Prospects you wish would have been great

i was thinking about how many prospects look like they'll be a force to be reckoned with, but then either end up losing to not so great opposition or never end up being as good as you had hoped or thought they'd be, my personal pick is Fernando Vargas, many people are quick to say he was overrated, when honestly i say it was wrecked due to bad managing, the guy had it all, power, good boxing ability, heart, took risks (sometimes too many), was willing to fight everyone, and also could sell a fight easily. was wonderin if you guys could share your picks

I know what you mean about Vargas but at least he did become a champ. Many prospects never even win a title. David Reid was a guy I hoped would stick around longer. Both Reid & Vargas have losses to Tito & were never really the same after fighting that Puerto Rican power puncher.

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Originally Posted by BlackRazor

I know what you mean about Vargas but at least he did become a champ. Many prospects never even win a title. David Reid was a guy I hoped would stick around longer. Both Reid & Vargas have losses to Tito & were never really the same after fighting that Puerto Rican power puncher.

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Well David Reid won a world title, he was the WBA Jr. Middleweight Champion in just his 12th fight, but then got badly whooped by Trinidad, fun fact about Reid read in an article a whiiiiiile back that his droopy eye lid was caused by another Puerto Rican and now WBA Jr. Middleweight Champion, Daniel Santos in an amatuer fight in the Pan-Am Games, but back to Vargas, i honestly felt before and then even more so right after the Trinidad fight, that if he was groomed right that he could have been an all time great in the Jr. Middleweight division

i was on jeff lacy's bandwagon for awhile until jc exposed him and he's never been the same. i was hoping he would be the second coming of iron mike.

Raphael Butler and Rodney Jones. When I first seen Butler I thought damn he has great boxing skill and fast hands. I thought he would easily become in the mix of top contender's and champion's in the heavies. Then he kept getting knocked out and that was the end of that.

Rodney Jones I still think has potential but it seems piss poor management has gotten him nowhere.

Another that comes to mind even though he had belt was Ike Ibeabuchi. I always felt he would clean out the division. Yes Lennox,Tyson,Holyfield and Bowe I thought he could whip.

Lawrence Clay-Bey, Francisco Bojado, David Izon ended up being a big flop. Had hopes for all of them.

Mark Breland, Johnny Bumphus, Naseem Hamed, Brian Viloria, Junior Jones, Greg Page, Riddick Bowe, Tommy Morrison, Gerry Cooney, Andrew Golota, Buster Douglas...

I guess they've crossed past as "prospects", some of them champs briefly, but they still underachieved bigtime, for perception was, they would have conquered. Still a lot more... If given enough time to nudge this brain.

Juan Roldan, Cornelious Boza Edwards, Michael Wright....

Nadal Hussein, Lehlo Ledwaba.

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

Rey Bautista - I was really hoping he could grow a chin :-\

Brian Viloria - Frustrating to watch, just keep throwing and you win! :mad:

Andy Lee - I still can't believe he lost to Vera! I guess he still has time to be great though. his only 24 i think and his a freak, 6 feet 2 middleweight train by Stewart!

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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Yeah on Witherspoon. Was never quite sure what happened to him. Even in defeat against Holmes he looked real good. But then he just kind of faded away slowly. Lack of ambition? Drugs?

Marvis I didn't see a lot of coming up, I knew he existed. But seeing him against Holmes and Tyson he was completely and totally outmatched, outclassed, outgunned. Like he had no business fighting for the heavyweight title.

Shame on me I forgot Tim Witherpsoon but he did have the belt breifly so I guess he achevied greatness at one point actually twice.

[quote=CGM;658076]

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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Yeah on Witherspoon. Was never quite sure what happened to him. Even in defeat against Holmes he looked real good. But then he just kind of faded away slowly. Lack of ambition? Drugs?

Marvis I didn't see a lot of coming up, I knew he existed. But seeing him against Homes and Tyson he was completely and totally outmatched, outclassed, outgunned. Like he had no business fighting for the heavyweight title.[/quote
Spoon was Kings fault,he cut the tap on fights for him because they were bitching about what a federal court would agree with,King was stealing money from him,and Spoon caught him.
Marvis was really Joe's fault,and let me caveat this by saying Joe is one of my idols,but he got it in to his head that Marvis had to be a power punching heavyweight,if he had let him be what he really was, a speedy sniping cruiserweight/light heavyweight, he might have gone down as one of the greats.

[quote=Trainer Monkey;658078]

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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Yeah on Witherspoon. Was never quite sure what happened to him. Even in defeat against Holmes he looked real good. But then he just kind of faded away slowly. Lack of ambition? Drugs?

Marvis I didn't see a lot of coming up, I knew he existed. But seeing him against Homes and Tyson he was completely and totally outmatched, outclassed, outgunned. Like he had no business fighting for the heavyweight title.[/quote
Spoon was Kings fault,he cut the tap on fights for him because they were bitching about what a federal court would agree with,King was stealing money from him,and Spoon caught him.
Marvis was really Joe's fault,and let me caveat this by saying Joe is one of my idols,but he got it in to his head that Marvis had to be a power punching heavyweight,if he had let him be what he really was, a speedy sniping cruiserweight/light heavyweight, he might have gone down as one of the greats.

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I never knew this until Tim Witherpsoon told me but Marvis and him were in the open class golden gloves together and Marvis won and Tim was knocked down in his first fight and lost on points. Also in that division was my old trainer Kerry Judge who won the novice class golden gloves when those two entered. Kerry wasn't known as well as his brother Jerry Judge who was one of the four fighter's who fought George Foreman one night in Toronto.

NO real relevance to what you posted just thought it was cool.

[quote=The Fightfan;658080]

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by CGM

Yeah on Witherspoon. Was never quite sure what happened to him. Even in defeat against Holmes he looked real good. But then he just kind of faded away slowly. Lack of ambition? Drugs?

Marvis I didn't see a lot of coming up, I knew he existed. But seeing him against Homes and Tyson he was completely and totally outmatched, outclassed, outgunned. Like he had no business fighting for the heavyweight title.[/quote
Spoon was Kings fault,he cut the tap on fights for him because they were bitching about what a federal court would agree with,King was stealing money from him,and Spoon caught him.
Marvis was really Joe's fault,and let me caveat this by saying Joe is one of my idols,but he got it in to his head that Marvis had to be a power punching heavyweight,if he had let him be what he really was, a speedy sniping cruiserweight/light heavyweight, he might have gone down as one of the greats.

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I never knew this until Tim Witherpsoon told me but Marvis and him were in the open class golden gloves together and Marvis won and Tim was knocked down in his first fight and lost on points. Also in that division was my old trainer Kerry Judge who won the novice class golden gloves when those two entered. Kerry wasn't known as well as his brother Jerry Judge who was one of the four fighter's who fought George Foreman one night in Toronto.

NO real relevance to what you posted just thought it was cool.

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Just to spin this completely off course,you training at Spoons gym?

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

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Originally Posted by BlackRazor

I know what you mean about Vargas but at least he did become a champ. Many prospects never even win a title. David Reid was a guy I hoped would stick around longer. Both Reid & Vargas have losses to Tito & were never really the same after fighting that Puerto Rican power puncher.

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Well David Reid won a world title, he was the WBA Jr. Middleweight Champion in just his 12th fight, but then got badly whooped by Trinidad, fun fact about Reid read in an article a whiiiiiile back that his droopy eye lid was caused by another Puerto Rican and now WBA Jr. Middleweight Champion, Daniel Santos in an amatuer fight in the Pan-Am Games, but back to Vargas, i honestly felt before and then even more so right after the Trinidad fight, that if he was groomed right that he could have been an all time great in the Jr. Middleweight division

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I didn't know that was from Santos. That's a tough guy most would probably avoid, he's a lefty for one. Also won another title via a KO of an unbeaten fighter.

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i was thinking about how many prospects look like they'll be a force to be reckoned with, but then either end up losing to not so great opposition or never end up being as good as you had hoped or thought they'd be, my personal pick is Fernando Vargas, many people are quick to say he was overrated, when honestly i say it was wrecked due to bad managing, the guy had it all, power, good boxing ability, heart, took risks (sometimes too many), was willing to fight everyone, and also could sell a fight easily. was wonderin if you guys could share your picks

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But even if Fernando Vargas had been allowed to develop a bit more, could he have honestly ever have beaten ODLH, Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley ?

I mean i understand what your saying and i agree somewhat, and he did impress me in his early fights especially against Winky Wright, but the point im making i don't think he could have ever have beaten the fighters i mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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Angel Manfredy ? Marvis Frazier ? are you frigging kidding me ? and as for Earnie Shavers he couldn't of done any better. He simply was in the strongest era in Heavyweight history.

And he fell short although he had a few big wins, he simply always fell short against a majority of the top boys, and thats because he had very suspect stamina, and at times a shaky chin.

Excuse me for being picky but most of the names listed were not prospects they were more contenders.

For me I would have to say Francisco "Panchito" Bojado.

When I first saw Marc johnson....thought he was a long lasting force.Did pretty well in career though,as had many guys listed here,but ultimatly was plauged with personal difficulties,did not shy away from unnecessary shoot outs and chin was a bit shaky.Surerb fighter though.

Zack Padilla...again,one that DID reach Championship stature but career cut short while on a top notch run.

Marshall Martinez. I met this guy. And was present at his pro debut. Had good skills but couldn't leave the streets behind. Was the other guy who got busted with Ricardo Williams in that drug arrest and went to prison. Got out recently and has resume his career. But it's going to be a long road back. Lacks the work ethic of his cousin Steven Luevano

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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Angel Manfredy ? Marvis Frazier ? are you frigging kidding me ? and as for Earnie Shavers he couldn't of done any better. He simply was in the strongest era in Heavyweight history.

And he fell short although he had a few big wins, he simply always fell short against a majority of the top boys, and thats because he had very suspect stamina, and at times a shaky chin.

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Manfredy fought Mayweather,beat Gatti,and Rodriguez,wasted Calvin Grove
Frazier fought both Tyson and Holmes,was the US Amateur champion,beat Bonecrusher Smith,Quick Tillis,and Joe Bugner
So Id reverse the question,are you freaking kidding me?

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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Angel Manfredy ? Marvis Frazier ? are you frigging kidding me ? and as for Earnie Shavers he couldn't of done any better. He simply was in the strongest era in Heavyweight history.

And he fell short although he had a few big wins, he simply always fell short against a majority of the top boys, and thats because he had very suspect stamina, and at times a shaky chin.

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Manfredy fought Mayweather,beat Gatti,and Rodriguez,wasted Calvin Grove
Frazier fought both Tyson and Holmes,was the US Amateur champion,beat Bonecrusher Smith,Quick Tillis,and Joe Bugner
So Id reverse the question,are you freaking kidding me?

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Marvis Frazier was destroyed in less than a round by Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, so how does that help your arguement ? James Tillis was a journeyman with good footwork but never the less a journeyman.

Joe Bugner was far removed from his prime, and despite a good performance against Joe Frazier he never impressed me, and he was always way too cautious which cost him in alot of fights. James Smith had good power but again his skill-set was nowhere to be seen.

And lastly Angel Manfredy i agree wasn't a bad fighter, and he had a few good wins but he was destroyed by Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales but again. When did Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, ever show greatness ? and when did these fighters ever show they could of been the best at there weightclasses ?

I mean i can understand Tim Witherspon on your list, he did have very good skills and could of gone down as one of the greatest Heavyweights of his era. And he did show greatness in a few of his fights before Don King ruined him.

Do you see what im getting now ? IMO this thread was supposed to be about fighters who did show great ability, but never achieved there full potiental. Guys like Marvis Frazier, Angel Manfredy, don't fit this category, even if you did like them as fighters.

Ricardo Mayorga.
I wish he would have dedicated himself more than he did.

Z Gorres for me. But I call him the uncrown champion coz he just can't get a break from the referees and judges. I really feel he should've won against Montiel and Darchinyan.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

Angel Manfredy ? Marvis Frazier ? are you frigging kidding me ? and as for Earnie Shavers he couldn't of done any better. He simply was in the strongest era in Heavyweight history.

And he fell short although he had a few big wins, he simply always fell short against a majority of the top boys, and thats because he had very suspect stamina, and at times a shaky chin.

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Manfredy fought Mayweather,beat Gatti,and Rodriguez,wasted Calvin Grove
Frazier fought both Tyson and Holmes,was the US Amateur champion,beat Bonecrusher Smith,Quick Tillis,and Joe Bugner
So Id reverse the question,are you freaking kidding me?

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Marvis Frazier was destroyed in less than a round by Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, so how does that help your arguement ? James Tillis was a journeyman with good footwork but never the less a journeyman.

Joe Bugner was far removed from his prime, and despite a good performance against Joe Frazier he never impressed me, and he was always way too cautious which cost him in alot of fights. James Smith had good power but again his skill-set was nowhere to be seen.

And lastly Angel Manfredy i agree wasn't a bad fighter, and he had a few good wins but he was destroyed by Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales but again. When did Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, ever show greatness ? and when did these fighters ever show they could of been the best at there weightclasses ?

I mean i can understand Tim Witherspon on your list, he did have very good skills and could of gone down as one of the greatest Heavyweights of his era. And he did show greatness in a few of his fights before Don King ruined him.

Do you see what im getting now ? IMO this thread was supposed to be about fighters who did show great ability, but never achieved there full potiental. Guys like Marvis Frazier, Angel Manfredy, don't fit this category, even if you did like them as fighters.

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Did you get the original question,it was about PROSPECTS,that means someone that looked good early and then FAILED
Like Marvis Frazier,who was underweight and got screwed up trying to turn him in to a slugger,or Manfredy,who allways seemed on the verge of a nervous breakdown,but had skills early on.
Again go back to the original question,a PROSPECT who could have been great

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

Z Gorres for me. But I call him the uncrown champion coz he just can't get a break from the referees and judges. I really feel he should've won against Montiel and Darchinyan.

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Gorres biggest problem is the fact that he can't stay on his feet. He deserved the loss to Montiel. And should of got one against Darchinyan.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by Pacstraightleft

Z Gorres for me. But I call him the uncrown champion coz he just can't get a break from the referees and judges. I really feel he should've won against Montiel and Darchinyan.

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Gorres biggest problem is the fact that he can't stay on his feet. He deserved the loss to Montiel. And should of got one against Darchinyan.

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Gorres was winning. He didn't deserve those penalties. The ref was lame.

Gorres slipped and the ref calls it a KD for Darchinyan. That was bullshit too.

Gorres deserves a rematch against one those two.

I'd like to add this... We all know that Montiel is very crappy against leftys. That's why I'm giving him zero chance against Darchinyan.

Rolando Navarette, Andy Ganigan, John "the Beast" Mugabi, Carl "the Truth" Williams...

[quote=Trainer Monkey;658078][quote=CGM;658076]

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Goofi Whitaker
Ernie Shavers
Marvis Frazier
Angel Manfreddy
Tim Witherspoon

All guys who you thought could be one of the greats coming up,all did not

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<Yeah on Witherspoon. Was never quite sure what happened to him. Even in defeat against Holmes he looked real good. But then he just kind of faded away slowly. Lack of ambition? Drugs?>

I saw a Tim Witherspoon interview on TV a while back, discussing about the difficulties of boxers to get fair share with their fight purses.


In the interview, Witherspoon expressed a passionate "hate" towards Don King whom he viewed as primarily responsible for his dismal ring underachievements. He as champion, was perceived to have earned millions, or at least gained some personal comfort from the monies earned. Wrong! Nothing farther from the truth!

For, as he stated, he never got any substantial money after the fights, making him always hungier for the next, and the next one after that. (apparently a DK strategy) The perks, unsolicited, like cars and expensive lodgings, dinners and the like.... are always subtracted later on to diminish his winnings, leaving him always with almost nothing. Perpetually fighting for peanuts at best, and for just accommodations at worst.

He tried the courts to get DK to hand him his fair share, but I believe the courts likewise never quite delivered for him.

DK is the "Flaw in Boxing".

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Manfredy fought Mayweather,beat Gatti,and Rodriguez,wasted Calvin Grove
Frazier fought both Tyson and Holmes,was the US Amateur champion,beat Bonecrusher Smith,Quick Tillis,and Joe Bugner
So Id reverse the question,are you freaking kidding me?

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Marvis Frazier was destroyed in less than a round by Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, so how does that help your arguement ? James Tillis was a journeyman with good footwork but never the less a journeyman.

Joe Bugner was far removed from his prime, and despite a good performance against Joe Frazier he never impressed me, and he was always way too cautious which cost him in alot of fights. James Smith had good power but again his skill-set was nowhere to be seen.

And lastly Angel Manfredy i agree wasn't a bad fighter, and he had a few good wins but he was destroyed by Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales but again. When did Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, ever show greatness ? and when did these fighters ever show they could of been the best at there weightclasses ?

I mean i can understand Tim Witherspon on your list, he did have very good skills and could of gone down as one of the greatest Heavyweights of his era. And he did show greatness in a few of his fights before Don King ruined him.

Do you see what im getting now ? IMO this thread was supposed to be about fighters who did show great ability, but never achieved there full potiental. Guys like Marvis Frazier, Angel Manfredy, don't fit this category, even if you did like them as fighters.

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Did you get the original question,it was about PROSPECTS,that means someone that looked good early and then FAILED
Like Marvis Frazier,who was underweight and got screwed up trying to turn him in to a slugger,or Manfredy,who allways seemed on the verge of a nervous breakdown,but had skills early on.
Again go back to the original question,a PROSPECT who could have been great

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Thats what i was saying so maybe you should go back to the orignal question, when Angel Manfredy fought the names you mentioned was he really and truly a prospect at that time ?

And did you honestly ever think at anytime that Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? please this argument is ridiculous just honestly look at what your saying. Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? i think you need to lay off on whatever your taking.

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Rolando Navarette, Andy Ganigan, John "the Beast" Mugabi, Carl "the Truth" Williams...

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Carl Williams was a very skilled fighter he looked like a young Larry Holmes at times, he had a terrific jab and good movement. And he was unlucky not to get the decision against Larry Holmes, except i think he blew away the last 4 rounds against Larry Holmes which cost him by 1 point IMO.

But yea as i was saying a terrific fighter unfortunately he had a china chin. I mean he was beating Tommy Morrison, Mike Weaver, until his chin let him down. Honestly had his chin been better he could have been a force.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Rolando Navarette, Andy Ganigan, John "the Beast" Mugabi, Carl "the Truth" Williams...

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Carl Williams was a very skilled fighter he looked like a young Larry Holmes at times, he had a terrific jab and good movement. And he was unlucky not to get the decision against Larry Holmes, except i think he blew away the last 4 rounds against Larry Holmes which cost him by 1 point IMO.

But yea as i was saying a terrific fighter unfortunately he had a china chin. I mean he was beating Tommy Morrison, Mike Weaver, until his chin let him down. Honestly had his chin been better he could have been a force.

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One of the longest wingspans that I know of... Muhammad Ali neighborhood or better, too far to recollect. A great jab, like that of Holmes, yeah! Does not have the it! to stay with the greats!



Ceferino "Bolo Punch" Garcia. Filipino Middleweight!!! champion who had fought Henry Armstrong at light middleweight to a draw in the olden days. I thought he would have dominated longer with that bolo punch, but apparently was easily countered, so the short reign at middle (one defense?)

(This was waaaay before my time, I am not that old! LOL)

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

Marvis Frazier was destroyed in less than a round by Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, so how does that help your arguement ? James Tillis was a journeyman with good footwork but never the less a journeyman.

Joe Bugner was far removed from his prime, and despite a good performance against Joe Frazier he never impressed me, and he was always way too cautious which cost him in alot of fights. James Smith had good power but again his skill-set was nowhere to be seen.

And lastly Angel Manfredy i agree wasn't a bad fighter, and he had a few good wins but he was destroyed by Floyd Mayweather, Diego Corrales but again. When did Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, ever show greatness ? and when did these fighters ever show they could of been the best at there weightclasses ?

I mean i can understand Tim Witherspon on your list, he did have very good skills and could of gone down as one of the greatest Heavyweights of his era. And he did show greatness in a few of his fights before Don King ruined him.

Do you see what im getting now ? IMO this thread was supposed to be about fighters who did show great ability, but never achieved there full potiental. Guys like Marvis Frazier, Angel Manfredy, don't fit this category, even if you did like them as fighters.

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Did you get the original question,it was about PROSPECTS,that means someone that looked good early and then FAILED
Like Marvis Frazier,who was underweight and got screwed up trying to turn him in to a slugger,or Manfredy,who allways seemed on the verge of a nervous breakdown,but had skills early on.
Again go back to the original question,a PROSPECT who could have been great

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Thats what i was saying so maybe you should go back to the orignal question, when Angel Manfredy fought the names you mentioned was he really and truly a prospect at that time ?

And did you honestly ever think at anytime that Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? please this argument is ridiculous just honestly look at what your saying. Angel Manfredy, Marvis Frazier, could have been great ? i think you need to lay off on whatever your taking.

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Come now,Marvis was the National Amateur Champ,National Gold Gloves Champ,beat Witherspoon,Smith,and Green in Amateurs,I think that would qualify as a PROSPECT,and truthfully one that should have beena cruiserweight,he allways fought light. Hell he fought Holmes in only his 10th pro fight
Manfredy won 23 out of his first 25 fights,including two over former champs Paez and Grove,making him a PROSPECT,heck when he beat Robinson,it was HBO after darks highest rated show of 1999,so somebody must have thought something of him as a PROSPECT.

Jemal Hinton...kid had everything in talent and backing.He just simply walked away.

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Originally Posted by Nonito Donaire

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Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales

i was thinking about how many prospects look like they'll be a force to be reckoned with, but then either end up losing to not so great opposition or never end up being as good as you had hoped or thought they'd be, my personal pick is Fernando Vargas, many people are quick to say he was overrated, when honestly i say it was wrecked due to bad managing, the guy had it all, power, good boxing ability, heart, took risks (sometimes too many), was willing to fight everyone, and also could sell a fight easily. was wonderin if you guys could share your picks

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But even if Fernando Vargas had been allowed to develop a bit more, could he have honestly ever have beaten ODLH, Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley ?

I mean i understand what your saying and i agree somewhat, and he did impress me in his early fights especially against Winky Wright, but the point im making i don't think he could have ever have beaten the fighters i mentioned above.

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honestly, yes i do think he would have been able to beat them all, i mean he just needed to rack up more experience, and one thing i noticed re-watching Vargas' career is that after each loss a little bit more of him was gone, and i don't think it was as much physical as it was mental, i mean i know he has back probs, but i look at it this way, relatively un-experienced big fights and they throw him in against Trinidad, he gets dropped twice in the first round, yet gives him hell from there on out until getting stopped in the final round, if he was a bit more experienced he wouldn't of fallen into that trap and well get caught so easily, i think he would have been able to outbox Trinidad for the decision, and the DLH fight would have been the closest of the 3, cause honestly one eyed and i had him ahead in the Mosley fight, rematch well he gave a half assed effort IMO

mike anchondo before i was a big fan i use to beat every body with him on fight night then he went to espn and ktfo twice

also still a fan jeff lacy
jimrex jaca gave a hard time to jmm but has no chin

Anyone remember Angel Vasquez at feather/spr feather?Kid was supposed to be the next big thing with power,ranked in the top ten by all bodies and talked about for a shot at Hamed??Ran into perennial title challenger Victor Polo for an title eliminator dec. loss....followed by a KO defeat at the hands of a Ivan Valle....:-X....then quit?

What about Lamar Parks?Had some nice skills but everything was cut short after Johnson schooled him and 'health issues' I thought he would be around as champ.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Anyone remember Angel Vasquez at feather/spr feather?Kid was supposed to be the next big thing with power,ranked in the top ten by all bodies and talked about for a shot at Hamed??Ran into perennial title challenger Victor Polo for an title eliminator dec. loss....followed by a KO defeat at the hands of a Ivan Valle....:-X....then quit?

What about Lamar Parks?Had some nice skills but everything was cut short after Johnson schooled him and 'health issues' I thought he would be around as champ.

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I remember Vazquez. His fight with Valle was on ESPN I think. He got dropped and didn't even try and get up. Just stood on his knees. Never fought again. Thing with Vazquez was he was like 34 years old. I don't think his heart was really into Boxing any more after losing to Polo. I think he taught it was to long a road back at his age.