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People these days are acting like Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, et al are just the greatest players ever and I am just here to tell everyone that those guys have a LOOOOOOONG way to go. You can name me any player playing right now and I could name maybe 5 guys playing the same position who did it better back in the day.
I give credit to Kobe and Lebron being the best we have right now but in now way shape or form are they as good as past stars!
Oh and just as an example recently Lebron James established a special stat, he now has 30 PPG vs the Milwaukee Bucks....the last guy to hold such a record (after a certain number of games played vs a team) was Michael Jordan..........and he averaged 30+ PPG vs 14 teams in the NBA, that also includes his comeback with the Wizards as well.
MJ has to be the exception though.. No one who has any wits is saying that Kobe or Lebron are better than MJ.. MJ is a smarter/faster Kobe with a better jumper.. Dude didn't miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Lebron is amazing because of his size. He's an absolute beast, the size of an NFL linebacker with a ridiculous amount of talent. He is dynamic because normally size mostly matters when you're a 4 or 5, not a 3.. With the exception of the above average in height point guard of Magic Johnson.
Anyone who thinks Kobe or Lebron are the best ever to play the game are probably younger kids growing up with these guys.. they don't know any better..
MJ was also a great TEAM player, he didn't have to do it all and the Bulls had some very good role players on those Championship teams but imagining what MJ would have done with Shaq, Gasol, Odom, even old Gary Payton and Karl Malone is amazing.....as Magic Johnson said "There is Michael Jordan and then there is everybody else" or maybe as Larry Bird said after MJ dropped a playoff record 63 on the 1986 Boston Celtics (a great team) "God disguised as Michael Jordan"
I would take any number of players over Lebron....sure he's a physical specimine but so were Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, both FAR BETTER than Lebron at any position 1-5.
Kobe and Lebron are great sure but they aren't as special as some of the LEGENDS. Those guys will become legends but to me they just do have the "IT" factor that most people want out of like Heavyweight boxing champions.....when Jordan, Magic, or Bird had to take a game over they saddled up and did it and there were times when they made it look awfully easy and this was waaaaaay long before the talent got diluted by The Bobcats, Raptors, Grizzlies, etc..
Kobe dropped 81 on the Toronto Raptors and people talk about it as if Michael Jordan could never do that or anyone else for that matter. Pete Maravich lit up the 1977 New York Knicks for 68 and that was without the benefit of a 3-point line!!!
I do see your point, but I think that basketball players are getting better in general. Also I think your views are bathed in nostalgia.
Players are no doubt benefitting from better training and advances in healthcare etc. but you can take the 2008 Olympic team and the 1992 Olympic team and bar Christian Lattner I would take anyone from the '92 team over anyone from the '08 teamQuote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Nostalgia or not the legends deserve their respect!
The NBA is by far the best its been in a long time. It has become IMO the best professional sports league, the quality of play is amazing. So many great players.
So, in reference to this post and the thread title, you are generally saying that the talent pool currently in the NBA is inferior to those times in the past, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
That's a tough assumption to make. I'm only 23, but i've watched the NBA since intellectually possible.. I remember the Jordan days and all of the Bulls fans at school etc.. It's tough to compare the generations.
I think that most of the hype comes from exactly what you previously stated. The whole persona thing. Lebron/Kobe are a great face for the NBA currently. Everyone knows who they are. The NBA is still a business, and in my opinion they're doing a great job.
The first person (i believe) to come into the NBA straight from high school, they tried to market the hell out of him. and it failed miserably. Without using google, tell me who you think it is.
But lebron on the other hand, among VARIOUS other real young players, have the marketability for my age group and younger. Which is why i think the NBA as a business is booming. When Lebron comes to play the Celtics, it's impossible to get a ticket. Everyone wants to see him throw the powder into the air at the scorers table and be a part of it. It's become more of a media machine than maybe the pure talent driven business it used to be. With that said, I don't think it's out of hand or that anything is really fabricated to hide anyone who isn't talented, it just has become a bit more mainstream and marketable.
is it Shawn Kemp?
negative. you're thinking too long ago. A hint would be that it happened in the last decade.. Actually, between the 2000 draft - present.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
EDIT: This at least proves that they failed at marketing him due to the fact that he never became a huge talent.. But you could at least see the direction the NBA was trying to move toward. Market the hell out of someone who may be a big star, and if it works.. dollar signs.
Yes the talent pool is diluted right now...the same thing can be said of baseball and football. It just goes to figure that if you add more teams you don't automatically get the talent to fill out the roster spots on those teams so back in the day you would get teams with legends like: Magic, Jabaar, Worthy or Bird, McHale, Parrish. Do you think that Milwaukee, Toronto, Charlotte, Memphis, Sacramento, the LA Clippers, and Oklahoma City have quality rosters? They have 1-3 quality players but all together they have nothing.
Sure Kobe, Lebron, D-Wade, and most importantly the Big 3 (a TEAM) have grown the game a little since The Depression Era (the Post MJ, Bird, Magic era) and it's better than that but to outright compare any of the current players to the legends in anything other than describing a playing style is ape shit crazy. People can say Kobe plays LIKE Jordan and I am fine with that but people saying Kobe is as good or better than Jordan are just out of their God damn minds!
I don't get your question about the high schooler who went pro...I know there have been high schoolers before who have gone pro and did very well without benefit of marketing Moses Malone and Darryl 'Chocolate Thunder' Dawkins (from the planet Lovetron) are two from way back that I can think of....but from 2000 on I am not sure, Kwame Brown maybe if you're thinking of a bust...Tracy McGrady if you're thinking of someone good.
What isn't there to get about the question? lol.. I just asked who the first person was that came out of high school and went to the NBA..Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
and it was Kwame.. I was referring to the new school faces (or attempted faces) of the NBA.. and that failed miserably.. This was all in reference mainly to your comparison of the "good" players today as the big time heavyweight personas like Tyson etc..
I think Wade, James and Kobe are all great players regardless of when they played. Better/Worse/Equal than Johnson, Bird etc? Hard to say. Regardless of sport I think it is very hard to compare any players from one generation to another. There is no questioning that NBA teams are not nearly as good as they used to be from top to bottom due to expansion and players having limited college experience. In regards to James specifically I'd be interested in what Jordan's stats were like at 24-25 compared to Lebron...regardless until Lebron starts hoisting championships it is hard to make a comparison at this point.
Well #1 Kwame wasn't the first person to go to the NBA straight from High School and #2 He wasn't the first person to fail in doing so....that honor belongs to Bill Willoughby (19th overall pick of the 1975 NBA draft) and his career ended at age 26.
One of the issues I have/had with the NBA was when so many high schoolers were going pro when they needed to be more developed.
Even great players like Kobe, KG, Lebron, and T-Mac needed a little time to adjust to the NBA.
Players like Jermaine O'Neil, Danny Granger, Al Harrington, Rashard Lewis, etc. needed several years to develop.
Meanwhile there are even more guys who didn't make it AT ALL...does the name Korleone Young ring any bells???
I think the better the NCAA players are then the better the NBA is...the more years you spend in college the more you develop talent (if you have a good coach) and the better you'll be in the NBA.
Let me put it this way Tyler Hansbrough stayed 4 years. He had the hustle and desire to maybe make an NBA team after his sophmore year but now he's better on defense, he can shoot from farther away, and he's just become an all-around better player....he won't set the world on fire when he makes it to the NBA but he's going to be a SOLID NBA player....he probably won't start very much throughout his career but the fundamentals he picked up from UNC will put him ahead of a lot of players who may have more physical tools than he does.
The NBA didn't just dilute their talent with expansion teams but with the bunches of high schoolers who came out to go pro. It was getting less like the true NBA and more like the And One All-Stars....a bunch of ball hogging, no defense playing, show boats....and hell I like flashy play and all but that selfish playing style does get old, especially when it hurts the fundamentals of the game.
Tyler Hans is a fag for not playing for Missouri.
Whatever, he picked the right school.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
And to think Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, and J.R. Smith were going to go to UNC had they not gone pro
you're right.. i was posting all day at work and was half paying attention.. originally i meant, who was the first #1 pick in the draft from high school to the NBA.. I just re-read everything and felt stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
there were plenty before kwame to go from high school to the nba.. tmac, kobe, KG etc..
my bad on that confusion..
tyler hansbrough will be a nobody in the NBA. Unless he develops a REALLY good mid-long range jumper, he will be ineffective.. He's a really strong player, physically, in college, but not in the NBA.. look at young guys who are sort of his stature that got drafted recently from college and play a similar role.. joakim noah, al horford maybe? horford is a beast and is doing well, but hansbrough is not as physical of a player as him even though they are similar in size.
I would say the NBA is a little bit more flashy then the old school fundamentals lately, but you're starting to blow it out of proportion.. There may be ball hogs and the like, here and there, but those aren't the teams that win championships.. Who are you kidding? That stuff is the least of the NBA worries, believe me. It's a business.. if you're not producing trying to showoff or what have you, you don't get paid.
This is a topic that depends on a player to player basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleWhatever, he picked the right school.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
And to think Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, and J.R. Smith were going to go to UNC had they not gone pro
While the majority of players who stop playing for their college team to make money in the NBA jump the gun, there are circumstances where it's the smart thing to do. If you have a huge year in college and the current draft class that will be entering the draft during the year isn't that talented, then you may want to enter the draft if you feel you will be a high #1 round pick.. It's all about the contracts and money..
Roy hibbert who had a great year for G'town in 2007 when they were in the final four had a lot of analysts saying he'd go high in the draft, but he elected to stay in college another year.. Unfortunately they didn't make it too far that year, which hurt his value in the draft. He still went in the first round but it was pretty clear he would've went higher the year before..
I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but it all comes down to money..
When you dont play ball for a team in your region of the country shows a character flaw in my opinion. Like people who don't like any animals.....I don't trust them.
It's cool, I was just confused about what you meant for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
Hansbrough won't be an All-Star but he's going to be a good role player. If Luke Walton, Troy Murphy, Brian Scalabrini et al can make it in the NBA then so can Psycho T. Hansbrough is an all-around player, he has just started developing his 3 point shot, he has a good normal range about 18-20 feet from the basket, he hits his free throws, he runs the floor extremely well, and he draws fouls like nobody's business. He has a good mid range jumper, but his ability to hit the natural 3-point play is unbelieveable
I don't mind flashy play AT ALL but the grandstanding and celebrating get to me. A couple of my all-time favorite players were flashy but they never gloated like today's athletes.
That's bullcrap dudeQuote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
LOL.. good comparison..Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
seriously though, if PC and URI offered me a full ride to play for them.. along with Uconn, Syracuse, etc.. i'm obviously going to the school where i will get the most recognition if i am THAT good. Score 15-20 a game for PC? or 10-15 a game for a top 25 team? I choose the latter.
home is where the heart is.. but making decisions with your heart is normally a flawed decision ;)
Mizzou would beat NC right now. Fact. Let that fag rot in hell for all I care. let his pasty white big nosed bitch ass live in chapel hill forever and play for the raptors when he gets done.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33LOL.. good comparison..Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
seriously though, if PC and URI offered me a full ride to play for them.. along with Uconn, Syracuse, etc.. i'm obviously going to the school where i will get the most recognition if i am THAT good. Score 15-20 a game for PC? or 10-15 a game for a top 25 team? I choose the latter.
home is where the heart is.. but making decisions with your heart is normally a flawed decision ;)
You think Mizzou can outrun the Heels?!?!?! That's just ridiculous....the Heels haven't been at full strength all season and they're still a #1 seed and they will still win the whole damn thing
If Lawson can't go I don't think they make it to the Final 4. If he can then they have to be the favorite
Agree.. lawson is their best player.. I have Oklahoma taking them out in the elite 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Yes I think they could beat them, I was pretty drk when I wrote that.....but they def. could beat them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33LOL.. good comparison..Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
seriously though, if PC and URI offered me a full ride to play for them.. along with Uconn, Syracuse, etc.. i'm obviously going to the school where i will get the most recognition if i am THAT good. Score 15-20 a game for PC? or 10-15 a game for a top 25 team? I choose the latter.
home is where the heart is.. but making decisions with your heart is normally a flawed decision ;)
If you are NBA quality you will get noticed with a good Big 12 or Big 10 school quite easily. Look at your friend playing for Oklahoma, is he not going to get drafted because he is playing in the Midwest. :rolleyes:
Read what i wrote again..Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxerQuote:
Originally Posted by RP33LOL.. good comparison..Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
seriously though, if PC and URI offered me a full ride to play for them.. along with Uconn, Syracuse, etc.. i'm obviously going to the school where i will get the most recognition if i am THAT good. Score 15-20 a game for PC? or 10-15 a game for a top 25 team? I choose the latter.
home is where the heart is.. but making decisions with your heart is normally a flawed decision ;)
If you are NBA quality you will get noticed with a good Big 12 or Big 10 school quite easily. Look at your friend playing for Oklahoma, is he not going to get drafted because he is playing in the Midwest. :rolleyes:
Doesn't matter where you play. Matters how good the team is and what you do for it. I mentioned all Big East teams (and URI which is A-10), and said i'd choose the top 25 team to play for over PC/URI which are schools in my home state. All in all, it of course depends on your individual performance, but i play enough ball to know that in most cases, the better the team around you is, the better you are.. As i said, you may not get as many points because of the talent around you sharing the baskets, but that goes along with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33Read what i wrote again..Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxerQuote:
Originally Posted by RP33
If you are NBA quality you will get noticed with a good Big 12 or Big 10 school quite easily. Look at your friend playing for Oklahoma, is he not going to get drafted because he is playing in the Midwest. :rolleyes:
Doesn't matter where you play. Matters how good the team is and what you do for it. I mentioned all Big East teams (and URI which is A-10), and said i'd choose the top 25 team to play for over PC/URI which are schools in my home state. All in all, it of course depends on your individual performance, but i play enough ball to know that in most cases, the better the team around you is, the better you are.. As i said, you may not get as many points because of the talent around you sharing the baskets, but that goes along with it.
Alright. THat is pretty sound reasoning.
Ty Lawson is fine...he's not the BEST player on UNC but he makes them a more special team. If Hansbrough was out with an injury it would change a lot of things. The reason he didn't play in the ACC Tourny is because it didn't mean anything to the Heels.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
UNC's past couple tournaments have ended because Ellington didn't shoot well and they didn't play good defense. I think they don't rely as much on Wayne to hit the big 3 when Danny Green is starting and playing the majority of the time.
Mizzou doesn't have the depth to outrun the Heels...and this year UNC is only like a 9 man team instead of a full squad of ballers....the losses of Will Graves (Greensboro's own ;D ) and Marcus Ginyard didn't help UNC but it didn't hurt us enough to lose to Mizzou.
And next year the Heels will be even better: Travis and David Wear (C-PF both of them), John Henson (a BEAST 6'10 shot blocking, 3-point shooting SMALL FORWARD), Dexter Strickland (the new PG), and Leslie McDonald (the new SG)
I've only watched the Heels play 3 times this season but in their last game against Duke, Lawson's play was the difference. When he turned it on Duke couldn't keep up. I think the real tests for UNC come from teams like UConn and Pitt with their great inside games. My Aggies should beat BYU but even that isn't a guarantee. I'm also a big Louisville fan. They play GREAT defense but I don't think they can count on their shooters to be as lights out as they have been as of late. I think Gonzaga and UCLA could also make a big splash. For some reason I'm not that sold on Memphis but I think their road to the Final 4 isn't as hard as others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyleTy Lawson is fine...he's not the BEST player on UNC but he makes them a more special team. If Hansbrough was out with an injury it would change a lot of things. The reason he didn't play in the ACC Tourny is because it didn't mean anything to the Heels.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
UNC's past couple tournaments have ended because Ellington didn't shoot well and they didn't play good defense. I think they don't rely as much on Wayne to hit the big 3 when Danny Green is starting and playing the majority of the time.
Mizzou doesn't have the depth to outrun the Heels...and this year UNC is only like a 9 man team instead of a full squad of ballers....the losses of Will Graves (Greensboro's own ;D ) and Marcus Ginyard didn't help UNC but it didn't hurt us enough to lose to Mizzou.
And next year the Heels will be even better: Travis and David Wear (C-PF both of them), John Henson (a BEAST 6'10 shot blocking, 3-point shooting SMALL FORWARD), Dexter Strickland (the new PG), and Leslie McDonald (the new SG)
Are you kidding about depth? Mizzou plays a rotational grind-you-down style that is why they are so great in these back to back playing situations. NC may beat them, but it won't be because they can't outrun them--it will be because they are far more talented.