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If Mosley and Pacquiao meet at a catch weight of 144.5 splitting the welterweight limits.
Will the 147 Titles and the 140 Titles be up for grabs here because it is all the welterweight class, Right?
Do they have to agree to put up their titles or is it up to the sanctioning bodies? I'm sure they are going to ask for their cut.
And what about the Ring belt?
Does it not defeat the purpose of having the weight class?
I was going to ask this same question. I know the 140lb IBO belt and Ring belt won't be on the line as its above the 140lb limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
I'm not sure were the sanctioning bodies stand on this issue. Technically, it would be under 147 so the belt could be on the line, but if the contractual weight is not 147 then I'm unsure if they'd sanction it. If it was the Ring belt (which it won't be), then it would be on the line because Hopkins fought Wright at 170 for the Light-Heavy ring belt.
It would be to all the parties involved.
I'm sure as long as EVERYONE get's a piece of the $ pie $ they can come to an agreement.
SRL-Lanlonde was for 2 titles in 2 different classes BUT they both had to weigh in twice and weigh in at each weight class.
For example SSM & Pac would both have to weigh in at the 140 limit then go and weigh in again to the 147 limit.
I think Hopkins wanted to do the same when he was gonna fight Joe.
He wanted to have both his Light Heavy titles along with Joes Super Middle titles on the line.
It's possible...
I think that shouldn't be the case, however, I am not sure if its not hte case. It doesn't make sense for Mosley to win the 140 pound belt because he couldn't defend it or make that weight, and if Pacquiao isn't fighting Mosley at the 147 pound limit, he shouldn't get the belt that says he did.
I do not think it should be allowed one fight at one weight for one title.
It was Jones that wanted to do that, but Calzaghe had already given up his belts.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Only the welterweight (147) belts could be up for grabs. Anything between 140 and 147 is a welterweight regardless of whether or not the fighters concerned agree to weigh in at 145 or whatever.
Anywhere in that seven pound margin and youre a welterweight.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... if Pac wants to claim that he has a won a belt at welter and beaten a welter weight fighter then he HAS to let them fight at 147...
If he doesn't want to fight a 147 pound fighter then he should stop fucking about with/talking about Welterweights.
There's no shame in simply not being big enough but don't try to mug people off.
You want to move up a weight class then you let the opposition fight at what ever weight within that limit they want... otherwise why should you have the right to their belt if it's not at their weight?...
For example is David Haye trying to get Wlad to fight at a catch weight closer to cruiser weight?
Is he fuck.
Roach knows what he's doing and luckily Pac is such a big draw that the money is enough to tempt these guys to weight drain themselves
Unless the rules have been changed at a catchweight there is no title on the line. Reason being is they would both be over the 140 pound limit so that is a given as to why. And even though for the sake of a call anything between 140 and 147 is welterweight there would be no welterweight title on the line because Mosley is not allowed to make welterweight limit. If the welterweight title were allowed to be on the line then technically Mosley could lose the title on the scale without even weighing over 147. That would be a contradiction of the rules. Although I have heard that nowadays you can do just about anything if its in the contract and the influence of big money is involved. Boxing has bent a lot of rules. So I wouldn't be surprised if even a sanctioning body allowed the lower weight to be on the line. This would be a cheating way to get a higher belt because Pac is not really fighting a welterweight.
Ok, now I'm really confused :confused: I thought the welterweight class was 140 to 147 and 147 being the maximum. 140 being the minimum. If a fighter comes in lower than the 140 the fight is a NC? (Boxing commission) So I can't understand why Mosley's title wouldn't be at risk since it is still a welterweight bout? I thought that the catch weight is a contractual agreement for maximum official weigh-in weight between the fighters. If he weighs in above the catch weight limit but under the 147 limit wouldn't it just be called a NC, if Pacquiao says no because it's in his contract?Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
If I understand correctly you're saying that the sanctioning body has to agree to modify the rules to suit the fighters agreement. (Is that even legally possible) I would think that if Mosley didn't make the catch weight but made the welterweight limit then contractually the fight would be ruled a NC, rather than him losing the belt.
agreed, you want a welterweight strap, you do it at welterweight, people try to thrash Mayweather all the time but hey, he wanted the 5 titles in 5 weight classes thing, he went up to 154 to fight Oscar, IMO PAC's gonna have to do the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Dude! Mayweather went up 1 weightclass after fighting 3 fights at welter for two and a half years. Do you realize Pac came up from 135 and was 130 one fight before that in less than 9 months to face De la Hoya? He met De La Hoya going down 1 weight class as Pacquiao's was going up 2 weight classes. Who does that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesagreed, you want a welterweight strap, you do it at welterweight, people try to thrash Mayweather all the time but hey, he wanted the 5 titles in 5 weight classes thing, he went up to 154 to fight Oscar, IMO PAC's gonna have to do the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Shane Mosley, oh a minus the DLH having to go down to a weight class he hadn't fought at for nearly a decadeQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyDude! Mayweather went up 1 weightclass after fighting 3 fights at welter for two and a half years. Do you realize Pac came up from 135 and was 130 one fight before that in less than 9 months to face De la Hoya? He met De La Hoya going down 1 weight class as Pacquiao's was going up 2 weight classes. Who does that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesagreed, you want a welterweight strap, you do it at welterweight, people try to thrash Mayweather all the time but hey, he wanted the 5 titles in 5 weight classes thing, he went up to 154 to fight Oscar, IMO PAC's gonna have to do the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Mosley would make 144 even just fine, stop making excuses.
:vd: The only reason he hasn't asked for that is cuz there is no catch weight between Cruiser and Heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Pac beat in Roach own words "a walking dead man". Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez would of done the same. It's not impressive once you look at the factsQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyDude! Mayweather went up 1 weightclass after fighting 3 fights at welter for two and a half years. Do you realize Pac came up from 135 and was 130 one fight before that in less than 9 months to face De la Hoya? He met De La Hoya going down 1 weight class as Pacquiao's was going up 2 weight classes. Who does that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesagreed, you want a welterweight strap, you do it at welterweight, people try to thrash Mayweather all the time but hey, he wanted the 5 titles in 5 weight classes thing, he went up to 154 to fight Oscar, IMO PAC's gonna have to do the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Your nuts!, but your absolutely right! It's more impressive to watch....Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemisePac beat in Roach own words "a walking dead man". Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez would of done the same. It's not impressive once you look at the factsQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyDude! Mayweather went up 1 weightclass after fighting 3 fights at welter for two and a half years. Do you realize Pac came up from 135 and was 130 one fight before that in less than 9 months to face De la Hoya? He met De La Hoya going down 1 weight class as Pacquiao's was going up 2 weight classes. Who does that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
If Mosley has to make 140, he's fucked. I'd give him almost no chance vs. Pac if he has to hit 140 to make weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
No wonder you're hard to take seriously... you don't even understand how a catch weight works. (Either that or the mention of a British fighter scrambled your ability to comprehend some simple numbers)Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise:vd: The only reason he hasn't asked for that is cuz there is no catch weight between Cruiser and Heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
There's no 'standard' catch weight... it's purely contractual... it doesn't have to be exactly in the middle of two weight classes. It's what ever the two parties agree on.
pac could ask Mosely for 144 145 146, fuck even 146.9, as long as it falls within the weight division... to fight as a welterweight you just have to be 141+
Just because the Heavyweight division has no upper limit it does not mean that two parties could agree to fight at a certain weight.
No Catch weight to fight at?... :rolleyes:
I thought you were a businessman VD? Surely you know that there are quite a few numbers that exist between haye's 200 and Wlad's 245? 44 to be exact.
Or because you're such a high roller do you only work in 50s?
But of course this is all hypothetical, my point is that Haye isn't a big enough draw to be able to use $$$ to weight drain Wlad but Pac is more than a big enough draw to tempt any Welter to fight him weight drained and he deserves no respect if he does that.
The reasons Haye wouldn't have asked for a catch weight is because a) Wlad would just laugh at him... Haye isn't worth that much $$$... how the fuck is he going to dictate to Wlad what he fights at?! and b) because Haye wants to fight Wlad at his best. Not because the numbers:
201-243
don't exist as you seem to think. :rolleyes:
Also how could a catchweight happen inbetween a weight class? What number exists between 140 (Light Welter) and ANYTHING over 140 (Welter)? ??? catch weights are made WITH IN weight classes (simply because basic numerical principles make it impossible for them to be made anywhere else) so I don't see how that is a problem in the heavyweight division... given it has a fucking UNLIMTED upper weight.
Give me a break, Oscar on that night would have killed Rafael or Israel or JMM, Manny was the one who could capatalize on Oscar because of his speed and in and out ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemisePac beat in Roach own words "a walking dead man". Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez would of done the same. It's not impressive once you look at the factsQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyDude! Mayweather went up 1 weightclass after fighting 3 fights at welter for two and a half years. Do you realize Pac came up from 135 and was 130 one fight before that in less than 9 months to face De la Hoya? He met De La Hoya going down 1 weight class as Pacquiao's was going up 2 weight classes. Who does that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMorales
Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
Your thinking too hard, dont be stupid, its black and white, they would be fighting whithin the welterweight limit, over light welter and under welter, soit would be a welter title fight:rolleyes:
:pointsnew: ahahahahahaha :lolhaha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise:vd: The only reason he hasn't asked for that is cuz there is no catch weight between Cruiser and Heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
:lolhaha: :lolhaha: :lolhaha: :lolhaha: :lolhaha:
I asume you're laughing at VD :confused:
Of course you can't have a fucking catchweight set inbetween between 200lbs and... 200lbs.
That would be pretty fucking hard. :rolleyes:
A catchweight is just any mutually contracted weight, the weight class it falls within is merely a technicality.
The Heavyweight division starts at 200.1lbs and goes all the way up to... fucking infinite lbs.
That's quite a lot of fucking choice if you decide you want to fight at a catchweight that falls within heavyweight. :rolleyes:
:vd: It's obvious you never Boxed before. You have no idea the condition Oscar was in. He couldn't defend himself. He was dead. Nobody knew how bad it was except Roach. Roach said it himself the fight would of never happened if Oscar was still a threat. So in reality Pac beat a man who was incapable of fighting back. Wow. How much longer you going to suck his dikk for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethGive me a break, Oscar on that night would have killed Rafael or Israel or JMM, Manny was the one who could capatalize on Oscar because of his speed and in and out ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemisePac beat in Roach own words "a walking dead man". Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez would of done the same. It's not impressive once you look at the factsQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
He's laughing at the stupidity of even bringging it up. There heavyweights for a fukking reason. You can't compare it to other divisions. And it's stupid to try. I can see it nowQuote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Haye: I want to fight for your title Wlad. But i don't feel comfortable with you being so heavy. You think you can do me a favor and come in at like 215 or 220?
How stupid is that? Do yourself a favor and admit it was an idiotic example and save what little dignity you have left
If the bout is made, they will step into the ring above the 147 welter limit and not at the catch weight limit. So I'd say you're making a bit too much out of the catch weight as far as insisting Pacquiao fight 147 pounders because isn't what you are effectively saying is that he step into the ring against a bigger fighter to get credit for the win. Welter is 140-147. I read Mosley stepped into the ring against Margarito at 160. (verify) Mosley would surely step into the ring above 154 and Pacquiao below 150. I'd say Roach contractually protecting his fighter is absolutely the right thing to do professionally and the right thing to do morally.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The fair thing for weight classes would be for fighters to step into the ring under the limit, but because of the way fighters try to gain an advantage, the rules are such as they are for safety. The topic is not so pertinent amongst fighters that meet mid range of the weight class but when fighters meet coming from the extremes of the weight class it gets really hot.
ummm, so true. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethGive me a break, Oscar on that night would have killed Rafael or Israel or JMM, Manny was the one who could capatalize on Oscar because of his speed and in and out ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemisePac beat in Roach own words "a walking dead man". Rafael Marquez and Israel Vazquez would of done the same. It's not impressive once you look at the factsQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
Fighters always step into the ring heavier on fight night than the do on the day of the weigh in, this isn't news and it's besides the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyIf the bout is made, they will step into the ring above the 147 welter limit and not at the catch weight limit. So I'd say you're making a bit too much out of the catch weight as far as insisting Pacquiao fight 147 pounders because isn't what you are effectively saying is that he step into the ring against a bigger fighter to get credit for the win. Welter is 140-147. I read Mosley stepped into the ring against Margarito at 160. (verify) Mosley would surely step into the ring above 154 and Pacquiao below 150. I'd say Roach contractually protecting his fighter is absolutely the right thing to do professionally and the right thing to do morally.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The fair thing for weight classes would be for fighters to step into the ring under the limit, but because of the way fighters try to gain an advantage, the rules are such as they are for safety. The topic is not so pertinent amongst fighters that meet mid range of the weight class but when fighters meet coming from the extremes of the weight class it gets really hot.
Do you have any idea how much it takes out of having to force yourself down to a weight for a weigh in? It takes a lot out of you... the further you go from your natural weight the harder it's going to be to rehydrate and refuel afterwards and the weaker you are going to be.
That's exactly my point you moron. Thank you. It's exactly what the Pac camp is trying to do because they have the $$$ to get away with it and it stinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise:vd: It's obvious you never Boxed before. You have no idea the condition Oscar was in. He couldn't defend himself. He was dead. Nobody knew how bad it was except Roach. Roach said it himself the fight would of never happened if Oscar was still a threat. So in reality Pac beat a man who was incapable of fighting back. Wow. How much longer you going to suck his dikk for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethGive me a break, Oscar on that night would have killed Rafael or Israel or JMM, Manny was the one who could capatalize on Oscar because of his speed and in and out ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Haye: I want to fight for your title Wlad. But i don't feel comfortable with you being so heavy. You think you can do me a favor and come in at like 215 or 220?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
How stupid is that? Do yourself a favor and admit it was an idiotic example and save what little dignity you have left
Apparently we can also add reading comprehension to the list of things too perplexing for VD, along with numeracy.
I wish that he would just fight Mosely at the 147 limit its for the title and why would he not go up to the weight and try to beat Mosely. I mean its seem kinda of chicken shit to me but o well it all about money anyhow. I mean you imagine Hagler fighting Leonard form a catch weight guys.
I don't agree with Pac coward move of trying to get Mosley at a catch weight. But as a smaller fighter the option is there. The option doesn't exist at Heavyweight. It was a stupid ass example. Accept it. And move the fukk on.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBFighters always step into the ring heavier on fight night than the do on the day of the weigh in, this isn't news and it's besides the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyIf the bout is made, they will step into the ring above the 147 welter limit and not at the catch weight limit. So I'd say you're making a bit too much out of the catch weight as far as insisting Pacquiao fight 147 pounders because isn't what you are effectively saying is that he step into the ring against a bigger fighter to get credit for the win. Welter is 140-147. I read Mosley stepped into the ring against Margarito at 160. (verify) Mosley would surely step into the ring above 154 and Pacquiao below 150. I'd say Roach contractually protecting his fighter is absolutely the right thing to do professionally and the right thing to do morally.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The fair thing for weight classes would be for fighters to step into the ring under the limit, but because of the way fighters try to gain an advantage, the rules are such as they are for safety. The topic is not so pertinent amongst fighters that meet mid range of the weight class but when fighters meet coming from the extremes of the weight class it gets really hot.
Do you have any idea how much it takes out of having to force yourself down to a weight for a weigh in? It takes a lot out of you... the further you go from your natural weight the harder it's going to be to rehydrate and refuel afterwards and the weaker you are going to be.
That's exactly my point you moron. Thank you. It's exactly what the Pac camp is trying to do because they have the $$$ to get away with it and it stinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
:vd: It's obvious you never Boxed before. You have no idea the condition Oscar was in. He couldn't defend himself. He was dead. Nobody knew how bad it was except Roach. Roach said it himself the fight would of never happened if Oscar was still a threat. So in reality Pac beat a man who was incapable of fighting back. Wow. How much longer you going to suck his dikk for it?
Haye: I want to fight for your title Wlad. But i don't feel comfortable with you being so heavy. You think you can do me a favor and come in at like 215 or 220?Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
How stupid is that? Do yourself a favor and admit it was an idiotic example and save what little dignity you have left
Apparently we can also add reading comprehension to the list of things too perplexing for VD, along with numeracy.
Let me get your opinion into focus, You're stating that Mosley having to shed 2-3 pounds more for Pacquiao than when he fought Margarito is going to weight drain Mosley? ah.. ok then, I get it. I think it a stretch but I get it....Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
:vd: :vd: :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe option doesn't exist at Heavyweight..Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBFighters always step into the ring heavier on fight night than the do on the day of the weigh in, this isn't news and it's besides the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
Do you have any idea how much it takes out of having to force yourself down to a weight for a weigh in? It takes a lot out of you... the further you go from your natural weight the harder it's going to be to rehydrate and refuel afterwards and the weaker you are going to be.
That's exactly my point you moron. Thank you. It's exactly what the Pac camp is trying to do because they have the $$$ to get away with it and it stinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Apparently we can also add reading comprehension to the list of things too perplexing for VD, along with numeracy.
As I have explained twice already there are 43 'options' to chose from for a Hypothetical catchweight that fall within the difference between Haye's 200 and Wlad's 245.
Pick one. :rolleyes:
Please don't try and put anything into focus for me unless you've studied as much Anatomy and Physiology as I have... you may be punching a bit above your weight. :) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyLet me get your opinion into focus, You're stating that Mosley having to shed 2-3 pounds more for Pacquiao than when he fought Margarito is going to weight drain Mosley? ah.. ok then, I get it. I think it a stretch but I get it....Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
It's not at all stretch, he walks around at 160+ pounds... the lower you get the more each pound counts. After a certain point every ounce you lose is fluid/glycogen stored in the blood and muscles that the body needs to have a certain level of to function correctly.
It can take a person who hasn't been drinking enough water in their diet SIX WEEKS to become properly hydrated... these guys have 24 hours to rehydrate and they haven't just became partially dehydrated from poor water intake... they have forced it all out.
ODLH struggled so much he had to rehydrate by injecting himself with an IV line and having fluids fed into his veins. Sound fun? ;)
I don't think you understand how hard it can be to loose the last couple of pounds if it's too low for you, it's completely unatural.
You can't just keep on saying 'It's only a few more pounds' there has to be a cut off point and Roach is making out it's only a few pounds when really he's hoping that a few more pounds.
The majority of fighters are already fighting as low as they can healthy get to in an effort to be naturally stronger than everybody else at the weight so it REALLY doesn't take much for it to be a few pounds too far.
Why do you think that from Strawweight to Featherweight only 4... sometimes even only 3 pounds divide each weight class?
Or let me put it like this: If they are going to be heavier on fight night anyway what motive does Roach have for asking him to weigh in at 144? If it wasn't going to affect Mosely then they wouldn't bother to ask.
With the right people Mosely may be able to rehydrate properly... the lower he goes the harder it is and ODLH was also meant to have the right people around him... look how that turned out.
The subject is Mosley vs Pacquiao, not Pacquiao vs ODLH. The subject is a welterweight fight with a catchweight limit. The subject is not who has more Anatomy and Physiology knowledge for that you can start another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB:vd: :vd: :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent DemiseThe option doesn't exist at Heavyweight..Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
As I have explained twice already there are 43 'options' to chose from for a Hypothetical catchweight that fall within the difference between Haye's 200 and Wlad's 245.
Pick one. :rolleyes:
Please don't try and put anything into focus for me unless you've studied as much Anatomy and Physiology as I have... you may be punching a bit above your weight. :) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyLet me get your opinion into focus, You're stating that Mosley having to shed 2-3 pounds more for Pacquiao than when he fought Margarito is going to weight drain Mosley? ah.. ok then, I get it. I think it a stretch but I get it....Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
It's not at all stretch, he walks around at 160+ pounds... the lower you get the more each pound counts. After a certain point every ounce you lose is fluid/glycogen stored in the blood and muscles that the body needs to have a certain level of to function correctly.
It can take a person who hasn't been drinking enough water in their diet SIX WEEKS to become properly hydrated... these guys have 24 hours to rehydrate and they haven't just became partially dehydrated from poor water intake... they have forced it all out.
ODLH struggled so much he had to rehydrate by injecting himself with an IV line and having fluids fed into his veins. Sound fun? ;)
I don't think you understand how hard it can be to loose the last couple of pounds if it's too low for you, it's completely unatural.
You can't just keep on saying 'It's only a few more pounds' there has to be a cut off point and Roach is making out it's only a few pounds when really he's hoping that a few more pounds.
The majority of fighters are already fighting as low as they can healthy get to in an effort to be naturally stronger than everybody else at the weight so it REALLY doesn't take much for it to be a few pounds too far.
Why do you think that from Strawweight to Featherweight only 4... sometimes even only 3 pounds divide each weight class?
Or let me put it like this: If they are going to be heavier on fight night anyway what motive does Roach have for asking him to weigh in at 144? If it wasn't going to affect Mosely then they wouldn't bother to ask.
With the right people Mosely may be able to rehydrate properly... the lower he goes the harder it is and ODLH was also meant to have the right people around him... look how that turned out.
147-145=2, 147-144=3. that's a few pounds. It's called math. Is Mosley a welterweight or not? If he is a "Middleweight" you have a valid argument and Mosley shouldn't be fighting at welter should he.
The catch weight will most likely be made at 144/145. Welter is 140 to 147. You wrote this how many times? You don't want to focus the subject because you want to mislead the point, just own up to it you want an excuse if Pacquiao beats Mosley!
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. A few pounds can make a huge difference, especially in a fighter like Mosley who is both very old in boxing terms relative to his competition and who has been competiting at 147 or above since 1999.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyThe subject is Mosley vs Pacquiao, not Pacquiao vs ODLH. The subject is a welterweight fight with a catchweight limit. The subject is not who has more Anatomy and Physiology knowledge for that you can start another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB:vd: :vd: :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
As I have explained twice already there are 43 'options' to chose from for a Hypothetical catchweight that fall within the difference between Haye's 200 and Wlad's 245.
Pick one. :rolleyes:
Please don't try and put anything into focus for me unless you've studied as much Anatomy and Physiology as I have... you may be punching a bit above your weight. :) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
It's not at all stretch, he walks around at 160+ pounds... the lower you get the more each pound counts. After a certain point every ounce you lose is fluid/glycogen stored in the blood and muscles that the body needs to have a certain level of to function correctly.
It can take a person who hasn't been drinking enough water in their diet SIX WEEKS to become properly hydrated... these guys have 24 hours to rehydrate and they haven't just became partially dehydrated from poor water intake... they have forced it all out.
ODLH struggled so much he had to rehydrate by injecting himself with an IV line and having fluids fed into his veins. Sound fun? ;)
I don't think you understand how hard it can be to loose the last couple of pounds if it's too low for you, it's completely unatural.
You can't just keep on saying 'It's only a few more pounds' there has to be a cut off point and Roach is making out it's only a few pounds when really he's hoping that a few more pounds.
The majority of fighters are already fighting as low as they can healthy get to in an effort to be naturally stronger than everybody else at the weight so it REALLY doesn't take much for it to be a few pounds too far.
Why do you think that from Strawweight to Featherweight only 4... sometimes even only 3 pounds divide each weight class?
Or let me put it like this: If they are going to be heavier on fight night anyway what motive does Roach have for asking him to weigh in at 144? If it wasn't going to affect Mosely then they wouldn't bother to ask.
With the right people Mosely may be able to rehydrate properly... the lower he goes the harder it is and ODLH was also meant to have the right people around him... look how that turned out.
147-145=2, 147-144=3. that's a few pounds. It's called math. Is Mosley a welterweight or not? If he is a "Middleweight" you have a valid argument and Mosley shouldn't be fighting at welter should he.
The catch weight will most likely be made at 144/145. Welter is 140 to 147. You wrote this how many times? You don't want to focus the subject because you want to mislead the point, just own up to it you want an excuse if Pacquiao beats Mosley!
I know exactly what I'm talking about, perhaps you are just having problems reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
From your statement, I see that you also think Mosley shouldn't be fighting at Welterweight either.
You can be of the opinion that Mosley can't make the catchweigh and not weight drained. but I think it's a stretch. Mosley met Cotto at 146.25, Mosley will be fine at 144/145 catchweigh.
Where did I say that? Mosley has proven that he is fine at 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyI know exactly what I'm talking about, perhaps you are just having problems reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
From your statement, I see that you also think Mosley shouldn't be fighting at Welterweight either.
You can be of the opinion that Mosley can't make the catchweigh and not weight drained. but I think it's a stretch. Mosley met Cotto at 146.25, Mosley will be fine at 144/145 catchweigh.
To address your other points, Adam already explained how even a few pounds can make a big difference for a fighter. If you can't understand (or admit) that then there is no reason to continue this discussion with you.
I've made my points in bold text above ^.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyThe subject is Mosley vs Pacquiao, not Pacquiao vs ODLH. I am using that as an example for you as to how a weight drained fighter will perform... it is entirely relevant The subject is a welterweight fight with a catchweight limit. The subject is not who has more Anatomy and Physiology knowledge for that you can start another thread. No but I am backing up my statements with solid knowledge/understanding of how the body works and I don't see why I should not demonstrate this or your lack of credibilaty to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB:vd: :vd: :vd:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
As I have explained twice already there are 43 'options' to chose from for a Hypothetical catchweight that fall within the difference between Haye's 200 and Wlad's 245.
Pick one. :rolleyes:
Please don't try and put anything into focus for me unless you've studied as much Anatomy and Physiology as I have... you may be punching a bit above your weight. :) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
It's not at all stretch, he walks around at 160+ pounds... the lower you get the more each pound counts. After a certain point every ounce you lose is fluid/glycogen stored in the blood and muscles that the body needs to have a certain level of to function correctly.
It can take a person who hasn't been drinking enough water in their diet SIX WEEKS to become properly hydrated... these guys have 24 hours to rehydrate and they haven't just became partially dehydrated from poor water intake... they have forced it all out.
ODLH struggled so much he had to rehydrate by injecting himself with an IV line and having fluids fed into his veins. Sound fun? ;)
I don't think you understand how hard it can be to loose the last couple of pounds if it's too low for you, it's completely unatural.
You can't just keep on saying 'It's only a few more pounds' there has to be a cut off point and Roach is making out it's only a few pounds when really he's hoping that a few more pounds.
The majority of fighters are already fighting as low as they can healthy get to in an effort to be naturally stronger than everybody else at the weight so it REALLY doesn't take much for it to be a few pounds too far.
Why do you think that from Strawweight to Featherweight only 4... sometimes even only 3 pounds divide each weight class?
Or let me put it like this: If they are going to be heavier on fight night anyway what motive does Roach have for asking him to weigh in at 144? If it wasn't going to affect Mosely then they wouldn't bother to ask.
With the right people Mosely may be able to rehydrate properly... the lower he goes the harder it is and ODLH was also meant to have the right people around him... look how that turned out.
147-145=2, 147-144=3. that's a few pounds. no shit It's called math. No it's called mathS... ;) Is Mosley a welterweight or not? At the moment he is fighting as one, yes If he is a "Middleweight" you have a valid argument and Mosley shouldn't be fighting at welter should he.
You clearly don't understand how a boxer drys up for a weigh in... Welter weights usually train down to something under 160 pounds then sweat the rest off JUST FOR THE SCALES... If he was a middle Weight he'd WALK AROUND closer to 175. When you're training down to an approximate weight in camp every pound doesn't count AS MUCH... but once you're boiling down for the weigh in EVERY pound counts.
The catch weight will most likely be made at 144/145. Welter is 140 to 147. You wrote this how many times? I know that 145 is WITHIN the division... what is your point exactly? You don't want to focus the subject because you want to mislead the point, just own up to it you want an excuse if Pacquiao beats Mosley! Why would I want an excuse? I am completely neutral... I like both fighters equally, if Pac is going to talk about getting a welterweight title then the opponent should be allowed to fight at any weight up to and including 147... why wouldn't I want to give him credit? as long as he does it properly...
Seeing as you don't understand how weighing in a boiling down work or affect the body I'm going to simplify my point to you (as well as repeat a question you haven't answered yet...) :
if it's 'only' 2-3 pounds and they aren't going to affect Mosely then why would the Pac camp even bother asking for it? It makes them look bad for asking, so if Mosely will be as good at 144 pounds as he is at 147 then wouldn't they just save the embarrassment and not ask?
Again: they are asking for a catchweight because they know that Mosely will be better at 147 and worse at 144.
I'm sorry, you didn't, but your supporting the same argument that Mosley can't make shed the few pounds without being weight drained. If that is true, then Mosley shouldn't be fighting at Welterweight. Is that not what part of what weightclasses are about? "To keep fighters from having an unfair weight advantage".Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWhere did I say that? Mosley has proven that he is fine at 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyI know exactly what I'm talking about, perhaps you are just having problems reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
From your statement, I see that you also think Mosley shouldn't be fighting at Welterweight either.
You can be of the opinion that Mosley can't make the catchweigh and not weight drained. but I think it's a stretch. Mosley met Cotto at 146.25, Mosley will be fine at 144/145 catchweigh.
To address your other points, Adam already explained how even a few pounds can make a big difference for a fighter. If you can't understand (or admit) that then there is no reason to continue this discussion with you.
Now, I fully understand that it's a valid point for fighters below their weightclass but Mosley is fighting within his weightclass. To say that he'd be weight drained is just a premise for losing in advance.
If Mosley loses, he loses to a better fighter, not because he couldn't plan a proper weight program. Or do you think he's invested in the "De La Hoya fighter's netrution plan". If so it makes Mosley an idiot as well as a loser. Mosley doesn't strike me as an idiot.
Mosley can compete between 147 - 300 lbs if he wants, it's dropping below 147 which is going to make him weight drained. Just because he fights at both 154 and 147 safely does not mean he can fight below 147. That's a logical falicy. It's got nothing to do with a proper nutrition plan or anything like that, I'm sure De La Hoya had one of the worlds finest nutritionists set up his plan, there is no nutrition plan that can get a fighter to a weight to which he is physically unsuited and have him perform at his best. It's impossible, especially at Mosley's age and considering that he has not fought below 147 in 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyI'm sorry, you didn't, but your supporting the same argument that Mosley can't make shed the few pounds without being weight drained. If that is true, then Mosley shouldn't be fighting at Welterweight. Is that not what part of what weightclasses are about? "To keep fighters from having an unfair weight advantage".Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHWhere did I say that? Mosley has proven that he is fine at 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
To address your other points, Adam already explained how even a few pounds can make a big difference for a fighter. If you can't understand (or admit) that then there is no reason to continue this discussion with you.
Now, I fully understand that it's a valid point for fighters below their weightclass but Mosley is fighting within his weightclass. To say that he'd be weight drained is just a premise for losing in advance.
If Mosley loses, he loses to a better fighter, not because he couldn't plan a proper weight program. Or do you think he's invested in the "De La Hoya fighter's netrution plan". If so it makes Mosley an idiot as well as a loser. Mosley doesn't strike me as an idiot.
As for you last point, fighters almost always decide on the most profitable fights rather than the most intelligent (relative to their prospects of winning) ones. Is it smart for Mosley to fight Pac at 142/144 regarding his chances for victory? No, it's not, but I'm sure it makes a lot of sense financially. However, as a boxing fan I'm not all that interested in Mosley's finances, I want to see the best fighters fight eachother in the most competitive and fair environments. If Pac doesn't think he can compete at 147 then that's fair enough, stay at 140 and fight Marquez or Mayweather, I have no problem with that. But making welter's fight at weights in which they are not suited in unfair to those fighters and the only reason they would do it is because of the gold-plated carrot dangling in front of their noses.
If Pacquiao beats Mosley at 147, which I think he potentially could, I will give him all the credit in the world. If he beats Mosley below 147 it's a tainted victory in my opinion because he would not be facing the best Shane Mosley.
IMO, Mosley would be Pacquiao's toughest challenge and I'm sure if the fight happens, it has a good chance to make the distance and a very challenging and exciting fight to watch. If Mosley were to steps into the ring at 160 vs Pacquiao at 148, Mosley has an even bigger (unfair) advantage, how does that meet your criteria? Roach wouldn't be doing right by Pacquiao to let that happen. Isn't that what everyone was saying would be the case when Pac fought DLH?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
I see this as a difference of opinion. I feel that if a fighter cannot fight at any weight within the weightclass, he doesn't belong there. You guys appear to be on the other side of the coin on this one. i.e. Pac doesn't belong there. Hence we have the catchweight to even out the fight.
I don't believe, a catchweight of 145 or even 144 is going to drain him as you and Adam presuppose. (even with that expert opinion) If Mosley was forced to come down to 142, I could agree it's a bit much. Why, because his performance against Margarito was stellar at 147. I didn't see an ounce of weight drain in him in that fight. He fought Cotto at 146.25 in 2007, contrary to your early statement. I believe that all Roach is doing is lowering the handy cap against Mosley because he much bigger. What you guys are stating is just supposition based on a typical fighter which is a subjective opinion and not based on Mosley specific physiology or direct experience working with him.
My best guess is the fight happens at 145, possibly 144 if Mosley can't get Roach up any more, but it ain't going to happen at 42/43, and Roach already conceded 44 even stating it was negotiable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyIMO, Mosley would be Pacquiao's toughest challenge and I'm sure if the fight happens, it has a good chance to make the distance and a very challenging and exciting fight to watch. If Mosley were to steps into the ring at 160 vs Pacquiao at 148, Mosley has an even bigger (unfair) advantage, how does that meet your criteria? Roach wouldn't be doing right by Pacquiao to let that happen. Isn't that what everyone was saying would be the case when Pac fought DLH?Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
I see this as a difference of opinion. I feel that if a fighter cannot fight at any weight within the weightclass, he doesn't belong there. You guys appear to be on the other side of the coin on this one. i.e. Pac doesn't belong there. Hence we have the catchweight to even out the fight.
I don't believe, a catchweight of 145 or even 144 is going to drain him as you and Adam presuppose. (even with that expert opinion) If Mosley was forced to come down to 142, I could agree it's a bit much. Why, because his performance against Margarito was stellar at 147. I didn't see an ounce of weight drain in him in that fight. He fought Cotto at 146.25 in 2007, contrary to your early statement. I believe that all Roach is doing is lowering the handy cap against Mosley because he much bigger. What you guys are stating is just supposition based on a typical fighter which is a subjective opinion and not based on Mosley specific physiology or direct experience working with him.
My best guess is the fight happens at 145, possibly 144 if Mosley can't get Roach up any more, but it ain't going to happen at 42/43, and Roach already conceded 44 even stating it was negotiable.
if it was to ever happen it would be a unique challenge for pacquiao in that he would go from fighting out and out brawlers which manny is well suited to a technical craftsmen of the game with even quicker hands.
Anything below 130 and almost every fight is an out an out slugfest with endless amount of punches. The 3 fights he has had above that he has fought genuine brawlers who like to tear it up in the centre of the ring and its suited mannys counterpunching style to a tee.
Against sugar at 147 or at a catchweight he would be in with someone who will insist on letting pacquiao dictate the pace and catching him coming in and pacquiao would simply have to chase the fight.
Mosley in 9