pavlik after hopkins

anyone who watched the pavlik vs hopkins fight saw that hopkins totally dominated him to the point where it was almost reminisent of calzaghe vs lacy. pavliks one of my favorite fighters (obviously) and my opinion is that this was just the wrong fight for him, wether it be the weight or hopkins style etc, and that he'll get back on track back down at middleweight in 2009. some people tend to think that this fight might have ruined kelly to some extent, as i said i disagree, but i would be interested to hear what you guys think.

I think mentally it did him alot of damage, but I think if he gets a couple of wins under his belt he'll be back to normal. I think his next fight will tell us alot about where he is...

Kelly became my favourite fighter in 2007 when he ko'd Zertuche, Miranda and Taylor.

Against Hopkins he was up against someone who was 10 pounds heavier than he was and Pavlik was also suffering from bronchitis. That said, Hopkins exposed some glaring technical deficiencies in Kelly as well as the aforementioned physical ones.

His footwork was nowhere near up to speed, and his basic jab-jab-right hand strategy that worked so well against everyone before Hopkins was made to look basic by Bernard the master tactician. After the fight Bernard made an interesting point that Kelly had the tools to be great but that he was lacking the certain slickness that (in Bernard's words) black fighters possess. I don't like to use race when describing fighters, but Bernard does have a point, even though Hispanic fighters can be slick (JMM) and black fighters can brawl (Miranda).

I think Kelly should perhaps do a Ricky Hatton and team up with a new trainer (like a Floyd Mayweather) who can show him a few new tricks. I don't want to see Kelly (or Hatton for that matter) all of a sudden trying to shoulder roll and shoe shine, but if Kelly's fight against Hopkins showed one thing to me it's that Pavlik (and Jack Lowe) do not know everything about boxing and, in actual fact, are glaringly weak in some areas like footwork, head movement and the general black 'slickness' that Bernard spoke of after the fight.

In saying all that, I believe that Kelly will get back down to 160 and destroy Rubio next time out and will probabbly have too much for Abraham as well if the German has the balls to get in the ring with him.

In response to your question, I don't think Bernard ruined Kelly. He gave him plenty to think about, but I think that will actually (hopefully) make him better in the long run. Don't know if you've read this, but here is a great article by Thomas Hauser of secondsout.com about the Hopkins/Pavlik fight. I posted the link immediately after the fight, but here it is again if you didn't read it:-

Boxing - Columns - Thomas Hauser

I think Pavlik has in his favour that he was beaten by a guy almost universally acknowledged as an ATG, and a guy who some people had beating Joe Calzaghe earlier in the year. Also as has been said it was above the weight he normally fights at. So I think he can come back, especially with what Hopkins said to him afterwards, as long as he keeps his self-belief. Its in stark contrast to Cotto, who was beaten into submission by a technically weaker fighter at his preferred weight. Although I don't want to set off the Cotto fanbase with that :-X

I know B-Hop said he just needed to bend his knees & get some decent footwork (and he obviously knows more than me) but to me he just won't be able to do that, because he's spent half his life training as a flat-footed fighter & keeps his legs too far apart for it to work effectively. Also that's a decent article above, Hauser is by far my favourite current boxing writer, even if on this one his facts aren't too straight & at times it seems he's towing the Pavlik line a bit much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greig

Kelly became my favourite fighter in 2007 when he ko'd Zertuche, Miranda and Taylor.

Against Hopkins he was up against someone who was 10 pounds heavier than he was and Pavlik was also suffering from bronchitis. That said, Hopkins exposed some glaring technical deficiencies in Kelly as well as the aforementioned physical ones.

His footwork was nowhere near up to speed, and his basic jab-jab-right hand strategy that worked so well against everyone before Hopkins was made to look basic by Bernard the master tactician. After the fight Bernard made an interesting point that Kelly had the tools to be great but that he was lacking the certain slickness that (in Bernard's words) black fighters possess. I don't like to use race when describing fighters, but Bernard does have a point, even though Hispanic fighters can be slick (JMM) and black fighters can brawl (Miranda).

I think Kelly should perhaps do a Ricky Hatton and team up with a new trainer (like a Floyd Mayweather) who can show him a few new tricks. I don't want to see Kelly (or Hatton for that matter) all of a sudden trying to shoulder roll and shoe shine, but if Kelly's fight against Hopkins showed one thing to me it's that Pavlik (and Jack Lowe) do not know everything about boxing and, in actual fact, are glaringly weak in some areas like footwork, head movement and the general black 'slickness' that Bernard spoke of after the fight.

In saying all that, I believe that Kelly will get back down to 160 and destroy Rubio next time out and will probabbly have too much for Abraham as well if the German has the balls to get in the ring with him.

In response to your question, I don't think Bernard ruined Kelly. He gave him plenty to think about, but I think that will actually (hopefully) make him better in the long run. Don't know if you've read this, but here is a great article by Thomas Hauser of secondsout.com about the Hopkins/Pavlik fight. I posted the link immediately after the fight, but here it is again if you didn't read it:-

Boxing - Columns - Thomas Hauser

---

As a little add on about that article I must make sure never to trust Jack Loew or Kelly Pavlik if I'm planning to gamble on a fighter. Shit, I'll give them a bye on Oscar-Pac, but Jack Loew thinking Floyd Sr would mess Hatton up giving Malignaggi victory??

I think its going to be a long road back for Pavlik.Way to early to count him out,he was fighting a legend in there and wrongfully sold himself on his own press clippings.Not everything boils down to pressure power and it was a lesson taught to him emphatically and revealingly.I think movement is his Achilles heel and he has to constantly reset to deliver hard shots.In the Taylor rematch he was being walked off the ropes,led by Taylor at times and Hopkins took it to an entirely higher level.

Pavlik is young,powerful,has a following and backing & promotion.Championships intact and ultimately he can and should have learned ALOT from his loss to Hopkins.He has to remain grounded,It happened,he lost,todays a new day...move on.I just don't know if he has the athleticism to adapt alot of technique/added leg work and should not tear down his house to put on a new roof(?).Needs head movement desperately.He needs to regain confidence in a big way,and for shite sake let the hands go....his next up with a decent but beatable fighter in Marco A. Rubio can get him there.

Pavlik, his trainer, and promoter thought Pavlik was unstoppable....

His promoter saw Hopkins as "the only option to make a buck"

His trainer and Pavlik both said they would KO Hopkins and once they hit him with some power shots that will be the end of Hopkins.....

I thought Pavlik would win a close ugly fight on points but I didnt believe there would be any way he would KO Hopkins....who is way to slick a fighter for a plodding heavy handed fighter like pavlik...

I think the fight was a HUGE rude awakening and if they hadnt fought Hopkins, Abraham would have exposed Pavlik's limited style.....

I think Pavlik needs to make some serious adjustments and maybe consider a trainer that has more experience or he may have a somewhat short lived career....He has shown a shaky chin and isnt real defense oriented...

If Pavlik doesnt make some adjustments Abraham is going to eat him up....I would predict a round 7 KO for AA who seems to have an iron chin (well the screws holding it together are steel).

Thomas Hauser writes a good unbiased article, insightfull and well thought out.

I think Kelly will be allright when he returns to action, he was just out boxed and under the weather due to a bug, he can rationalise his loss in his head, at least he knows why he under performed. If I were him I would stay away AA for a while you dont want another boxing lesson yet as that would play with his head. Maybe he needs a new trainer to fire him up and show him better boxing skils.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

I think its going to be a long road back for Pavlik.Way to early to count him out,he was fighting a legend in there and wrongfully sold himself on his own press clippings.Not everything boils down to pressure power and it was a lesson taught to him emphatically and revealingly.I think movement is his Achilles heel and he has to constantly reset to deliver hard shots.In the Taylor rematch he was being walked off the ropes,led by Taylor at times and Hopkins took it to an entirely higher level.

Pavlik is young,powerful,has a following and backing & promotion.Championships intact and ultimately he can and should have learned ALOT from his loss to Hopkins.He has to remain grounded,It happened,he lost,todays a new day...move on.I just don't know if he has the athleticism to adapt alot of technique/added leg work and should not tear down his house to put on a new roof(?).Needs head movement desperately.He needs to regain confidence in a big way,and for shite sake let the hands go....his next up with a decent but beatable fighter in Marco A. Rubio can get him there.

---

Yeah there is alot to learn. After the 2nd Taylor fight he looked like a threat to Joe and we didnt realise he had all these weaknesses. Hopkins really exposed him badly . A lucky punch KO loss may have only riased question marks about his chin but after that 1 sided schooling everyone is questioning his desire, skill, boxing ability, speed, footwork etc.

A trainer like Mayweather would open his mind up to a whole new way of boxing like what happend with Hatton . Pav seems so one dimensional that he may get a new lease of life if he saw the slick movement and countering skills that have turned fighters round. Barrera changed from a brawler to a slick counter puncher. Not sure Pav has the same talent but who would have though Guzman could change too cuz when he 1st started he was a mini Tyson .

I don't see a serious negative impact on Pavlik. He's basically a good left right one two sort of fighter, a fundamentals guy, so it's not as if there's a lot that could go wrong. The fact that Pavlik and his team are full of excuses for the loss tell me his confidence shouldn't be too badly hit.

it was good of hopkins to have a chat with him afterwards as well, he was giving him some really good advice but kelly just looked miles away so i dont know wether he took any of it on board. to me kelly just looked miles away all night. dont get me wrong, hopkins was fantastic, but pavlik wasnt himself that night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pavlikfan

it was good of hopkins to have a chat with him afterwards as well, he was giving him some really good advice but kelly just looked miles away so i dont know wether he took any of it on board. to me kelly just looked miles away all night. dont get me wrong, hopkins was fantastic, but pavlik wasnt himself that night.

---

yeah, I was wondering what was going through Pavlik's mind during Hopkins extended pep talk. My guess is Pavlik was thinking to himself: "Shut up and leave me alone, you pompous git, gimme another shot and I'll knock your block off"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pavlikfan

it was good of hopkins to have a chat with him afterwards as well, he was giving him some really good advice but kelly just looked miles away so i dont know wether he took any of it on board. to me kelly just looked miles away all night. dont get me wrong, hopkins was fantastic, but pavlik wasnt himself that night.

---

yeah, I was wondering what was going through Pavlik's mind during Hopkins extended pep talk. My guess is Pavlik was thinking to himself: "Shut up and leave me alone, you pompous git, gimme another shot and I'll knock your block off"

---

I think a rematch was the last thing he was thinking about!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littlebif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pavlikfan

it was good of hopkins to have a chat with him afterwards as well, he was giving him some really good advice but kelly just looked miles away so i dont know wether he took any of it on board. to me kelly just looked miles away all night. dont get me wrong, hopkins was fantastic, but pavlik wasnt himself that night.

---

yeah, I was wondering what was going through Pavlik's mind during Hopkins extended pep talk. My guess is Pavlik was thinking to himself: "Shut up and leave me alone, you pompous git, gimme another shot and I'll knock your block off"

---

I think a rematch was the last thing he was thinking about!

---

perhaps you are right. As for the extended pep talk, I'm sure he wasn't in the mood for that either. I'm a big Hopkins fan, but I thought the pep talk maybe was just a little bit condescending. No big deal though.

I think maybe it could of revived his fire, He was sort of cocky before the fight....Maybe that open his eyes and he is training even harder now.

Before the Hopkins fight he would be on myspace alot( a few times a day) , Now he might get on once a month. So I think that fight will make him even better... No shame in losing to a HOF.

It back fired big time on team Pavlik thinking that when they do a job on Hopkins,Calzaghe will have to fight Kelly.Hopkins had other plans though;D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littlebif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

yeah, I was wondering what was going through Pavlik's mind during Hopkins extended pep talk. My guess is Pavlik was thinking to himself: "Shut up and leave me alone, you pompous git, gimme another shot and I'll knock your block off"

---

I think a rematch was the last thing he was thinking about!

---

perhaps you are right. As for the extended pep talk, I'm sure he wasn't in the mood for that either. I'm a big Hopkins fan, but I thought the pep talk maybe was just a little bit condescending. No big deal though.

---

Yeah,Hopkins never lacks in tude.He sort of makes it about himself.Ecspecially the "come find you with a ballbat" portion.wtf?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littlebif

I think a rematch was the last thing he was thinking about!

---

perhaps you are right. As for the extended pep talk, I'm sure he wasn't in the mood for that either. I'm a big Hopkins fan, but I thought the pep talk maybe was just a little bit condescending. No big deal though.

---

Yeah,Hopkins never lacks in tude.He sort of makes it about himself.Ecspecially the "come find you with a ballbat" portion.wtf?

---

in footage of pavlik back in his changing room after the fight he seems really pissed that he lost to hopkins when taylor had beaten hopkins twice and he had beaten taylor twice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phil

I think mentally it did him alot of damage, but I think if he gets a couple of wins under his belt he'll be back to normal. I think his next fight will tell us alot about where he is...

---

Absolutely. His next fight is an important one!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pavlikfan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs 'Nawlins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CGM

perhaps you are right. As for the extended pep talk, I'm sure he wasn't in the mood for that either. I'm a big Hopkins fan, but I thought the pep talk maybe was just a little bit condescending. No big deal though.

---

Yeah,Hopkins never lacks in tude.He sort of makes it about himself.Ecspecially the "come find you with a ballbat" portion.wtf?

---

in footage of pavlik back in his changing room after the fight he seems really pissed that he lost to hopkins when taylor had beaten hopkins twice and he had beaten taylor twice.

---

It's the classic "triangle theory." I don't know why people even believe there is truth to this?! It should never be in the conversation when discussing a fight IMO.

I hate to say it, but Pavlik would be way better off if he would bring in another trainer to supplement Jack Loew. I don't think he can fire him, but Jack needs to take a more secondary roll. Kelly shouldn't change who is is fundementally, but he needs to make his offense a little more sophisticated and less predictable. Even a fighter with great natural speed like Hatton was out of luck because he was too predictable when he was up a against a smart fighter with equal physical talent. Pavlik needs to learn to set traps and counterpunch to compliment his pressure. He doesn't need to become James Toney, but he does need to develop an effective Plan B.

I know this would never happen, but how great would it be for Hopkins do a Rocky III Apollo Creed move and go into camp with Pavlik? Or have Pavlik go work spare a few hundred rounds with James Toney?

He needs to think outside the box a little and become a little more well rounded. I think he can come back mentally, but he needs to make sure Jack Loew doesn't because hinderance to his progress.

All I can remember is, I won big time during that fight by picking on Hopkins. Almost everybody picked Pavlik and I went against the favorite.;D

SEriously, Pavlik has a long way to go but that fight with Hopkins showed to the world that he can be beaten. That will make his future fights more interesting. IMO.

That defeat was good for Pavlik...:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brucelee

All I can remember is, I won big time during that fight by picking on Hopkins. Almost everybody picked Pavlik and I went against the favorite.;D

SEriously, Pavlik has a long way to go but that fight with Hopkins showed to the world that he can be beaten. That will make his future fights more interesting. IMO.

That defeat was good for Pavlik...:cool:

---

I disagree i think that defeat will dent his confidence and if he is in a similar situation again he will think back to that lose to Hopkins and get stuck in the same gear again.

I like Pavlik quite a bit,but if I was a major fan of Pavlik,Id worry. Hopkins has a way of ruining his opponents even if he "loses".
Nobody looks %100 right after Hopkins,Trinidad,Taylor,Tarver,DLH.all looked off after B-hop. Lord knows Ive watched his fights enough,I cant tell you what it is,but something about him turns lions in to church mice.
I hope this doesnt happen to Pavlik,he's a fun fighter to watch,but history says it might.

I hope is doesnt,it could take a while to get his confidence back though which will make for a few closer fights imo.