If it goes the distance,it still could be Oscar or Pac.

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

He fought PBF didn't he?

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Its a different kind of speed, PBF is countering you, he generally throws at one speed, Pacquiao throws at different speeds and he throws combinations of straight punches which is rare, and he has great timing coming forward, and I definitely think Pacquiao's footspeed will play a huge role if he can use it properly, but he obviously isn't a defensive fighter, and Oscar is pretty quick himself, but I think Oscar will be wide open for Pacquiao's shots.

The one thing I do notice is that Oscar doesn't counter too often anymore, when PBF was throwing punches Oscar was too focused on blocking them, same with against Forbes. If Pacquiao can't get a high work rate going (albeit very hard against the size, skill, and speed of Oscar) I really wonder if Oscar will be able to respond.

One thing I worry about Pacquiao is that Roach is set on Oscar showing up with no right cross, but Oscar used one effectively against Pernell Whitaker, and landed it as much as anything against him. Oscar has a much better right hand than he used, and if the Pacquiao corner is banking on Oscar being a one handed fighter then they are fighting a lost cause.

good analysis taeth. i think oscar will be befuddled by pac's speed and combination in the opening rounds but will adjust somewhere in the 3rd to midrounds, and if pac somehow survives de la hoya's onslaught he will slowly start to pick oscar apart going into the homestretch.

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think this will necessarily change the outcome of the fight, but I was watching Kessler-Mundine, and thinking to myself Mundine is significantly faster than Calzaghe, and he punches more solidly, why can Kessler deal with it, but the answer is much easier to block one punch than a combination. Now the two fastest guys Oscar fought were Mayweather and Mosley, but they at least at welterweight aren't known as combination punchers, and as sneaky as Mayweather is, you are only reacting to one punch when he throws something, and its usually at the same speed(a huge problem Berto also has even when he throws combinations). With Pacquiao he will throw a semi-lazy jab multiple times then whip a left cross as fast as anyone throws anything. Not only that but when Pacquiao is at his best he is usually throwing the right hook or the right jab behind it. I think his speed along with his combination punching(straight punches, not looping like Mosley which made him easier to outbox in ODLH-Mosley 2) will give Oscar some troubles. Not to mention I think that he won't hurt Oscar, but he will get his respect with a left cross which Oscar based on his hand position, and lack of upper body movement should be open to. I think you need incredible awareness like JMM to stop Pacquiao from throwing that cross, and thats by moving in right before Pacquiao wants to throw it(he likes a lot of space to throw the cross which is why he throws so many jabs to set it up), and either punching Pacquiao or moving back out before he can adapt.

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Yes, Oscar hasn't meet anyone with a combination like PAcquaio's.

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Shane Mosley?

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think this will necessarily change the outcome of the fight, but I was watching Kessler-Mundine, and thinking to myself Mundine is significantly faster than Calzaghe, and he punches more solidly, why can Kessler deal with it, but the answer is much easier to block one punch than a combination. Now the two fastest guys Oscar fought were Mayweather and Mosley, but they at least at welterweight aren't known as combination punchers, and as sneaky as Mayweather is, you are only reacting to one punch when he throws something, and its usually at the same speed(a huge problem Berto also has even when he throws combinations). With Pacquiao he will throw a semi-lazy jab multiple times then whip a left cross as fast as anyone throws anything. Not only that but when Pacquiao is at his best he is usually throwing the right hook or the right jab behind it. I think his speed along with his combination punching(straight punches, not looping like Mosley which made him easier to outbox in ODLH-Mosley 2) will give Oscar some troubles. Not to mention I think that he won't hurt Oscar, but he will get his respect with a left cross which Oscar based on his hand position, and lack of upper body movement should be open to. I think you need incredible awareness like JMM to stop Pacquiao from throwing that cross, and thats by moving in right before Pacquiao wants to throw it(he likes a lot of space to throw the cross which is why he throws so many jabs to set it up), and either punching Pacquiao or moving back out before he can adapt.

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Yes, Oscar hasn't meet anyone with a combination like PAcquaio's.

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Shane Mosley?

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damn u beat me to it. but Pacman (i think) throws alot more punches.

i thought this has something to do with de la hoya's deltoids. lol

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think this will necessarily change the outcome of the fight, but I was watching Kessler-Mundine, and thinking to myself Mundine is significantly faster than Calzaghe, and he punches more solidly, why can Kessler deal with it, but the answer is much easier to block one punch than a combination. Now the two fastest guys Oscar fought were Mayweather and Mosley, but they at least at welterweight aren't known as combination punchers, and as sneaky as Mayweather is, you are only reacting to one punch when he throws something, and its usually at the same speed(a huge problem Berto also has even when he throws combinations). With Pacquiao he will throw a semi-lazy jab multiple times then whip a left cross as fast as anyone throws anything. Not only that but when Pacquiao is at his best he is usually throwing the right hook or the right jab behind it. I think his speed along with his combination punching(straight punches, not looping like Mosley which made him easier to outbox in ODLH-Mosley 2) will give Oscar some troubles. Not to mention I think that he won't hurt Oscar, but he will get his respect with a left cross which Oscar based on his hand position, and lack of upper body movement should be open to. I think you need incredible awareness like JMM to stop Pacquiao from throwing that cross, and thats by moving in right before Pacquiao wants to throw it(he likes a lot of space to throw the cross which is why he throws so many jabs to set it up), and either punching Pacquiao or moving back out before he can adapt.

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Yes, Oscar hasn't meet anyone with a combination like PAcquaio's.

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Shane Mosley?

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Shane Mosley was a combination puncher at lightweight, but he never fought big name opponents at lightweight, I've never seen him be an effective combination puncher against quality opponents. Pacquiao has consistently thrown combinations against the best opposition, and he has a way higher volume like somebody stated, its different, Once again Mundine throws combinations, but CAlzaghe has a much higher work rate.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

He fought PBF didn't he?

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Its a different kind of speed, PBF is countering you, he generally throws at one speed, Pacquiao throws at different speeds and he throws combinations of straight punches which is rare, and he has great timing coming forward, and I definitely think Pacquiao's footspeed will play a huge role if he can use it properly, but he obviously isn't a defensive fighter, and Oscar is pretty quick himself, but I think Oscar will be wide open for Pacquiao's shots.

The one thing I do notice is that Oscar doesn't counter too often anymore, when PBF was throwing punches Oscar was too focused on blocking them, same with against Forbes. If Pacquiao can't get a high work rate going (albeit very hard against the size, skill, and speed of Oscar) I really wonder if Oscar will be able to respond.

One thing I worry about Pacquiao is that Roach is set on Oscar showing up with no right cross, but Oscar used one effectively against Pernell Whitaker, and landed it as much as anything against him. Oscar has a much better right hand than he used, and if the Pacquiao corner is banking on Oscar being a one handed fighter then they are fighting a lost cause.

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Good observations Teath but to speak basically, i think Oscar was continuing the the blocking theme against Forbes in anticipation of a Mayweather rematch.

It was definately the right idea against Mayweather. Forbes was a glorified Sparring Match.
For Pacquiao, im sure, Oscar will have a new plan.

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Originally Posted by Majesty

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Originally Posted by brucelee

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think this will necessarily change the outcome of the fight, but I was watching Kessler-Mundine, and thinking to myself Mundine is significantly faster than Calzaghe, and he punches more solidly, why can Kessler deal with it, but the answer is much easier to block one punch than a combination. Now the two fastest guys Oscar fought were Mayweather and Mosley, but they at least at welterweight aren't known as combination punchers, and as sneaky as Mayweather is, you are only reacting to one punch when he throws something, and its usually at the same speed(a huge problem Berto also has even when he throws combinations). With Pacquiao he will throw a semi-lazy jab multiple times then whip a left cross as fast as anyone throws anything. Not only that but when Pacquiao is at his best he is usually throwing the right hook or the right jab behind it. I think his speed along with his combination punching(straight punches, not looping like Mosley which made him easier to outbox in ODLH-Mosley 2) will give Oscar some troubles. Not to mention I think that he won't hurt Oscar, but he will get his respect with a left cross which Oscar based on his hand position, and lack of upper body movement should be open to. I think you need incredible awareness like JMM to stop Pacquiao from throwing that cross, and thats by moving in right before Pacquiao wants to throw it(he likes a lot of space to throw the cross which is why he throws so many jabs to set it up), and either punching Pacquiao or moving back out before he can adapt.

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Yes, Oscar hasn't meet anyone with a combination like PAcquaio's.

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Shane Mosley?

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Yeah, and Oscar lost to Shane.:cool: That's the reason why I started a thread asking if Manny can do a Shane Mosley on Oscar.;)

Pernell Whitaker
Hector Camacho
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather

It doesn't matter if they fight differently to Manny Pacquiao, the fact is he has dealt with fighters just as fast as Manny Pacquiao.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/20..._470x395,0.jpg

we dont really know just how fast Pac is right now tbh, I do think he will still be very fast and make Oscar uncomfortable. The one thing i have noticed about oscar lately is he doesnt move his head. He blocks punches with his arms. This is a good thing for Pac because he likes to throw from angles and throw punches that can get aroud the glove of his opponent like he did Marquez. Oscar can eliminate this though as long as he uses his jab and times Manny coming in with his right hand.

As long as Oscar fights his fight, the bigger mans fight, he will win.

This will not be a good fight. Manny is great but not at 147. I'm not going to shell out 50 bucks to watch a boring fight. Hand speed is good but he needs to have some pop in his punch. Oscar in a easy win.

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Originally Posted by ICB

Pernell Whitaker
Hector Camacho
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather

It doesn't matter if they fight differently to Manny Pacquiao, the fact is he has dealt with fighters just as fast as Manny Pacquiao.

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Neither Pernell Whitaker or Camacho are in Pacquiao class in either handspeed or especially footspeed...

He didn't deal with Mayweather's speed well at all, considering Mayweather was potshotting, and same with Mosley in the first fight, Oscar tried to to come forward and was countered a lot because he used to get sloppy defensively when he came forward.

Once again though they didn't throw in punches.

As for Manny punch, I don't think he needs to be able to take Oscar out to make Oscar respect his punch, I mean Mosley couldn't take Oscar out, but Oscar was definitely held in check by his power, Mayweather couldn't hurt Oscar, but when he threw punches Oscar definitely felt it. I am not sure if Manny will hit as hard as Mayweather, but if he's in that league Oscar will be feeling his punches, because Oscar admitted that Mayweather stunned him a few times, and especially with a left hook to the body in the 11th near the begining.

The reason I don't feel Camacho has Pacquiao's handspeed is because his cross didn't fly out like Manny's when I watch a guy like Whitaker I can follow the punch relatively easily, but with the faster guys like Pacquiao, Mayweather, Mosley, especially Berto is much harder and sometimes impossible.

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Originally Posted by ICB

Pernell Whitaker
Hector Camacho
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather

It doesn't matter if they fight differently to Manny Pacquiao, the fact is he has dealt with fighters just as fast as Manny Pacquiao.

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I don't personally think that camacho was as fast as pac. But the other 3 were and IMO better with the exception of sweet pea who was coming towards the end!

I seem to remember Ike Quartey having some pretty nice hands when he exploded in combination.Who's to say what Pac's speed will be like...at 147 ??I think he may be to muscled up,maybe stiff.

But once again I don't think Mayweather punches faster moving backwards like he was against Oscar, that takes speed of your punches, and neither him nor Mosley threw a whole lot of combinations.

In all honesty I use to think Mayweather was way faster than Pacquiao now I don't think so. I think Pacquiao doesn't always throw fast punches which might make him look slower in certain circumstances, but overall his handspeed is right up there with them, only Berto IMO seems significantly faster, and not just than Pacquiao, but faster than Mayweather and Mosley as well.

ALl that being said I give Pacquiao quite a slim chance, maybe 20% of winning the fight, and less than 50% chance of finishing it.

I prefer a more deliberate, methodical approach here than pac's usual high-speed, hi-energy, hi-output approach which I think will expose him to too much risk. I think Oscar is still pretty much capable of finishing the job with one big shot. I want pac to keep his guard up high, patiently and cautiously stalk Oscar to his left, take well calculated shots especially to the body whenever there's an opening, and systematically wear him down, while at the same time protecting himself all the time, and hope that in the end, Oscar's body can't take it no more. I must be dreamin.'

I didn't know he would win, I thought he would lose, but I knew his speed was something Oscar never encountered before. Pacquiao IMO is now the best fighter since probably JCC if not Leonard because of accomplishments. I knew Oscar couldn't walk through his punches, but I never expected anything like this, I've seriously in some part of my mind anticipated every other fight that has happened to date how they did, but this fight totally caught me off guard. I would love to see Mayweather vs Pacquiao, they might honestly be the two best fighters since the Leonard/Duran era, and I think they would be a great fight, and I think Manny's speed compares very well like Isaid before.

haha not only do we have the predictable 'I told you how it would happen and I was right!!!' threads but now people are posting threads telling us that even though they were wrong in their prediction they were still right in their hearts :rolleyes:

Well done, you thought the extreme speed and aggression of one of the fastest fighters in the world might be a factor against an old 35 year old warhorse, more interested in promoting fights than taking part these days and who had to get down to his lowest weight for 12 years.

Your powers of analysis truly have no beginning :)

:)

I said I knew his speed would play a factor...nothing else


I honestly thought he would lose this fight, I thought Oscar would stop him from the 6th round on at any point, I was surprised as anyone before the fight, that the outcome was, what it was. I've been saying that Pacquiao is the best fighter in the world, but Oscar is Oscar, I had an inkling that an offensive fighter would do well where Mayweather didn't, but I had absolutely no idea it would be to this degree.

Honestly, Pacquiao proved me wrong and I give him every credit in the world, there is a world of difference between beating a guy like Roy Jones Jr at 39, and Oscar at 35, nobody ever did this to Oscar. I was honestly waiting every round for him to adapt to Manny's speed then pick him apart, but it never came to pass, and for that I am so happy for Manny who fought great on every level. And he was near the weight for several weeks going by 24/7. If he had difficulties there is no proof of it. The ass stomping was legit.

Don't make gay excuses Bilbo, I'm not, Pacquiao is plainly better than Calzaghe... or maybe even prime Mayweather and Roy Jones Jr, My favorite fighters ever. I can't see Roy beating a guy like OScar who was a heavyweight, and Mayweather had many more difficulties. If Oscar didn't make weight by two pounds, and had to weigh in several times, I would agree with the thought that he hadn't fought at 147, but he fought at 150 before it which is 3 pounds up, and at welterweight that begins to not be such a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I said I knew his speed would play a factor...nothing else


I honestly thought he would lose this fight, I thought Oscar would stop him from the 6th round on at any point, I was surprised as anyone before the fight, that the outcome was, what it was. I've been saying that Pacquiao is the best fighter in the world, but Oscar is Oscar, I had an inkling that an offensive fighter would do well where Mayweather didn't, but I had absolutely no idea it would be to this degree.

Honestly, Pacquiao proved me wrong and I give him every credit in the world, there is a world of difference between beating a guy like Roy Jones Jr at 39, and Oscar at 35, nobody ever did this to Oscar. I was honestly waiting every round for him to adapt to Manny's speed then pick him apart, but it never came to pass, and for that I am so happy for Manny who fought great on every level. And he was near the weight for several weeks going by 24/7. If he had difficulties there is no proof of it. The ass stomping was legit.

Don't make gay excuses Bilbo, I'm not, Pacquiao is plainly better than Calzaghe... or maybe even prime Mayweather and Roy Jones Jr, My favorite fighters ever. I can't see Roy beating a guy like OScar who was a heavyweight, and Mayweather had many more difficulties. If Oscar didn't make weight by two pounds, and had to weigh in several times, I would agree with the thought that he hadn't fought at 147, but he fought at 150 before it which is 3 pounds up, and at welterweight that begins to not be such a big difference.

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Make excuses for what? I knew Pac would win. I created a post a few weeks ago saying Oscar would be weight drained like Chris Byrd, no fighter can drop two divisions after 12 years and be healthy, never been done before.

I even said he'd quit on his stool just as the fight was about to start ;)

True every single week I say the same about the fighter I want to lose but it doesn't alter the fact that this week I was dead right :cool:

No fighter can drop two weight divisions when was he a natural middleweight? He never weighed in at 160. He weighed in against Hopkins at 155 which is a pound over 154. He came in 3 pounds more than he did against Forbes where he looked fine.

Did you say he would quit on his stool before it started on here? Or to yourself and your "friends" not htat your friends aren't real, but that you actually said it.

Oscar wouldnt' ahve made weight by 2 pounds if it was so difficult, he was around the weight for a couple of weeks at least which I just said. Manny is the best fighter in the world, maybe the best fighter in a long time, this is a guy who has foughten competitive fights with everyone before this, even against Mayweather he was competitive in losing most rounds, but they were relatively close, especially compared to this.

People who say the wieght is the issue are idiots, Oscar was fine weight wise, or he would rehydrated higher, and he would looked like a ghost at weigh-in, and neither happened. I think he didn't come in big enough if anything.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

haha not only do we have the predictable 'I told you how it would happen and I was right!!!' threads but now people are posting threads telling us that even though they were wrong in their prediction they were still right in their hearts :rolleyes:

Well done, you thought the extreme speed and aggression of one of the fastest fighters in the world might be a factor against an old 35 year old warhorse, more interested in promoting fights than taking part these days and who had to get down to his lowest weight for 12 years.

Your powers of analysis truly have no beginning :)

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HAHAHAH well said Bilbo ;D

Agreed... Too much speed and enough power to hurt DLH was too much... Nice show! The so-called "circus show" was indeed a SHOW...LOL!;D

I must agree with TAeth. DLH was not weight drained my good friend Bilbo. He was around 147 even weeks before the fight. He was even 145 during weigh in with no issue of his weight.:cool:

You were absolutely right, Taeth.


If my memory is correct, his basic strategy today was to probe, attack in very stiff 1-2 combination and retract or withdraw immediately, attack in his usual 1-2-3 combos, often with bodyshots when he think he got Oscar. In the later half of the fight when Oscar was hurt, he did pretty much what he wanted to do. Oscar was visibly hurt from both head and body shots. I remember at one point at around 6-7th round, a body shot stopped cold Oscar's offense and he started to withdraw...

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

I seem to remember Ike Quartey having some pretty nice hands when he exploded in combination.Who's to say what Pac's speed will be like...at 147 ??I think he may be to muscled up,maybe stiff.

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Turns out from what I'm hearing his speed was just fine and combinations intact.Not stiff at all.Manny Congratulations on an outstanding victory and maximizing a very big opportunity,you are without a doubt one of the very best.Job well done.

Oscar,please retire.Have watched you live from day one of career and although I have referred to you in the past as The Colgate kid,the Diva,King Midas,and DelaHypa,you are to be congratulated on a superb and very productive career.Your business sense and ability to keep yourself in the spotlight on the main stage throughout the many years is unparalleled and to be .......respected.Ahem,Please do not turn Ring Magazine into a watered down version of GQ or Oprah and I wish you the very best in your promotional career.Thanks for the memories.....and don't let the door hit you on the backside.

Atlas prediction on this fight, one min. in.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2MHz5MI71ZY