How weak is the heavyweight division really?

I know we are told constantly what a pitiful division the heavyweight division is and how totally weak and ordinary it is.

But is it really as bad as people say?

Is Wladmir Klitshcko for example a worse champion than for example Kendall Holt, Steven Lueveno, Chad Dawson, Mikell Kessler, Tomasz Adamek, Nate Campbell etc?

What about Vitali Klitschko?

I actually think if these two were in any division other than the heavyweights people would rate them much higher, Wlad in particular would likely be on the p4p rankings for his continued dominance.

Then we have David Haye. Consider the fuss that was made about a no skills brawler like Michael Katsidis and how added to the lightweight divsion, is not Haye an exciting talent at heavyweight?

Then we have promising prospects like amatuer world champ Odlanier Solis, Alexander Povetkin and solid fighters like Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers etc.

Ok it's hardly stacked but I think the likes of both Klitschko's, Haye, Chagaev, Solis and Chambers would rise to the top of pretty much any weight class there were in.

All I'm saying is it's not nearly so bad as people claim.

Yes there is some awful dross in there, but there are 4 or 5 world class fighters in the division that certainly match up to the world champs in many of boxings lower divisions.

Your views?

I'd say pretty weak some fighters are talented but there too lazy to train, the fights are boring and alot of the fights for me aren't very skilled affairs. Most of the Heavyweight fights consist of hugging/mauling certainly not what i would call skill.

And it doesn't help that the best Heavyweight in the world isn't fan friendly either, it also speaks volumes that two former Middleweights in the last year. Have had a crack at the Heavyweights, would that have happened years ago ? no way.

There is a few upcoming Heavyweight talents but overall the Heavyweight division, is probably the weakest its been since the 80s, but atleast in the 80s you had skilled Heavyweights. Although they threw there career down the toilet.

But i would put money on the lost talent of the 80s Greg Page, Tony Tubbs, Tim Witherspoon, Tony Tucker, ETC. Beating most of the Heavyweights today. Infact i'd think they would all own a piece of the Heavyweight title.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I know we are told constantly what a pitiful division the heavyweight division is and how totally weak and ordinary it is.

But is it really as bad as people say?

Is Wladmir Klitshcko for example a worse champion than for example Kendall Holt, Steven Lueveno, Chad Dawson, Mikell Kessler, Tomasz Adamek, Nate Campbell etc?

What about Vitali Klitschko?

I actually think if these two were in any division other than the heavyweights people would rate them much higher, Wlad in particular would likely be on the p4p rankings for his continued dominance.

Then we have David Haye. Consider the fuss that was made about a no skills brawler like Michael Katsidis and how added to the lightweight divsion, is not Haye an exciting talent at heavyweight?

Then we have promising prospects like amatuer world champ Odlanier Solis, Alexander Povetkin and solid fighters like Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers etc.

Ok it's hardly stacked but I think the likes of both Klitschko's, Haye, Chagaev, Solis and Chambers would rise to the top of pretty much any weight class there were in.

All I'm saying is it's not nearly so bad as people claim.

Yes there is some awful dross in there, but there are 4 or 5 world class fighters in the division that certainly match up to the world champs in many of boxings lower divisions.

Your views?

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The two I've highlighted are those who I think ARE better champs than Wlad, although there are others there who you could make an argument for.

Personally I don't think that it's that the Klitschkos themselves are shit, I think they are both incredibly talented, I think it's just that for the past five years roughly, there has not really been any credible challengers to them. Honestly, they've really fought some pretty ordinary and/or faded former contenders, and I think this stops them getting the credit they deserve.

However, there are starting to be some credible challengers & I think Haye & Arreola at least offer the HW division the chance to have some loud personalities back in it. Haye on his own has already generated a surge more interest by virtue of being the CW champ & his own brand of personality that I know you are so fond of Bilbo ;)

I think there is some talent, but it seems that the few talented fighters dont train properly or stay busy enough. Guys like Chagaev or Arreola could be better than they are. I look at a guy like Juan Carlos Gomez, and he has a lot of talent, probably the most in the division but he only fought once last year and hes 35. Just the fact that conteders and champions from the mid 90s even 80s are still highly ranked fighters I think speaks volumes. Also some of the undefeated "prospects" pad their records and never step up the competition. As far as dominance and consistency goes, Wlad is the only dominant heayweight right now. There are few heavyweights that I feel are fighting at their potential like Eddie Chambers, Alex Povetkin and I guess they deserve credit. As a whole though, yes it is a weak division.

I dont think the heavyweight division is any weaker than it was when Lennox Lewis was Champion....Everyone likes to talk about how weak the division is and how bad the champs are now.....I remember everyone saying the same thing when Lennox was the champ and I hear people say Tyson was overrated because he never really faced a great figher...yadda...yadda..yadda.....So who actually was a hall of fame heavy weight in their prime facing other hall of fame heavyweights in their prime???? (maybe Ali, Foreman was the last one???)

Lennox wasnt recognized as a great fighter til he retired and 5 years down the road people will be talking about the good old days when the brothers Klitchskos were lining them up and knocking them out....

People always look for a reason to complain about something....We are seeing something that has never been done before, two brothers at the top of the division (and to top it off knocking people out), take some time and enjoy, trust me, they wont be there forever.....

So hitting backspace while reviewing a post deletes it ??? Wasn't all that positive anyway:-X.But I miss the mid 90's....now those were some "what if" match ups.

In comparison with the top divisions in boxing today, the heavyweights are weak. And if there really ARE good prospects out there, let's see some match-making to get some of these prospects to face each other.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I know we are told constantly what a pitiful division the heavyweight division is and how totally weak and ordinary it is.

But is it really as bad as people say?

Is Wladmir Klitshcko for example a worse champion than for example Kendall Holt, Steven Lueveno, Chad Dawson, Mikell Kessler, Tomasz Adamek, Nate Campbell etc?

What about Vitali Klitschko?

I actually think if these two were in any division other than the heavyweights people would rate them much higher, Wlad in particular would likely be on the p4p rankings for his continued dominance.

Then we have David Haye. Consider the fuss that was made about a no skills brawler like Michael Katsidis and how added to the lightweight divsion, is not Haye an exciting talent at heavyweight?

Then we have promising prospects like amatuer world champ Odlanier Solis, Alexander Povetkin and solid fighters like Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers etc.

Ok it's hardly stacked but I think the likes of both Klitschko's, Haye, Chagaev, Solis and Chambers would rise to the top of pretty much any weight class there were in.

All I'm saying is it's not nearly so bad as people claim.

Yes there is some awful dross in there, but there are 4 or 5 world class fighters in the division that certainly match up to the world champs in many of boxings lower divisions.

Your views?

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I really don't believe that. I don't think Wladimir Klitschko, a one dimensional fighter with only the outsitde game to work with would rise to the top of ever division he was in. Chagaev? Chagaev is nothing special at all really he is not half the P4P talent that half th eother guys who are top 5 in their division are.

Seriously, the heavyweight division is the ONLY division where I can watch of yesteryear and pretty much assure myself, yeah, these guys would kick the guys of today's ass. Could anyone say with any sort of definity that the 1985 super bowl shuffle Bears would kick the 2007 Giants ass? No, because the speed and athleticism has increased.

WTF is Wlad good for on the inside? I took notes on the Rahman fight he was holding ever time on the inside until the very end where he was actually setting up punches on the inside. He would not be able to fuck with half the heavyweight champions of years past imo, that's no faul,t ot Wlad he is the best heavyweight of today, undisputed. But other then that, yeah the heavyweights of today are just as bad. Is there any sort of Lamont Peterson, Ty Barnett, Victor Ortiz for the heavyweights? Hell no. Do we want to compare the overall skill levels of Wlad vs Nate Campbell? No we don't.

Tyson fought in the weakest era in boxing history. When he finally fought 2 good fighters he was KTFO. Don't get it twisted, the late 80's early 90's HW was much weaker than it is today.

Twice as strong as it was this time lasy year! And as for the late eighties it was stronger than todays IMO You had people like Witherspoon, Tyson, Bonecrusher Smith, Bruno, Holyfield was moving up, Lennox had just won the olympics. Personally I think the late eighties was slightly better than todays lot. Not much but slightly!

The real problem for HW boxing is that casual fans and the man in the street dont know who the world champion is,so they lose interest.


In times gone by when the HW division has been weak the champ has still been a house hold name.

Multy world champions at the same weight is killing boxing IMO.

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Originally Posted by porkypara

The real problem for HW boxing is that casual fans and the man in the street dont know who the world champion is,so they lose interest.


In times gone by when the HW division has been weak the champ has still been a house hold name.

Multy world champions at the same weight is killing boxing IMO.

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I totally agree. Boxing needs someone like David Haye who is young and marketable to become undisputed heavyweight champ and boxing will be big news again and the heavyweight champion will again be THE elite man in all sports!

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Originally Posted by rjj tszyu

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Originally Posted by porkypara

The real problem for HW boxing is that casual fans and the man in the street dont know who the world champion is,so they lose interest.


In times gone by when the HW division has been weak the champ has still been a house hold name.

Multy world champions at the same weight is killing boxing IMO.

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I totally agree. Boxing needs someone like David Haye who is young and marketable to become undisputed heavyweight champ and boxing will be big news again and the heavyweight champion will again be THE elite man in all sports!

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The HW title used to be the greatest prize in sports now its been split more ways than a birthday cake.

Boxing has got to be the only major sport in the world where the so called governing bodies actualy make the sport worse and make less people watch it.

The saddest thing of all is that the geaeral public still love a good boxing match,its just they dont understand who the champs are any more and are totaly confused to the point they dont care.

Weak. Very weak.:p
specially with the "Jab you to death brothers";D

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I know we are told constantly what a pitiful division the heavyweight division is and how totally weak and ordinary it is.

But is it really as bad as people say?

Is Wladmir Klitshcko for example a worse champion than for example Kendall Holt, Steven Lueveno, Chad Dawson, Mikell Kessler, Tomasz Adamek, Nate Campbell etc?

What about Vitali Klitschko?

I actually think if these two were in any division other than the heavyweights people would rate them much higher, Wlad in particular would likely be on the p4p rankings for his continued dominance.

Then we have David Haye. Consider the fuss that was made about a no skills brawler like Michael Katsidis and how added to the lightweight divsion, is not Haye an exciting talent at heavyweight?

Then we have promising prospects like amatuer world champ Odlanier Solis, Alexander Povetkin and solid fighters like Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers etc.

Ok it's hardly stacked but I think the likes of both Klitschko's, Haye, Chagaev, Solis and Chambers would rise to the top of pretty much any weight class there were in.

All I'm saying is it's not nearly so bad as people claim.

Yes there is some awful dross in there, but there are 4 or 5 world class fighters in the division that certainly match up to the world champs in many of boxings lower divisions.

Your views?

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The problem is that the fights are not exciting. Wlad vs. Sultan is case in point. 2 world champions willing to put on a bore fest with neither willing to commit to actually fighting. What people want to see is a fighter going for a devastating knockout. What we have is a man like Wlad who could have finished off Sultan, being too afraid of being knocked out himself that he opted to jab his way to victory. If you have no killer instinct, people don't want to watch you.

I don't think its weak at all, I think its stronger than the division Marciano and Larry Holmes plowed through, I don't think guys like Samuel Peter, Povetchkin, Ibragimov, Brock, Witherspoon, Chambers, etc, etc would do that poorly in the 80's. Even in the 90's they would be third tier guys who would be a step up before the real step ups like Mercer. I see Wlad at his best in the second tier or the top tier on a really good night, and Vitalit would be one of the best fighters in any heavyweight era, so big, athletic, powerful, etc. I think he gives anyone a ton of trouble.

It's no weaker than normal...people just like complaining about it. It's inconsistent but that's normal.

I think it has improved over the last few years. I think having some definate fresh talent coming up in Haye and Arreola who can both bring some action to the division. And Solis that can box. There is hope we just need to get another layer of quality fighters to emerge at HW in '09 and we'll have a solid division again.

The division isnt really weak,but the advent of the Superheavyweights,and that plodding eastern european style has made it very boring to watch. Its obviously effective,look who the champs are,but its no fun to watch

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Originally Posted by porkypara

The real problem for HW boxing is that casual fans and the man in the street dont know who the world champion is,so they lose interest.


In times gone by when the HW division has been weak the champ has still been a house hold name.

Multy world champions at the same weight is killing boxing IMO.

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This is a good post.

I don't think the heavyweight division is necessarily that much weaker than it has been in the past, but the champions aren't super exciting and don't have controversial, controversial, or exciting attitudes. Heavyweight champs of yesteryear were better entertainers than the current champions. In that respect, Arreola and Haye are quality entertainers, but the jury is out on whether they match the entertainment value with skills.

Of course, this is not a judgment on the talent of the Klitschko brothers - they would be top quality heavyweights at anytime in history.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think its weak at all, I think its stronger than the division Marciano and Larry Holmes plowed through, I don't think guys like Samuel Peter, Povetchkin, Ibragimov, Brock, Witherspoon, Chambers, etc, etc would do that poorly in the 80's. Even in the 90's they would be third tier guys who would be a step up before the real step ups like Mercer. I see Wlad at his best in the second tier or the top tier on a really good night, and Vitalit would be one of the best fighters in any heavyweight era, so big, athletic, powerful, etc. I think he gives anyone a ton of trouble.

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Marciano's wasn't the best, but I think you underestime the Holmes era. IMO there was a lot of good exciting fights during Holmes reign. Holmes really had to work for a lot of his victories.

As for modern day, when was the last time you saw an exciting heavyweight battle? Lewis-Klitschko? As far as I can recall, there really hasn't been anyone to challenge the Klitschkos, though I guess Wlad - Brewster I wasn't bad. I suppose Ibragimov wasn't too bad, but he was hardly a challenge for Wlad. We'll see what Haye brings I guess.

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I don't think its weak at all, I think its stronger than the division Marciano and Larry Holmes plowed through, I don't think guys like Samuel Peter, Povetchkin, Ibragimov, Brock, Witherspoon, Chambers, etc, etc would do that poorly in the 80's. Even in the 90's they would be third tier guys who would be a step up before the real step ups like Mercer. I see Wlad at his best in the second tier or the top tier on a really good night, and Vitalit would be one of the best fighters in any heavyweight era, so big, athletic, powerful, etc. I think he gives anyone a ton of trouble.

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Marciano's wasn't the best, but I think you underestime the Holmes era. IMO there was a lot of good exciting fights during Holmes reign. Holmes really had to work for a lot of his victories.

As for modern day, when was the last time you saw an exciting heavyweight battle? Lewis-Klitschko? As far as I can recall, there really hasn't been anyone to challenge the Klitschkos, though I guess Wlad - Brewster I wasn't bad. I suppose Ibragimov wasn't too bad, but he was hardly a challenge for Wlad. We'll see what Haye brings I guess.

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True point,all through Holmes spent his entire career,with the next big thing waiting aroung the corner. There was allways a next big prospect that was going to dethrone him

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I know we are told constantly what a pitiful division the heavyweight division is and how totally weak and ordinary it is.

But is it really as bad as people say?

Is Wladmir Klitshcko for example a worse champion than for example Kendall Holt, Steven Lueveno, Chad Dawson, Mikell Kessler, Tomasz Adamek, Nate Campbell etc?

What about Vitali Klitschko?

I actually think if these two were in any division other than the heavyweights people would rate them much higher, Wlad in particular would likely be on the p4p rankings for his continued dominance.

Then we have David Haye. Consider the fuss that was made about a no skills brawler like Michael Katsidis and how added to the lightweight divsion, is not Haye an exciting talent at heavyweight?

Then we have promising prospects like amatuer world champ Odlanier Solis, Alexander Povetkin and solid fighters like Ruslan Chagaev, Eddie Chambers etc.

Ok it's hardly stacked but I think the likes of both Klitschko's, Haye, Chagaev, Solis and Chambers would rise to the top of pretty much any weight class there were in.

All I'm saying is it's not nearly so bad as people claim.

Yes there is some awful dross in there, but there are 4 or 5 world class fighters in the division that certainly match up to the world champs in many of boxings lower divisions.

Your views?

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Eddie Chambers needs to drop down to light heavy, Calvin Brock to Cruiser, but you do have a point. The Klitschkos are/can be as dominant a champion as anyone in any other division and that's not because the division is talent poor. Despite my distaste for his antics, David Haye is a force to be reckoned with. Nikolay Valuev is going to be a problem for whomever he steps in the ring against, Povetkin is a bighearted, yet talent or skill anemic (I'm not sure which yet) and there are others like Tony Thompson who, despite just losing, are still a threat. The problem comes from fighters like Holyfield and Toney who still fight on despite their respective advanced age and poor physical conditioning. Both of them should be dominated thoroughly, but when you have a division that doesn't have a cap you can have a tubby eat his way to it and a senior citizen who became a weightlifting maniac to get there. They are the flagship for what's wrong with heavyweight. In any other division if you come in without making weight you don't fight or you get fined. Essentially fighters who do this in lower weight classes get their act together or retire. The big boys just sign a paycheck with grease-soaked fingers. They don't HAVE to get in shape to have a fight.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

The division isnt really weak,but the advent of the Superheavyweights,and that plodding eastern european style has made it very boring to watch. Its obviously effective,look who the champs are,but its no fun to watch

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This my feeling as well. I think guys like Wlad, Vitali, and even Chagaev would give the top guys of yesteryear a tough fight and may even win just based on their sheer size and technical ability. I mean, someone like Joe Frazier, for instance, probably would never win a title today simply because he wouldn't have the size to compete. But the bigger guys are slower and more tactical, so you don't see much combination punching anymore, thus fights aren't very exciting.

1800s 1900s :pis2:2000s

For me it's not so much the division as much as it is the crappy fights they put together with the amount of talent they do have. There are fights to be made but as long as rahman and thompson and these other guys are involved in these "big" fights it makes the division look like crap. The klitch's are barely breaking a sweat these days, just as much thier fault as the bums they've been beating i guess.

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Originally Posted by Mar

For me it's not so much the division as much as it is the crappy fights they put together with the amount of talent they do have. There are fights to be made but as long as rahman and thompson and these other guys are involved in these "big" fights it makes the division look like crap. The klitch's are barely breaking a sweat these days, just as much thier fault as the bums they've been beating i guess.

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I agree with the Obama part of your text.;D

90s - you have Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson... you have david Tua, Andrew Golota... even the likes of Bruno, Mcall etc... skilled, exciting and entertaining... they actually got in the ring with each and when they did they weren't holding each other or circling around for most of the round with their arm stuck out to minimize the amount of exchanges

Even contenders like Rahman etc could beat most of the bunch today, proven by the fact that he's not exactly near his peak yet he's still a name

try and put together a bunch from today to rival the few 90s HWs I listed.

Even their characters are boring... nobody cares about them...

If you lived through the seventies, eighties, and nineties, and onwards, you might be a hard sell as to bite into the present crop of the heavyweight division as not being weak.

Likewise, boxing is really missing in talent when a Ted Atlas would lament, and mouth words to the effect that... if boxing is exciting enough, then viewership will be at a maximum. If boxing is at a maximum then the possibility of the Lebron Jameses, choosing boxing over basketball or any other sport for that matter. Is it exciting enough? The very impressionable youth of today always gravitate to the "exciting".

If and when there is that possibility, there is that probability, then boxing may have saved itself.

In hindsight any era can be exciting...people can look back at Lennox Lewis vs Ray Mercer and "oooooo" and "aaaaah" but totally forget that Ray Mercer drew with Marion Wilson and lost to an ancient Larry Holmes before he even fought Lennox who he damn near beat.......we can also look at Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman and think "Well they had to be pretty good to beat Lennox Lewis" and not ever once stop and think about how McCall was just a club fighter with no boxing skill and 5 losses before the shocking KO of Lewis and how Rahman has ALWAYS been a protected heavyweight.

We can look back to Larry Holmes "battles" with Renoldo Snipes and Tim Witherspoon and never once think "You know Witherspoon and Snipes weren't ready for title shots when they fought Holmes" and still think that Larry is so great to get laid out a couple times by guys who didn't even have 25 pro fights under their belts when he was AT HIS PEAK!

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Originally Posted by Lyle

In hindsight any era can be exciting...people can look back at Lennox Lewis vs Ray Mercer and "oooooo" and "aaaaah" but totally forget that Ray Mercer drew with Marion Wilson and lost to an ancient Larry Holmes before he even fought Lennox who he damn near beat.......we can also look at Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman and think "Well they had to be pretty good to beat Lennox Lewis" and not ever once stop and think about how McCall was just a club fighter with no boxing skill and 5 losses before the shocking KO of Lewis and how Rahman has ALWAYS been a protected heavyweight.

We can look back to Larry Holmes "battles" with Renoldo Snipes and Tim Witherspoon and never once think "You know Witherspoon and Snipes weren't ready for title shots when they fought Holmes" and still think that Larry is so great to get laid out a couple times by guys who didn't even have 25 pro fights under their belts when he was AT HIS PEAK!

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Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

The weakness of the heavyweight division today is on par with a senior citizens' lack of bowel control......

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Originally Posted by CGM

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Originally Posted by Lyle

In hindsight any era can be exciting...people can look back at Lennox Lewis vs Ray Mercer and "oooooo" and "aaaaah" but totally forget that Ray Mercer drew with Marion Wilson and lost to an ancient Larry Holmes before he even fought Lennox who he damn near beat.......we can also look at Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman and think "Well they had to be pretty good to beat Lennox Lewis" and not ever once stop and think about how McCall was just a club fighter with no boxing skill and 5 losses before the shocking KO of Lewis and how Rahman has ALWAYS been a protected heavyweight.

We can look back to Larry Holmes "battles" with Renoldo Snipes and Tim Witherspoon and never once think "You know Witherspoon and Snipes weren't ready for title shots when they fought Holmes" and still think that Larry is so great to get laid out a couple times by guys who didn't even have 25 pro fights under their belts when he was AT HIS PEAK!

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Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

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Snipes,two time Gold Gloves Champion
Witherspoon beat Snipes,and sparred with Ali
Carl Williams also a 2 time NY Gold Gloves winner
These arent exactly nobodies

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Originally Posted by CGM

Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

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Renaldo Snipes 22-0-0....biggest fight before Holmes, split decision wins over Gerrie Coetzee and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad

Tim Witherspoon 15-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, he got a majority decision vs Snipes

Carl Williams 16-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD over James Tillis

Marvis Frazier 10-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD vs Joe Bunger

Ossie Ocasio 13-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a SD and UD vs Jimmy Young.

Imagine someone with under 20 fights getting a title shot with Wladimir, he already gets enough crap as it is.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Snipes,two time Gold Gloves Champion
Witherspoon beat Snipes,and sparred with Ali
Carl Williams also a 2 time NY Gold Gloves winner
These arent exactly nobodies

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I'm not saying they were nobodies, I am just saying had they been more seasoned they might have done better vs Larry Holmes. When Mike Tyson finally fought Larry Holmes he had 32 fights under his belt.....when Michael Spinks fought Larry he had 27 fights.

And oddly enough those guys did better....call me crazy but I think they did well against Holmes because (not only was Holmes older at this time) but they had more experience

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by CGM

Guys like Snipes, Witherspoon, Carl Williams, et al were hardly green rookies. I base that on how well they performed in the ring at the time. And on how Holmes performed throughout his reign.

As for hindsight, well I ain't gonna try and argue about which of us is using that. :)

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Renaldo Snipes 22-0-0....biggest fight before Holmes, split decision wins over Gerrie Coetzee and Eddie Mustafa Muhammad

Tim Witherspoon 15-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, he got a majority decision vs Snipes

Carl Williams 16-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD over James Tillis

Marvis Frazier 10-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a UD vs Joe Bunger

Ossie Ocasio 13-0-0...biggest fight before Holmes, a SD and UD vs Jimmy Young.

Imagine someone with under 20 fights getting a title shot with Wladimir, he already gets enough crap as it is.

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Your post doesn't say prove a whole lot. Like I said, I basing my opinion on how they handled themelves in the ring against Holmes, not on their previous record.

But if you like, we can talk about the tough victories of Hasim Rahman, Tony Thompson, Sultan Ibragimov, Lamon Brewster, Ray Austin, Calvin Brock, 26 lb smaller Chris Byrd, Sam Peter, Not to mention Corrie Sanders, Jameel McCline, Charles Shufford, Francois Botha, and Derek Jefferson.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Snipes,two time Gold Gloves Champion
Witherspoon beat Snipes,and sparred with Ali
Carl Williams also a 2 time NY Gold Gloves winner
These arent exactly nobodies

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I'm not saying they were nobodies, I am just saying had they been more seasoned they might have done better vs Larry Holmes. When Mike Tyson finally fought Larry Holmes he had 32 fights under his belt.....when Michael Spinks fought Larry he had 27 fights.

And oddly enough those guys did better....call me crazy but I think they did well against Holmes because (not only was Holmes older at this time) but they had more experience

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You could also argue that Tim Witherspoon, Carl Williams, despite being green to the pro ranks. Arguably fought there best ever fight especially Tim Witherspoon, against Larry Holmes. Wouldn't you agree Lyle ?