Ricky should have stayed with Billy Graham

OK been pondering about this and not 100% sure how to type it to make sense so here goes.

ever since Ricky used Graham as the scapgoat for his loss to Mayweather it pissed me off.

i think at the time i made a comparison to Naz teaming up with Manny Steward and Manny fucking up his style trying to turn him into a boxer.

Ricky like Naz was tooo long in the tooth to learn new tricks. he got where he was because of Graham, he knew him inside and out ((what he could and couldn't do))

they were mates and it was a succesful partnership, just ask Ricky's bank manager.

sure it was ugly at times but he got to the top with him and the sometimes ugly style they used.

I am not saying Ricky would have done any better under Graham but i'm sure as hell saying he could't have done any worse.

and feel it was a shame that Graham didn't finish his career in rickys corner.

kinda tainted Ricky for me the way he threw him to one side because of the loss... gotta remember how close these guys where and how many successful years they spent together.

still not sure if i made any sense above but i know what i mean ;)

I can't be the only one who feels this way so if anyone can put it into words better than me feel free ;)

I know exactly what you are saying - but am not going to try put it in better words cos I just like to open a post and type carefree ;)


Fighters always have to look for scapegoat or excuse once the '0' goes - Billy was the victim

Found it sad in the 24/7 programme for Pac when Billy said he hadn't seen or heard from him since the day he told him it was over.

I never rated Malignaggi and realise now that probably fooled us into thinking he was reborn under Mayweather.

Wonder what Billy was like watching last night - how did he feel ? what did he want to happen ? Was he thinking 'serves you right ' ? :-\

makes you wonder - sad

I agree with you Saddo. The fact that Ricky got rid of him after his first loss and a not so great performance vs. Lazcano, basically says that after 45 professional fights he was very unsure of himself for the first time in his career. He lost confidence in himself and put it on Graham as an excuse. He owed Graham more than that imo, and what Ricky failed to realize is that great fighters make great trainers. Floyd Sr. and Hatton ignored this fact. Ironically, Freddie Roach, who always reminds us of that over the years, refreshed our memories yesterday in the form of Manny Pacquiao.

Cheers guys glad i aint the only one ;)

I know for a fact how gutted Billy was at being fired.

i can imagine he was watching last night with mixed emotions.

I also just felt the need to post this thread because of all the negative Billy threads around the net after the split.

he deserved better treatment from Ricky and some of his fans IMO 8)

Well there is nothing wrong with trying to learn new things especially after a loss and I think thats what Ricky was going for but he went about it the wrong way. I think he took a page out of Oscars book on how to fire a trainer. But I believe it would have been the same result regardless of who was in Hattons corner. I think a fitting end would be Hatton teaming up with Graham and having a farewell fight in England against a Mayweather fighter.

To be honest I don't really see what was wrong with Ricky wanting to shake things up after his loss to Mayweather and rumours he had lost his edge and was on the decline.

Graham was his trainer not his wife and Ricky has every right to decide how he wants to prepare for a fight and if he felt he need something new at this late stage of his career to revitalise him then it was up to him.

To be honest I saw it the other way, I felt Graham whined about it (at least on the 24/7 show).

It was Ricky's boxing career not Graham's.

Got to agree with you Saddo, Billy deserved a lot more respect, lets face it Ricky never listened to Billy either i posted in a thread earlier in the week Ricky will always revert to the normal face first for defence. Very sad for Billy im sure he was devastated last night.
We will never know what has happened in camp as the team will only tell us what they want us to know. I think its pointless blaming FMS as his job finishes before the bell just like Billys.
In hindsight changing trainers at the point of a loss smacks of cant admit your own weaknesses and believing your own hype.

Sorry Bilbo totally disagree... if it was for that reason and not at the tail end of his Career you might have a point but it wasnt and Graham got him there.

so dumping him because he lost to one of the best fighters of our era stinks ;)

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Originally Posted by chip

Got to agree with you Saddo, Billy deserved a lot more respect, lets face it Ricky never listened to Billy either i posted in a thread earlier in the week Ricky will always revert to the normal face first for defence. Very sad for Billy im sure he was devastated last night.
We will never know what has happened in camp as the team will only tell us what they want us to know. I think its pointless blaming FMS as his job finishes before the bell just like Billys.
In hindsight changing trainers at the point of a loss smacks of cant admit your own weaknesses and believing your own hype.

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spot on ;)

Ricky made Graham a rich man and was his best fighter... so it's not all bad for him.

He thought Hatton would beat Pac easy too. So whether or not Ricky should have given him the elbow, one things for certain, fighting Pac with Graham in his corner would have changed nothing.

Just look at Hatton-Magee. ;)

Right or wrong who knows, but what stops the plan is Nuerons and understanding there adaptability, not a lot of People do. Sure Mayweather hasnt a clue. ;D

I am not real familiar with how the break up went, but I think Ricky realized that his style and abilities had reached their peak after the PBF fight. I think he figured he needed to change how he trained to still fight at an elite level. That being said he could have had Jesus in his corner last night and it wouldn't have mattered.

IMHO Billy Graham should stick to conditioning.

For years the development of his boxing abilitys has been neglected. I understand Hatton's style etc but I can't believe Graham never taught Hatton how and when to use a guard etc.

At this stage in his career though, he should of just stuck with Graham, no sense trying to strip an old engine down and try to make a new one. Don't think he can be directly blamed for the Mayweather loss at all.

The Maussa fight should of been a clear indicator that he couldn't simply just walk through anybody but I always got the feeling listening to the team that since he beat Tyszu they believed their own hype way too much.

Really don't see why nobody was kicking Hatton's arse and keeping him on a straighter path between fights, you read his autobiography and he practically brags about benders him and graham had... suppose it's a double edged sword... if he'd been like a monk then he wouldn't have 25,000 fans going to watch him fight in Vegas, but I can't be the only person who got sick of how thickly they laid on the 'normal, common bloke' deal (as if other boxers ride around on penny farthings wearing top hats or something?)
Hopkins/Calzaghe etc may not have been 'Normal Common blokes' (*sigh*) but you don't see them going to the ring covered in coldsores or telling you that they have a cold every other week.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm tearing into Hatton here, I just feel that although he's done very well and had a very respectful career, fought the best and only lost to the best but he could of been better, he's got a lot of talent and I think part of that has been neglected.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

IMHO Billy Graham should stick to conditioning.

For years the development of his boxing abilitys has been neglected. I understand Hatton's style etc but I can't believe Graham never taught Hatton how and when to use a guard etc.

At this stage in his career though, he should of just stuck with Graham, no sense trying to strip an old engine down and try to make a new one. Don't think he can be directly blamed for the Mayweather loss at all.

The Maussa fight should of been a clear indicator that he couldn't simply just walk through anybody but I always got the feeling listening to the team that since he beat Tyszu they believed their own hype way too much.

Really don't see why nobody was kicking Hatton's arse and keeping him on a straighter path between fights, you read his autobiography and he practically brags about benders him and graham had... suppose it's a double edged sword... if he'd been like a monk then he wouldn't have 25,000 fans going to watch him fight in Vegas, but I can't be the only person who got sick of how thickly they laid on the 'normal, common bloke' deal (as if other boxers ride around on penny farthings wearing top hats or something?)
Hopkins/Calzaghe etc may not have been 'Normal Common blokes' (*sigh*) but you don't see them going to the ring covered in coldsores or telling you that they have a cold every other week.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm tearing into Hatton here, I just feel that although he's done very well and had a very respectful career, fought the best and only lost to the best but he could of been better, he's got a lot of talent and I think part of that has been neglected.

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great critique of hatton's drinking, and of how he bragged about it, and how he kept on harping about him being a normal bloke and jack the lad. bragging on drinking is for kids, as any real long-term drinker will be the first to point out, and calling himself a jack the lad, and all his repeated references to being fat, were flaky, that is, in bad taste. then while in the ring after getting knocked out by floyd, he didn't waste any time saying, "oh i didn't have to come up in weight for this fight but bla bla bla." So, he has his money and his legacy and his mates. I won't miss him.

I actually disagree with this.

I think that it would have been the easiest thing in the world to stay with Billy and that it took a lot of guts for Hatton to move on. At no time did I ever hear Ricky make Billy a scapegoat for the loss to Mayweather, just that Billy was getting a bit long in the tooth to be working the pads (and that he needed painkillers just to get through a session) and that he felt he needed some fresh ideas.

My issue is that I think that Mayweather was the wrong man. What about a Buddy McGirt - he obviously has a better way about him, look at the way he got Gatti's defences and skills improved.

I often wanted Kostya Tszyu to leave Johnny Lewis because I simply don't rate him as a trainer. All his fighters were face first brawlers (apart from Virgil Hill, who could box plenty before he met Johnny). Believe me, anywhere Kostya got in the sport of boxing didn't have a whole lot to do with Johnny Lewis. I remember hearing Lewis say to Jeff Fenech between rounds, when Fenech was copping an absolute belting at the hands of Azumah Nelson, to 'just punch the shit out of him mate.' Hmmmm....

I agree, it's sad that Graham was sacked and they don't speak anymore (although I think that has more to do with Billy's attitude than Ricky's???), but it's Ricky in there taking the shots and frankly, if he feels better prepared with someone else, then that's exactly what he should do.

i'm trying to think of any fighter who changed trainers at the tail end of there career and it improved them.

not my best subject but i can't think of one.

anyone tell me of any as i am struggling to see this as anything other than an excuse for losing.

Mosley is the only one I can think of at the moment. Though Im not sure he improved, his gameplan was better.

I see where you guys are coming from. But first and foremost, boxing is a business and it was a business move.


Hatton said in interview he felt like Graham was slowing down and as a result he was too. Here's a guy who felt like he had a handful of fights left in him and wanted to finish his career in the best way possible. That's why Hatton made the move, sure it wasnt easy for him to do either.

When it happened I know I felt like it took away some of the....I dunno..."storybook" aspect of Hattons career. But he was just trying to do what was best for him.


And lets not forget, he's the one in the ring, he was the one eating lots of punches...his health was probably part of that decision as well.


Hindsight 20/20 and all; yeah it seems like a bad decision now. But i see why he did it and it made sense at the time.

I bet Graham has a whole lot to say now.. a lot of I told you so's

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Originally Posted by JudahShuffle

I bet Graham has a whole lot to say now.. a lot of I told you so's

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Not much really... Graham picked Hatton to defeat PAC...
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I don't necessarily agree but I think Ricky took the wrong path to improve.... I more reasonable path would have been to add to his corner rather than to change it. Certainly hiring Mayweather Sr. in place of Graham was a big mistake in my opinion.

Have you ever tried to take up a sport like snow skiing (or tennis etc...) just for the fun of it and never took lessons. You find yourself getting down the slopes ok but once you get tired, you start to fall a lot and wonder why that didn't happen to some others with less physical ability than you. It's because you lacked fundimental training in technique and what you did earlier was mussle your way down the slopes. Once your mussles started to fail your bad techniques are exposed and you started falling. So as you get older you start using more technique to compensate. You start elevating your game and the competition gets better which also exposes your bad techniques.

All hiring Mayweather Sr. did was help to point out Ricky's lack of technique while trying change him from a downhill racer into a freestylest. Ricky needs brawler techniques not dancer techniques. You don't change a fighter's style with 40 fights, you improve upon what he's got. Had he kept Graham in his corner it would have added rather than try to change. ;)

It's an interesting one that Saddo. And something I have been thinking about since the fight. Hindsight is always a mans best friend.

Graham was someone that Ricky could trust and he was someone that knew Hatton inside out. We all know Hatton wasn't always the mauler he has since become, he did box when he was younger and he knew how to get in and throw combinations before stepping back out again. Somewhere that did get lost, seemingly post Kostya. Hatton showed glimpses of his boxing in fights since. But he started to smother his own work more and more and the style became very throw and clinchy. Anyway, the loss to Mayweather and a sloppy show against Lazcano and Graham gets the boot. Apparently because Graham was slowing down and Hatton wanted to box more.

I had always looked at the Malignaggi fight as a new start and that it showed Mayweather bringing out the things in Ricky that he was forgetting to do under Graham. The latest fight was a shocker and we all know how that went. But it has me thinking, defensively Hatton has learned very little from Mayweather and really in the Malignaggi fight we just saw Hatton fighting with a little more composure and throwing a few more jabs in there. There wasn't anything that Graham had never shown him to do before.

If Graham was slowing down then why not just have Lee Beard or someone like that help out on the pads. They were doing that for the Lazcano fight as far as I recall and were talking about the need for more combinations and movement even then. It just seems like Graham was made a scapegoat. And yet he was the one trainer who knew Hatton and had the insight as to what could and couldn't work. Mayweather Snr was a strange choice. Hatton is not a defensive fighter and the chemistry does seem very strange.

Mayweather snr has critisized Graham quite vocally in recent months, but on reflection after all the dust has settled...well, it's clear that Mayweather didn't introduce anything new either. Malignaggi was a good win for Ricky, but maybe we allowed ourselves to read too much into it and maybe Hatton did too. Malignaggi did look ragged in his fights pre Hatton. Hindsight makes it easy to reevaluate what you thought before and I'm not keen on it because people will accuse you of making excuses. But I'm not trying to do that.

But at the end of the day, it went horribly wrong against Manny. Ricky is a smart guy, he calls himself a student of boxing. If he wanted more headmovement he could have worked it out with Graham and Beard. If he thought more of a jab was needed he could have done likewise. It's not massive stuff, he's not looking to turn into Floyd Jnr. with the shoulder roll. So, it's hard to see what Floyd snr could have introduced that Billy didn't already know or that he and Ricky couldn't decide what they should introduce.

But yeah, after all is said and done. I think Billy Graham could have done just as good a job with Ricky, and certainly have had him fare better against Manny. Having people who really care in your corner makes a difference in times like that.

It's all very sad really. :(

Losing to Mayweather and PACMAN , both at the time p4p best around is no disgrace at all , i fail to accept Hatton would have won either fight , whoever was in his corner. Simple fact is he wasnt good enough either time.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Losing to Mayweather and PACMAN , both at the time p4p best around is no disgrace at all , i fail to accept Hatton would have won either fight , whoever was in his corner. Simple fact is he wasnt good enough either time.

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Yep, no shame in losing to the best. Hatton has all the courage in the world in that sense. Hatton might well have lost regardless as you say.

That punch lands under either trainer and Hatton is getting sparked. :-\

I agree that Hatton should have stuck with Graham but he was in a difficult position that no one on here is likely to be faced with, so he made his decision. The result of the fight with Pac however would have been the same no matter who he had. Pac is on a roll at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Mark TKO

I know exactly what you are saying - but am not going to try put it in better words cos I just like to open a post and type carefree ;)


Fighters always have to look for scapegoat or excuse once the '0' goes - Billy was the victim

Found it sad in the 24/7 programme for Pac when Billy said he hadn't seen or heard from him since the day he told him it was over.

I never rated Malignaggi and realise now that probably fooled us into thinking he was reborn under Mayweather.

Wonder what Billy was like watching last night - how did he feel ? what did he want to happen ? Was he thinking 'serves you right ' ? :-\

makes you wonder - sad

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To be honest I heard him being interviwed on Steve Bunce's boxing hour on thursday and Billy sounded 100% behind Ricky and was talking about his injuries feeling better and being tempted into training some american fighters in the near future!

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Originally Posted by Saddo

i'm trying to think of any fighter who changed trainers at the tail end of there career and it improved them.

not my best subject but i can't think of one.

anyone tell me of any as i am struggling to see this as anything other than an excuse for losing.

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Well the problem with career tail ends is people reach their height in popularity and take on better opponents and get found out, then people try to make excuses so the new trainer gets blamed whether or not it is his fault.

Mayweather Snr has or had not interest in Hatton whatsoever imo.
Just out for a fat pay cheque.

He didn't even bother turning up to the post fight presser and was bust signing autographs and having his picture minutes after HAtton suffered a Heavy KO.

Said it before the fight that the 24/7 fame thing was just a way of raising his profile.

I also thought Hatton looked beat before he got in the ring and the fans looked bemused that his anthem "Blue Moon" was'nt used as he entered the ring...they played 10 secs of it when he was already in the ring.:confused:

Mayweather was also late for 3 or 4 crucial sparring sessions and was even 1 and a half hours late on fight night.

Not saying at all that this was why Ricky lost because Manny is a league above him and Hatton wasn't capable of winning that fight (You knew as soon as Pac landed the first power shot it was gonna be over and quick) but your cornerman is someone you should trust 100% and vital to a fighters confidence.

With all of the above going on Hattons head must have been all over the place.

In short i just think Mayweather used Ricky for a payday.

Yep, I've heard all those same things. No excuses, but it all turned out far worse than it should have IMO.

Hatton fought kamikaze style and you just cannot do what he was doing against someone as quick as Manny. Maybe his head wasn't in the right place, we certainly didn't see any of what he was suggesting before the fight. It's almost as if from the opening bell he had the mist in front of his eyes. He did better in the second, but seemed to have abandoned any sort of strategy and was leading with leaping hooks and being far too reckless. I really hoped he would just get through the second and try and clear his head some more, and then of course it was all over. He really should have just stayed cautious on hearing the ten second marker. But easier said than done. It was infuriating to watch because you could see all the things he just wasn't doing that he really should have been doing.

Floyd Mayweather didn't help really. I struggle to see what Mayweather could have been helping Ricky with that Lee Beard couldn't have been doing already doing without him. What was the point? Was it just for the sake of having a name in the corner with him? Was Mayweather really needed to teach him how to throw a jab, move his head and keep his hands up? Those are things that any almost any fighter can work on with many a trainer and even then Ricky didn't deploy those things. Roach and Manny specifically worked on what to get Hatton with and timing the right correctly was what they used. There was no method in what I saw in Hatton at all, and it was so costly.

It was strange with the ring music too. I was watching it, surprised Blue Moon wasn't kicking it off. Just a little snippet when he had got into the ring. Not a big thing mind you, but strange.

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Originally Posted by smashup

Mayweather Snr has or had not interest in Hatton whatsoever imo.
Just out for a fat pay cheque.

He didn't even bother turning up to the post fight presser and was bust signing autographs and having his picture minutes after HAtton suffered a Heavy KO.

Said it before the fight that the 24/7 fame thing was just a way of raising his profile.

I also thought Hatton looked beat before he got in the ring and the fans looked bemused that his anthem "Blue Moon" was'nt used as he entered the ring...they played 10 secs of it when he was already in the ring.:confused:

Mayweather was also late for 3 or 4 crucial sparring sessions and was even 1 and a half hours late on fight night.

Not saying at all that this was why Ricky lost because Manny is a league above him and Hatton wasn't capable of winning that fight (You knew as soon as Pac landed the first power shot it was gonna be over and quick) but your cornerman is someone you should trust 100% and vital to a fighters confidence.

With all of the above going on Hattons head must have been all over the place.

In short i just think Mayweather used Ricky for a payday.

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Certainly seems that way when you add everything up.

Bob on Smash and Miles ;)

i don;t think anyone is saying he would win... i'm more pissed about him using a loyal longterm friend as a scapgoat.. no more no less ;)

I don't think Ricky could have beat Pacquiao that night, but I think he had a chance. We all knew that patience was a major part of being victorious in this fight. If he was mentally prepared, instead of "pedal to the metal". Mayweather didn't do his part to get Ricky ready mentally. Ricky wanted the fight it way too much. He beat himself just as much as Pacquiao knocked him out.

I don't see Ricky quiting at this point. I hope he collects himself, loses Mayweather Sr. and gets back to the "Ricky of Old" (in a maner of speaking, only). I doubt that we'll ever see him against another p4p #1, but a few well positioned fights, we might see him in a rematch with Mayweather Jr. right after Pacquiao softens him up. ;D I heard him say things in 24/7 that makes me think he won't retire this way.

If hatton shows up in the ring trying to box with his hands down it doesn't matter who trains him, it's only a different person picking him up off that damn rockstar mat again.

He fought like an idiot. It was shockingly bad.

I love hatton, but I have no sympathy for that kind of approach.

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Originally Posted by Saddo

i'm trying to think of any fighter who changed trainers at the tail end of there career and it improved them.

not my best subject but i can't think of one.

anyone tell me of any as i am struggling to see this as anything other than an excuse for losing.

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Off the top of my head George Foreman (Angelo Dundee); but of course that was in completely different circumstances to Hatton's.

My take is perhaps post Mayweather Jr; Hatton was not prepared to make the real hard decision and look at his lifestyle, so he picked the easier option (I would like to think Hatton dropped Graham with a heavy heart) and got rid of Billy.

It looks great with hindsight, but even at the time I figured Hatton had nothing left to prove post Mayweather Jr, he should of called it a day then.

But he did look good beating Paulie and I will admit I figured Hatton had benefited from the change of trainer, but I was wrong; the blowing up between fights cost him in the end, and he was a lucky man yesterday; Health wise.

I think Ricky getting a new trainer was a good idea. It's an age and motivation thing. Sometimes you need to do things differently to get motivated again. I think that was his problem with Graham. That being said Mayweather was a bad choice. Not Mayweather's fault he lost, but I think trying to fight Mayweather's style made it end sooner. He stayed in Pac's range instead of smothering him and trying to wear him down.

I think Mayweather is too full of himself to train anyone. It's not about the fighter it's about him. I think he's very overrated. His boxing career matches his training career. He has the tools, but can't put it together.

Mayweather can't maintain a relationship with anyone accept ODH. And I think it was ODH tolerating Mayweather's poor work habits. I don't see Mayweather being a disciplined coach at all. He's got good genetics, fast, experience, but he's dumb as a box of rocks and does what he wants when he wants.

Mayweather had Bad Chad Dawson and that lasted for about 3 months before they split and Mayweather was trashing him. He's just a scumbag.