Can you be an all time great if your best win is against Zab Judah?

Discuss;D

I dunno - Carlos Baldomir was a pretty good fighter.

No. But coupled with a few other good wins, you could.

IMO the Zab win was not "his" best one. It was the Coralles win.

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Originally Posted by The_Infinite

No. But coupled with a few other good wins, you could.

IMO the Zab win was not "his" best one. It was the Coralles win.

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Are you sure you're talking about the same fighter?

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Originally Posted by miron_lang

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Originally Posted by The_Infinite

No. But coupled with a few other good wins, you could.

IMO the Zab win was not "his" best one. It was the Coralles win.

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Are you sure you're talking about the same fighter?

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I don't think he is ;D

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Originally Posted by ono

I dunno - Carlos Baldomir was a pretty good fighter.

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;D

So we are either talking about Kostya or Floyd. Either way, I'm not sure Zab was their best win. In the case of KT, he faced an undefeated 140lb version of Judah. Peoples perception of Judah at that time was totally different, and KT had plenty of other wins of that were equal or better. As for Mayweather, his wins over Chico, Castillo, Oscar, and Hatton are better wins than the Judah win.

We are talking about Tszyu... and I don't see anybody better on his resume than Judah :-\

Some people think Floyd's best win is Judah? Blimey ;D

If you sport a rattail whilst beating Zab that should make you great. Fact.

Hurricane Carter did beat the very excellent Emile Griffin, a major upset. Such thing is always possible and it should not forbid somebody that has a lot of achievement from acceding the hall of fame.

BIG H, you shamed me ;D;D;D

Im going to hide under by bed for a week just to forget this. Well then now that its clear, I still stick with my original answer.

No. But coupled with a few other good wins, you could.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

We are talking about Tszyu... and I don't see anybody better on his resume than Judah :-\

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Originally Posted by BIG H

We are talking about Tszyu... and I don't see anybody better on his resume than Judah :-\

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Originally Posted by The_Infinite

BIG H, you shamed me ;D;D;D

Im going to hide under by bed for a week just to forget this.

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;D

Oops sorry all, I misread the question as "if you got beaten by Judah, can you still be considered one of the great", I misread, all my apologies for the misinterpretation

I've been saying this for awhile.

I think he was a great fighter but he never got that elite fight to prove it.

Anyway I'm not sure Sharmba Mitchell wasn't better than Judah although Zab is a legend and a great humanitarian.

Tszyus best win was probably against Gonzalez who made 10 or so defences at 135 pounds. Mitchell was a better boxer substantively than Judah. Judah at his peak first time at 140 was dangerous. I dont see this current version of Juda beating alot of guys Tszyu beat. Hes damaged goods, so no, beating Judah doesnt make you great. What was more significant is he unified all three titles. At the time Judah looked to be a killer, in hindsight, there was only ever going to be the same winner in that fight anyway you look at it.

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Originally Posted by KostyaTszyuTeam

Mitchell was a better boxer substantively than Judah.

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The same Mitchell he beat 7 months before Hatton and then suddenly for some unknown reason became a hot fighter afterwards ;)

Gonzalez had already been taken apart by De La Hoya and drawn with an ancient Chavez that had also already been battered by DLH

Hatton would have always been trouble for Tsyzu because Tsyzu didn't have a great inside game and he didn't have quick feet, Hatton always did so he could get inside on Kostya just as long as he didn't get caught with too many rights on the way in. Once he got there the straight right was neutralized for the most part.

Look at some other guys Ricky's fought. Floyd's got a very underrated inside game. Manny is always on his toes, very quick feet meaning he can control distance better. Kostya would have always been a better matchup for Ricky than either of those guys.

I can't believe I'm still discussing this, I said this on here like four years ago.

Yes, the same Mitchell who was the no1 fighter in boxings then deepest division. Tszyu nailed Mitchell, but didnt have to fight many rounds, so dont know what he wouldve looked like deep into a fight. Hadnt fought in nealy 2 years.

As for Gonzalez, a prime De La Hoya decisioned him in a close fight, there wasnt anything dominate about it for Oscar. That is why, many thoughy Gonxalez would be too much for Tszyu. The draw with Cagvez wasnt also a draw, you know how the refs are. I suppose Chavez really drew with Whittaker too, but that was so far inaccurate, it was embarrassing.

Maybe both guys suck. Maybe they are about even Hatton and Tszyu interms of beig overrated. Kostya did reign for a very very long time which is undisputed. Hatton has done more interms of angling for the big fights in two weight classes, and has come up humbely short both times by a landslide. Kostya has never been dropped for a KO. He was still on his feet when Phillips TKO him, and QUIT on his stool.

They have had different careers. Neither Tszyu nor Hatton will be rated above Pacquiao and Mayweather. Kostya did his thing, Ricky his own too. Tszyu has a longer resume. I dont even know if Hatton cares to fight into his early 30s, let alone mid 30s.

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Originally Posted by KostyaTszyuTeam

Yes, the same Mitchell who was the no1 fighter in boxings then deepest division. Tszyu nailed Mitchell, but didnt have to fight many rounds, so dont know what he wouldve looked like deep into a fight. Hadnt fought in nealy 2 years.

As for Gonzalez, a prime De La Hoya decisioned him in a close fight, there wasnt anything dominate about it for Oscar. That is why, many thoughy Gonxalez would be too much for Tszyu. The draw with Cagvez wasnt also a draw, you know how the refs are. I suppose Chavez really drew with Whittaker too, but that was so far inaccurate, it was embarrassing.

Maybe both guys suck. Maybe they are about even Hatton and Tszyu interms of beig overrated. Kostya did reign for a very very long time which is undisputed. Hatton has done more interms of angling for the big fights in two weight classes, and has come up humbely short both times by a landslide. Kostya has never been dropped for a KO. He was still on his feet when Phillips TKO him, and QUIT on his stool.

They have had different careers. Neither Tszyu nor Hatton will be rated above Pacquiao and Mayweather. Kostya did his thing, Ricky his own too. Tszyu has a longer resume. I dont even know if Hatton cares to fight into his early 30s, let alone mid 30s.

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Clearly this other thread has all the answers

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...b-fighter.html

It's interesting how many Tszyu threads have been posted recently since the Hatton demolition by Pacquiao. Should Tszyu's legacy be looked at because Hatton failed in a fight 4 years later? No is the appropriate answer, Hatton beat Tszyu in 2005, i won't say fair and square because it wasn't, but the result shows Hatton as the winner. Tszyu retires and why not, what else was there to prove? Undisputed 140lb Champion and a division champion for 10 years, FFS what do people want from this guy? He beats Juan La Porte in his 4th pro fight, then fights 16 world champions throughout his career. He missed the big ones through no fault of his own as DLH and Mosley chose to conveniently sidestep him to establish there own reputations and certainly didn't want Tszyu to throw a spanner in the works. Tszyu started late in the professional ring, i think he was 23 on debut in 1992 and i believe we never really saw the best of him, we saw moments of it, Gonzalez, Judah and Mitchell 2. Both Forrest and Millet got nowhere near him in the amateurs and all that really got the better of him was age and injury. Pushing 36, having just fought 3 rounds in 2 and half years, coming back from injury and fighting a young gun like Hatton on his own turf was in hindsight a mistake. It also didn't help wearing your balls as earrings throughout the fight either. Of course Tszyu is an all time great, tell me the last 10 year divsion champion and undisputed champion who isn't?? Judah himself is a former undisputed Welterweight champion of the world. A KO in 2 rounds over someone like that isn't bad on anyones resume.

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Originally Posted by KostyaTszyuTeam

Yes, the same Mitchell who was the no1 fighter in boxings then deepest division. Tszyu nailed Mitchell, but didnt have to fight many rounds, so dont know what he wouldve looked like deep into a fight. Hadnt fought in nealy 2 years.

As for Gonzalez, a prime De La Hoya decisioned him in a close fight, there wasnt anything dominate about it for Oscar. That is why, many thoughy Gonxalez would be too much for Tszyu. The draw with Cagvez wasnt also a draw, you know how the refs are. I suppose Chavez really drew with Whittaker too, but that was so far inaccurate, it was embarrassing.

Maybe both guys suck. Maybe they are about even Hatton and Tszyu interms of beig overrated. Kostya did reign for a very very long time which is undisputed. Hatton has done more interms of angling for the big fights in two weight classes, and has come up humbely short both times by a landslide. Kostya has never been dropped for a KO. He was still on his feet when Phillips TKO him, and QUIT on his stool.

They have had different careers. Neither Tszyu nor Hatton will be rated above Pacquiao and Mayweather. Kostya did his thing, Ricky his own too. Tszyu has a longer resume. I dont even know if Hatton cares to fight into his early 30s, let alone mid 30s.

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Should've been pretty fresh rather than suddenly old and shot. No?

This Kostya Tszyu fan boy can give all the stats he wants, but the fact is Kostya Tszyu isn't an ATG. Most of his best wins were against faded fighters like Livingstone Bramble, JCC, Roger Mayweather, Juan La Porte, Jesse James Leija.

Thats why it makes me laugh when people say Ricky Hatton beat a faded Kostya Tszyu, because most of Kostya Tszyu's best wins were against faded fighters yet i never hear them admit it.

He had some good wins over Disobelys Hurtado, Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Rafael Ruelas. But does that make you an ATG ? and he also got beat badly in his prime by a hot and cold fighter like Vince Phillips. Which hurts his legacy.

I do like Kostya Tszyu but IMO he was a bit lucky to meet some of the names i mentioned above. When they had clearly seen better days, Kostya Tszyu was a very good champion but never a great one.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

So we are either talking about Kostya or Floyd. Either way, I'm not sure Zab was their best win. In the case of KT, he faced an undefeated 140lb version of Judah. Peoples perception of Judah at that time was totally different, and KT had plenty of other wins of that were equal or better. As for Mayweather, his wins over Chico, Castillo, Oscar, and Hatton are better wins than the Judah win.

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What does the public's perception of somebody count for in the ring? ???

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Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonzalez had already been taken apart by De La Hoya and drawn with an ancient Chavez that had also already been battered by DLH

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And by Tszyu.

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Originally Posted by ICB

This Kostya Tszyu fan boy can give all the stats he wants, but the fact is Kostya Tszyu isn't an ATG. Most of his best wins were against faded fighters like Livingstone Bramble, JCC, Roger Mayweather, Juan La Porte, Jesse James Leija.

Thats why it makes me laugh when people say Ricky Hatton beat a faded Kostya Tszyu, because most of Kostya Tszyu's best wins were against faded fighters yet i never hear them admit it.

He had some good wins over Disobelys Hurtado, Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Rafael Ruelas. But does that make you an ATG ? and he also got beat badly in his prime by a hot and cold fighter like Vince Phillips. Which hurts his legacy.

I do like Kostya Tszyu but IMO he was a bit lucky to meet some of the names i mentioned above. When they had clearly seen better days, Kostya Tszyu was a very good champion but never a great one.

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Yeah people throw the word great around too easily.
Its stealing from the all time greats.

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Originally Posted by ICB

This Kostya Tszyu fan boy can give all the stats he wants, but the fact is Kostya Tszyu isn't an ATG. Most of his best wins were against faded fighters like Livingstone Bramble, JCC, Roger Mayweather, Juan La Porte, Jesse James Leija.

Thats why it makes me laugh when people say Ricky Hatton beat a faded Kostya Tszyu, because most of Kostya Tszyu's best wins were against faded fighters yet i never hear them admit it.

He had some good wins over Disobelys Hurtado, Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Rafael Ruelas. But does that make you an ATG ? and he also got beat badly in his prime by a hot and cold fighter like Vince Phillips. Which hurts his legacy.

I do like Kostya Tszyu but IMO he was a bit lucky to meet some of the names i mentioned above. When they had clearly seen better days, Kostya Tszyu was a very good champion but never a great one.

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I have to disagree with you here, as i said earlier how can a 10 year division champion and a 4 year undisputed champion at 140lb not be considered an ATG? If defies logic to argue against it? As for the Phillips loss? who cares? tell that to Alexis Arguello who lost to Vilomar Fernandez in 1978 right in the middle of Arguello prime, or Roberto Duran who managed to lose to Kirkland Laing when he needed to resurrect his career after 'No Mas', Lennox Lewis gets KO'ed by Oliver McCall a journeyman at best, there are many more. Losing to fighters with less ability does not damage your legacy if it happens just the once. Thomas Hearns lost to Iran Barkley TWICE yet i am willing to bet that no one on this forum would rank Iran Barkley as an ATG yet Thomas Hearns would be. What makes Tszyu an ATG great is he came back from that defeat and unified a championship title belt and beat the best out there at the time to do it. As for fighting fading champions, DLH didn't do to badly in that department either, Whitaker was in decline and Chavez twice and Camacho were well past it when he fought them. The only thing missing from the Tszyu resume was a fight with Mosley or DLH and unfortunately it didn't happen.