Like what I've said, if he defeats Hatton convincingly, he's within the top 5 all time great along with Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, etc.
So to make this formal in saddo, please post your unbiased opinion.:cool:
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Like what I've said, if he defeats Hatton convincingly, he's within the top 5 all time great along with Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, etc.
So to make this formal in saddo, please post your unbiased opinion.:cool:
If Manny were to fight and beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly think he'd have a case for best of all time, I mean who else in history would have won world titles in 7 weight divisions, beaten THE man in virtually every division and if he beat Floyd, beat the other p4p number 1, undefeated 6 weight world champ.
For me he'd have acomplished more than Ali and Ray Robinson.
He won't beat Floyd though ;)
But yeah I'd say already he's bordering on top 5 of all time. I mean guys like Pep and Joe Luis were great and all but they couldn't have done what Pac has done, and tore through half a dozen weight classes and not just beating but knocking out hall of fame fighters.
He's a living legend and if he fights Floyd I think that will be the biggest fight of the last 20 years. If Floyd beats Marquez which I expect he will they are the Leonard and Duran of our times.
After this win I think Manny is starting to accomplish more than anyone has done in their actual career since Ali in terms of being recognized for how good they are while they are in the sport.
IMO he should be top 15 p4p ever.
He most likely is top 10 p4p ever.
He possibly could be top 5 p4p ever, but IMO he still needs to beat Marquez convincingly and/or Mayweather to do that.
It's hard to say where exactly he fits in in terms of the all-time greats. However, one thing that cannot be disputed (even before his shit-kicking of Hatton) is that he is an all-time great and a fighter that decades from now we will say we were privileged to watch. He is without a doubt one of the best fighters of all time.
I still think Mayweather beats him (though there's no shame in that and it in no way hurts his legacy) and I still hate his fanboys, but he's a great fighter. I feel like I should be rooting for him all the time, but I just can't. I know it's a juvenile position, but it's the way I feel.
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
I won't bother trying to rank Pac in the top 20 or whatever, but I feel he's proven himself to be an all-time great and has, IMO, surpassed Mayweather. PBF is a better fighter, but Pac - through the quality of his opposition - has placed himself ahead of Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWhoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
You wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWhoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
This was an outstanding performance. Is the Pacman top 5 of all time? Bring me the head of Floyd Mayweather jr Manny and i might say yes. To change divisions without losing any of his abilities and win in outstanding fashion makes the Pacman a candidate for this coveted ranking amongst the ATGs.
Remembering he started at Flyweight and has won against DLH at 147 and now knocks out Ricky Hatton who conqurered Kostya Tszyu at 140 is unbelievable, i still don't believe it.
I never thought for 1 minute Pacquiao would KO Hatton in 2!!
Currently Pacman has moved ahead of Mayweather in the ATG list with this win and surely a match up must be made by the end of the year.
Mayweather isn't coming back for nothing, he will find Marquez a handful too, he will need all he rounds he can get with the Pacman waiting in the wings. Mayweather might not even beat Marquez and then we see Pac V Marquez 3, either way we win as fight fans.
I am very impressed and i now rate Pacquiao ahead of both Pryor and Tszyu at 140lb.
Mayweather will now insist on a fight with Pacquiao at 147 because at 140lb i see the Pacman KTFO Floyd Mayweather jr!!!
Well my good man the show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWhoa! Whoa! Whoa!Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Let's slow down a bit here... Top 5 ALL TIME.
That is a bit too much.
Yes this was a great win and a win that put's him as #1 P4P right now.
But he has unfinished business with JMM and until then I'm sorry but he's not near the top 10 P4P all time.
If I barely have Floyd somewhere around 20 All time Pac still has a ways to go before he touches Top 20.
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
Show me where you would rank him.
Here's some names to get "you" started.
SRR
Henry
Ali
Alexis
JCC
Duran
Pernell
Louis
Monzon
SRL
Langford
Benny
Pep
Gans
Greb
Marciano
Hearns
Hagler
Wilde
Walker
Ketchel
Ezzard
Archie
Olivares
Jofre
Ross
Ike
Holyfield
Sanchez
Kid Gavilan
RJJ
PBF
Hopkins
You tell me when to stop....
i think talk of atg regarding manny should only be after he's finished with his career.
there's still pbf and jmm looming.
I am NOT disputing his greatness or that he's not an ATG.
I am disputing him top 5 all time.
It would be stupid to say he's not an ATG.
He is but top 5 all time? Not in my books.
Pacquiao entering realm of all-time great
Pacquiao chases history - Boxing - Yahoo! Sports
I like the part when Kevin Iole in the second article said that Manny is limited because of his height and small frame, imagine if he he was a bit bigger :)
For what PAC has accomplished, how he accomplished it and for his size it is indeed a FEAT.
At least top 20!!!
Well Mick I won't pretend I know a great deal about a lot of fighters on that list but let me run through a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWell my good man the show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
Show me where you would rank him.
Here's some names to get "you" started.
SRR
Henry
Ali
Alexis
JCC
Duran
Pernell
Louis
Monzon
SRL
Langford
Benny
Pep
Gans
Greb
Marciano
Hearns
Hagler
Wilde
Walker
Ketchel
Ezzard
Archie
Olivares
Jofre
Ross
Ike
Holyfield
Sanchez
Kid Gavilan
RJJ
PBF
Hopkins
You tell me when to stop....
Marvin Hagler. Sorry but Pacquaio in my opinion rates above Hagler. Hagler stuck to a single weight class and fought I believe 3 Hall of Famers, certainly three great fighters. One he KO'd in spectacular fashion, another coming up from lightweight he won on points (I don't think that is all THAT amazing) and the other the Ray Leonard he lost. You may argue it was close but he still lost. He never went to light heavy let alone up to heavyweight which is the equivilant of what Manny has done.
Hopkins, Surely Manny's resume is better than Hop's. Hopkins is a legend but his biggest wins in his prime were against smaller men, and his even though he's a two weight champ he never fought a bigger man in his career, Hopkins was always a light heavyweight. I consider Pacquaio's resume to be above Hopkins.
Joe Luis reigned for an awful long time but he never beat anyone in the top 20 All time great list so how can you disqualify Pacqauio for not having done that (when there simply havnt been any top 20 all times for him to fight) but not penalise Luis.
And comparing fights Pacqauio's wins are better than Luis no question imo. Luis never fought any other all time great heavy's yet Pacqauio has beaten a who's who of all time greats.
Monzon, again ruled only one weight class. I don't know a great deal about his opponents but Naples and Emille Griffith were the best I believe and to me are no better than Barrera and Morales on an all time. Add in Marquez, Hatton and De Le Hoya and I think Manny eclipses him.
Willie Pep is another that mystifies me a bit. Stuck in one division as far as I know and the only fighters he fought whose names I recognise he lost to.
I simply don't think it as impressive to stay in one weight class and beat all comers (actually most in your list didn't even do that they lost significant fights as well) rather than move through 6 (SIX!!) weight classes and beat the BEST in those division.s
I honestly think his resume is much better than most of those you mention and its only nostalgia that taints our view.
For a man to come from flyweight to rule as high as junior welter and beat a legend at welter is something that to my knowledge has never been done in the history of the sport, certainly not in the modern game.
Jones Jr went up to heavyweight, fought the weakest champ and won on points, Manny went up to light welter, fought the undisputed champ at the weight and destroyed him in two rounds.
He is the kind of fighter the likes of which I don't think has ever been seen in the sport exactly, a fighter who not only went through 6 weight classes, an elite few have done that, but he fought the best in those divisions, and he destroyed most of them! Who else in the history of boxing has done that?
Not Jones Jr, Not Sugar Ray Leonard, not Robinson, not Duran, certainly not Hagler, Monzon, Pep etc.
He is unique in the history of the sport.
Well Mick I won't pretend I know a great deal about a lot of fighters on that list but let me run through a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickWell my good man the show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboYou wouldn't even have him in the top 20 :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
He's won world titles in 6 divisions, and not just paper trinkets but he's beaten the undisputed champions of many of those divisions.
His resume compares to any boxer who has ever lived. Morales, Marquez, Barrera, De La Hoya and Hatton are all Hall of Fame bound and he knocked all of them out apart from Marquez who he floored 4 times in two fights.
That's a staggering record I don't know of any other fighter who has done that, especially across so many weight classes.
He's already the equal of Hearns, Hagler, Whitaker in my mind in terms of acomplishments and arguably he's done as much as Duran and Leonard.
IF he beat Floyd Mayweather I honestly don't see a boxer in history with better resume than that
Show me where you would rank him.
Here's some names to get "you" started.
SRR
Henry
Ali
Alexis
JCC
Duran
Pernell
Louis
Monzon
SRL
Langford
Benny
Pep
Gans
Greb
Marciano
Hearns
Hagler
Wilde
Walker
Ketchel
Ezzard
Archie
Olivares
Jofre
Ross
Ike
Holyfield
Sanchez
Kid Gavilan
RJJ
PBF
Hopkins
You tell me when to stop....
Marvin Hagler. Sorry but Pacquaio in my opinion rates above Hagler. Hagler stuck to a single weight class and fought I believe 3 Hall of Famers, certainly three great fighters. One he KO'd in spectacular fashion, another coming up from lightweight he won on points (I don't think that is all THAT amazing) and the other the Ray Leonard he lost. You may argue it was close but he still lost. He never went to light heavy let alone up to heavyweight which is the equivilant of what Manny has done.
Hopkins, Surely Manny's resume is better than Hop's. Hopkins is a legend but his biggest wins in his prime were against smaller men, and his even though he's a two weight champ he never fought a bigger man in his career, Hopkins was always a light heavyweight. I consider Pacquaio's resume to be above Hopkins.
Joe Luis reigned for an awful long time but he never beat anyone in the top 20 All time great list so how can you disqualify Pacqauio for not having done that (when there simply havnt been any top 20 all times for him to fight) but not penalise Luis.
And comparing fights Pacqauio's wins are better than Luis no question imo. Luis never fought any other all time great heavy's yet Pacqauio has beaten a who's who of all time greats.
Monzon, again ruled only one weight class. I don't know a great deal about his opponents but Naples and Emille Griffith were the best I believe and to me are no better than Barrera and Morales on an all time. Add in Marquez, Hatton and De Le Hoya and I think Manny eclipses him.
Willie Pep is another that mystifies me a bit. Stuck in one division as far as I know and the only fighters he fought whose names I recognise he lost to.
I simply don't think it as impressive to stay in one weight class and beat all comers (actually most in your list didn't even do that they lost significant fights as well) rather than move through 6 (SIX!!) weight classes and beat the BEST in those division.s
I honestly think his resume is much better than most of those you mention and its only nostalgia that taints our view.
For a man to come from flyweight to rule as high as junior welter and beat a legend at welter is something that to my knowledge has never been done in the history of the sport, certainly not in the modern game.
Jones Jr went up to heavyweight, fought the weakest champ and won on points, Manny went up to light welter, fought the undisputed champ at the weight and destroyed him in two rounds.
He is the kind of fighter the likes of which I don't think has ever been seen in the sport exactly, a fighter who not only went through 6 weight classes, an elite few have done that, but he fought the best in those divisions, and he destroyed most of them! Who else in the history of boxing has done that?
Not Jones Jr, Not Sugar Ray Leonard, not Robinson, not Duran, certainly not Hagler, Monzon, Pep etc.
He is unique in the history of the sport.
Great articles Pavlik, I agree completely with the first one, for me Pacquaio's resume eclipses Holyfields, Hopkins, Chavez, Whitaker, Hagler maybe even Roy Jones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
This isn't a statement but a question. For those who always put Henry Armstrong at number 4 in the All Time rankings for holding 3 world titles at 3 weights at the same time.
Well in the modern era you arn't allowed to do that but Manny has in the space of 15 months won world titles in three weight classes and beaten 3 Hall of Fame fighters, two by knockout.
He's also come from flyweight to do it.
What did Armstrong do that was better? Was it the quality of his opponents? Are they all top 20 All time greats?
If you look at Armstrongs record, he lost 3 of his first 4, was KO'd in his first fight and had a record of 72-11-7 when he won his first world title.
I don't know any of the fighters he fought, how many of them are in the top 50 or even top 100 all time great list?
I truly think if Manny had done what he has done in the modern era 50 years or so ago he would be considered right now in the top 3 of all time as highly rated if not more so than Armstrong and Pep.
Before you disagree with me, please explain to me why I am wrong and specifically the opponents that Joe Luis, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Jimmy Wilde, Benny Leonard etc beat and the records they held that makes their achievements greater than Mannys?
Well said BILBO. No doubt you're one of the open minded posters here in Saddo. It's just great to have witnessed one of the boxing greats in my lifetime and to think I followed his career since he started boxing. Whew. I'll be proud to tell my grandchildren that I was here in Saddo talking about Pac and watching all his fights.:cool::appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboGreat articles Pavlik, I agree completely with the first one, for me Pacquaio's resume eclipses Holyfields, Hopkins, Chavez, Whitaker, Hagler maybe even Roy Jones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlik
This isn't a statement but a question. For those who always put Henry Armstrong at number 4 in the All Time rankings for holding 3 world titles at 3 weights at the same time.
Well in the modern era you arn't allowed to do that but Manny has in the space of 15 months won world titles in three weight classes and beaten 3 Hall of Fame fighters, two by knockout.
He's also come from flyweight to do it.
What did Armstrong do that was better? Was it the quality of his opponents? Are they all top 20 All time greats?
If you look at Armstrongs record, he lost 3 of his first 4, was KO'd in his first fight and had a record of 72-11-7 when he won his first world title.
I don't know any of the fighters he fought, how many of them are in the top 50 or even top 100 all time great list?
I truly think if Manny had done what he has done in the modern era 50 years or so ago he would be considered right now in the top 3 of all time as highly rated if not more so than Armstrong and Pep.
Before you disagree with me, please explain to me why I am wrong and specifically the opponents that Joe Luis, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Jimmy Wilde, Benny Leonard etc beat and the records they held that makes their achievements greater than Mannys?
Keep on giving your opinions.
Well i would with out a doubt rate Leonard over Pac for a few reasons. Mostly is because when he beat Benitez and Hearns they both were at the top and never lost and went on to do more after there defeats. Barrea and Eric i rate below them and both were already defeated on more then once before getting to pacman. Barrea was not shot but Eric was coming off loses when he won and lost and did not go on to do much more. Then there is Marquaz win that could of gone either way i would rate Leonard wins over Duran higher since i rate Duran pretty high on the list. Last but not least is Hagler and Oscar well all i have to say is just look what there record looked like before they fought and i say Hagler was in better shape. I mean he was not beaten in a long time and was a Leonard came out of retirement to beat him Oscar was beaten and was part time fighter at the end of his career i dont rate the win the same just cant do it. As for the Hatton win he does not really belong with the names really he some what better then the guy Leonard beat for the Lhw title but not much better. So i would rate Pacman in the top 20 or so because people still rate Leonard between the top 10 and the top 15 so that how i look at it.
He can't be that far from Henry Armstrong. Pac is difinitely one of the top 25 ATGs.
Seeing as his career is far from over, I'd say he is building a damn good case for top 5.
Agreed. He just keeps on improving. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Youngblood
I know it's weird, but Pac gives me the creeps. A little scary.
Being a undefeated fighter is overrated.... Give me a fighter that faces all comers win or lose and I say he is a pure fighter!
Give me a fighter that that is selective about who he faces and I say he is managing his career.
I have to wonder now with that performance over Hatton, just how far gone was De La Hoya. Perhaps Pacquiao deserves more credit that he's gotten for defeating a good fighter rather than a completely shot fighter.
I put Pacquiao in as a solid top 20 on anyone's list. Top 10 on Pac fanatic's and Top 5 on loves lists....
Well Bilbs I think you and I both know it's easy to grab any fighter in history and just nit pick and take them apart with their career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Let's clarify something being that you've made this comment a couple times now. The he beat the Best in those div.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Pac was just a title holder in the Fly div. beating Sasakul was def. a good win. But let's not forget that "Too Sharp" was there in that division and was considered to be the best.
Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.
Pac did beat MAB and clearly. So yes he did beat the best at Super. Bantam. Then he fought to a Draw vs. JMM in a fight that NOT just several but a lot of people feel he lost.
He then get's clearly outboxed and hustled by Erik.
Then the whole Erik loses to Zahir but who cares boxing politics...
At Super Feather yes he did beat JMM the best in the div. on paper but again refer to the boxing circle and pan out a poll which has been posted on here about boxing writers and analist and all had JMM wining.
At Lightweight it's clear it was a tue up/gimmie fight for him he picked up a title but did not beat the best. Shit! I'd go as far as saying Diaz was around the 6, 7 or 8th best Lightweight at that time.
Let's eye this ODLH @ 147 more the fight was billed as such but Pac scaled in at 142 and not 147 so technically it wasn't at 147. He did exactly what I posted he would do. Beat and mandhandle a guy who had no business trying to make 147. A guy who I said would look like a corpse and guy who hadn't fought at 157 for over 6 yrs.
I'm sorry and you can look up my posts but nothing about what Pac did to ODLH impressed me. Long before ODLHs opponent was even talked about, when I 1st read ODLH to fight at 147 I knew he'd lose.
So this is rated a 147 win for Pac, OK I'll take it but he didn't beat the best.
He did beat the best at 140 and in fashion. Like true great do and again I'm sorry but I don't see how people called this fight 50/50 or close and you can look up my posting from day one of this fight. I said Pac KO and within 5 rounds, I said if Lazcano was able to hurt and wobble him then Pac would just blitz him.
Never in my wildest dreams did I think he'd do it in 2 rounds that is mind blowing.
So let's do a total count here:
- Title holder at Fly
- Title holder at Super Bantam
- Beat the man at Featherweight in MAB (With a draw vs. the 2nd best Feather and a loss to Erik)
- Beat the man at Super Feather
- Title holder at Lightweight
- Beat the man at Lightwelter
How wrong can you be Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
If you hoenstly think Emile & Mantequilla are no better then Erik & MAB then theirs nothing I can do.
But I would strongly suggest you get a hold of their career sets.
I think your talking a bit out of your ass there without really having studied Emile & Napoles. But wow!
Believe me this is coming from a fan of both Erik & MAB but nope.com
neither one is at the level of those 2.
See my post above in regards to beating "ruling"/"beating the best".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I do agree on the weight move and I don't dispute it and never have I think it's crazy for him to do that and is great.
That is a true fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Pac also moved up in weight and took on the weakest champ in Diaz and starched him.
I def. give him ALL the praise in the world for the distruction he did on Hatton but nothing you say will change my mind on the ODLH fight and the Diaz fight.
Again see my post above about the "best" comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Yes he did beat the best in some of those div. but not all and I'm not taking from him just clarifying your comment.
I do agree again that what he has done in just within a few years is crazy the moving up in weight and I do praise him for it.
But we don't know where his career will go and how it will end so to say he's top 5 all time or top 10 is IMO off.
He's def. an ATG.
I hate these lists but I'd say he's already reached top 30, somewhere in there, what he's done is just ridiculous and its a proven fact that a guy gets "better" the longer he's been retired, we put older fighters up on a pedestal just generally.
He's probably the fighter of this generation right now, as much as I'm a Hopkins fan. And Floyd's somewhere there too obviously.
Pac is now somewhere 10 to 20.
I think alot of this is understandable but a bit premature.Its 'in the now' and what we're experiencing first hand,very easy to grasp and get our eyes on.Shite every generation does it,But I really dont think you can fairly peg a guy still active and who,in the BIG picture of the sport still has a way to go yet.A little hindsight and prospective goes along way.Is he a great fight,absofrigginlutly,one of the best we have had a pleasure to experience over the last decade.Has he accomplished more and been a better fighter overall then say Whitaker,Robinson,Ali,Armstrong,Leonard,etc,etc?Co me on now,really.
Pac is now the greatest asian boxer that's for sure.
Most definitely! He is ahead of Harada and Galaxy by a long way now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIAN SENSATION
I agree and both Harda & Galaxy were brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
I see you have been fired up about the Pac ATG debate Mick, i have to say i am completely amazed at what Pacquiao has achieved in the past 18 months, he has really only been tested by Marquez (i would love to see fight no.3) and he has easily accounted for DLH and now sensationally Knocking Out Hatton.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickI agree and both Harda & Galaxy were brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
What's your take on a potential Mayweather fight? How will the Pretty Boy beat him? I think if Pac beats PBF he goes into the top 20 ATG. Bring on Klitschko :D
T-Man,Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANI see you have been fired up about the Pac ATG debate Mick, i have to say i am completely amazed at what Pacquiao has achieved in the past 18 months, he has really only been tested by Marquez (i would love to see fight no.3) and he has easily accounted for DLH and now sensationally Knocking Out Hatton.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMickI agree and both Harda & Galaxy were brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
What's your take on a potential Mayweather fight? How will the Pretty Boy beat him? I think if Pac beats PBF he goes into the top 20 ATG. Bring on Klitschko :D
I just feel it's a bit premature to say he's top 5 all time or top 20 all time RIGHT NOW.
His career IMO is far from over and he has looked unbeatable in his last 3 fights.
However we have to take into consideration his opposition in 2 of those 3 fights.
If Pac were to beat PBF, then Pac IMO would SURELY have an arguement as the greatest fighter of all time. Top 3 for certain.
Let's not forget SRR would have defeted Maxim if not for dehydration.
Henry defended his titles simotaneously and had he argueably beat Ceferino Garcia for the Middle title.
Then theirs Ali.
CMM, I have to disagree with you on Agapito Sanchez. Before the fight was ended, Pac was winning that fight. VD and I had a debate about it. I've watched the fight again and again, and it was clear Pac was winning. Sanchez does not deserve any mention on Pac. He was simply the dirtiest fighter I've seen, worse than Golota. :cool:
We can agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
I agree and I clearly stated Sanchez was dirty.
I also clearly stated if not for the 2 point deductions Pac would have lost that fight look up the scoring on the fight and see for yourself.
Let's remember he was loosing to Agapito in their fight and and was down at least 3 points. It was a very dirty fight and Agapito was as dirty as they came if not for the point 2 deductions Pac would have lost this fight.
I beg to disagree on the losing part. Had the fight been continued, Sanchez would have been TKoed, IMO. Watch the last part when Pac was giving Sanchez all those powershots.
Regarding Marquez, I hate to say this but during Pac vs JMM 2, Marquez was saved by the bell during the 3rd round. Had the KO happened 2 minutes before the bell, he would have been a goner like Morales in the Pac vs Morales 3.
Honestly, I can sense that Pac would TKO Marquez next time they fight. Marquez has never downed Pac but Pac has downed marquez so many times already.
Hope Marquez wins over Floyd so we can see Pac vs JMM3. Regardless of the result of this dream fight, Pac is ATG top5 for me in terms of oppositions.
Just imagine, from 106 lbs to 147, still carrying with him his power and speed. Hatton lasted only 2 rounds, my theory about DLH is then confirmed.What Pac had done to DLH is something not everyone can do.Not even Mayweather.:cool:
Pac is a class of his own. An ATG top 5 (probably top 1, if he defeats PBF) in our lifetime and I'm proud to have witnessed his fights.:cool:
Well we can be here all night in the end you'll have your take and I'll have mine. Yours comes from hard core base mine comes from a more neutral base.Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
I said this last year after JMM-Pac II the more time passes the better chances that Pac has to defeat JMM. Time is what is defeating JMM and the more the time pases the better chances that Pac has to clearly beat this time. So in part I feel that JMM will lose to PBF, I also feel Pac will lose to PBF and JMM-Pac III will happen and this 3rd time Pac will clearly defeat him with no questions asked.
Um Bilbo, what does this have to do with anything? You do realize that if you hold this against Armstrong then you have to hold Pacquiao's early losses against him right? That seems wildly inconsistent on how you judge your fighters. Right? I mean if Armstrong getting KO'd in his first fight excludes him, what would Pacquiao falling like a ton of bricks to a Torrecampo body shot do to him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jim Jones would be very proud of you Bruce.Especially that ending 'If and prolly' # 1 all time part....:cwm13:.Cannot wait to see who/why out ranks him top 4?;DQuote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
You're utterly delusional if you believe that. He's an ATG without a doubt, but there is no chance he's the best fighter ever if he beats Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Honestly, I have him within top 5. It's difficult to be really comparing him with others in the top 5 coz we have our own opinions. One thing is sure, pac is doing things extraordinarily. He has no league. That makes him all-time great.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliJim Jones would be very proud of you Bruce.Especially that ending 'If and prolly' # 1 all time part....:cwm13:.Cannot wait to see who/why out ranks him top 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
That is what many have been saying about us when he fought Barrera1, Morales2, Hatton, DLH. You can call me delusional but I guess I'm not hallucinating when Pac demolished Hatton in 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHYou're utterly delusional if you believe that. He's an ATG without a doubt, but there is no chance he's the best fighter ever if he beats Mayweather.Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Anyway, this is only my opinion and I may have lacked the necessary knowledge to judge properly. Time will be the judge for what we say. For now, I say, Pac is top5 ATG.
No Amat I brought up Amstrongs early record to counter the claims about Pacquaio's early losses. You see Mick and others have already stated Pacquaio lost early in his career and was struggling against Agapito as if that's a disqualification from greatness.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatUm Bilbo, what does this have to do with anything? You do realize that if you hold this against Armstrong then you have to hold Pacquiao's early losses against him right? That seems wildly inconsistent on how you judge your fighters. Right? I mean if Armstrong getting KO'd in his first fight excludes him, what would Pacquiao falling like a ton of bricks to a Torrecampo body shot do to him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It isn't, what matters is heights a fighter aspires to, not whether he had a faultless run to get there. Pacquaio lost fights early in his career, and I was highlighting the fact that even the great Henry Armstrong, nearly always number 3 on an all time great list had a bunch of early losses too, including being KO'd in his very first fight, and that he had already been defeated 11 times before he won his first world title.
So you cannot disqualify Pacquaio from conversations of greatness based on early losses any more than you can Armstrong.
I also went on to ask the question (which nobody has answered) what was it about Armstrong's three world title at three weight classes simultaneously that was better than Manny's three world titles at three weight classes in 15 months?
Agains this isn't a statement but a question. Was Armstrongs opposition better than Mannys? Did he beat fighters who are also considered to be in the top 20 All Time greats, remember CutMeMick says Pac is disqualified from being Top 20 right noe because he hasn't beaten another Top 20 of all time great, so I'm just asking the question how many Top 20 All Times did Armstrong beat?
It is my belief, as I said earlier that had Manny achieved what he has achived in the last three years or so but 50 years ago he would be regarded as easily top 10 of all time maybe even top 5 were he to retire on this note.