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ESPN has Mosley number one at welterweight and Cotto at number two. But, Cotto has beat more top ten welterweights than Mosley - Clottey, Quintana, Mosely, Judah, and Malignaggi (top ten at 140). Mosley has beat Margarito and Collazo and lost to Cotto. Cotto's only loss came at the hands - uhm bricks - of Margarito; that loss has to be at least partially tainted.
Maybe Mosley should be number one, but shouldn't it be more of a close-call than it is made out to be?
Plaster aside, the welterweight division is really tough to properly rank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
The equation
Margarito > Cotto = Cotto > Mosley = Mosley > Margarito
shows inbalance in it's nature.
Ranking number 1 between Mosley and Cotto could spark an endless debate with valid statements on both sides. I personally think Mosley took the number one spot when he beat Margarito who had just taken the number one spot from Cotto. Cotto has not reclaimed that spot yet although he's one elk hair away from it.
You can make a case for Cotto or Mosley being number one. The whole margarito plastergate throws a wrench into the rankings. If it wasnt for the plaster Mosley would definitely be number one so that is probably why it is ranked like it is.
Mosely should be ranked ahead of Cotto.
1. Margarito (plaster or not) completely broke Cotto down. In fact, it remains to be seen if he will ever recover. The bottom line is Cotto ate a bunch of leather.
2. Mosely put on a clinic against Margarito. Mosely did not get hit much at all.
3. Cotto did beat Mosely. But I wish people would go back and watch that fight. No way in hell was it a blow out and in no way did Cotto dominate. In a rematch I would def wager on Mosely.
4. Mosely has a real record that is very established. Not too many Urangos in recent time with him.
I actually don't think if you had to ask anyone who the man to beat at WW, it would really be that close of a question. Hands down, Sugar Shane is the man.
Cotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
agree with all of it. especailly the words in bold. Cotto has taken all of the toughest fights at welter and no else has done this. i dont see how anybody cant be a fan of Cotto he takes on the toughest fights possible. im pretty sure if Paul Williams was still at 147 Cotto would be the only one who has the balls to take him on. anyways i think its pretty close but i would probably have shane 1st. but thats only because Margacheato beat Cotto (which is a questionable win now ) who was the #1 welter then Mosley beat Margacheato who was the #1 welter.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
IMO shane and cotto should fight for the ring welterweight title
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnkagree with all of it. especailly the words in bold. Cotto has taken all of the toughest fights at welter and no else has done this. i dont see how anybody cant be a fan of Cotto he takes on the toughest fights possible. im pretty sure if Paul Williams was still at 147 Cotto would be the only one who has the balls to take him on. anyways i think its pretty close but i would probably have shane 1st. but thats only because Margacheato beat Cotto (which is a questionable win now ) who was the #1 welter then Mosley beat Margacheato who was the #1 welter.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
IMO shane and cotto should fight for the ring welterweight title
Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
neither did cotto..he just got his ass whooped by pressure and will...
Two pictures: One with his hand wrap around cotto, the second is the ref kenny bayless raising margo's hand, clearly showing that if he had plaster around his hand then bayless must've bet on him...
cotto just got his ass whooped, valiant effort, but just had the wrong game plan. No cheating..even if he did cheat, which is clear that he didn't at least not against cotto....he still took all of cotto's shots and walked through them, he broke cotto's will.
Imageshack - margaritocotto.jpg
Imageshack - movieclipping5.jpg
THey fought and Cotto won a razor close decision that could go either way-- then mosely destroyed the guy who destroyed Cotto.
Many feel that Mosely is THE CHAMP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnkagree with all of it. especailly the words in bold. Cotto has taken all of the toughest fights at welter and no else has done this. i dont see how anybody cant be a fan of Cotto he takes on the toughest fights possible. im pretty sure if Paul Williams was still at 147 Cotto would be the only one who has the balls to take him on. anyways i think its pretty close but i would probably have shane 1st. but thats only because Margacheato beat Cotto (which is a questionable win now ) who was the #1 welter then Mosley beat Margacheato who was the #1 welter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
IMO shane and cotto should fight for the ring welterweight title
Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
neither did cotto..he just got his ass whooped by pressure and will...
Two pictures: One with his hand wrap around cotto, the second is the ref kenny bayless raising margo's hand, clearly showing that if he had plaster around his hand then bayless must've bet on him...
cotto just got his ass whooped, valiant effort, but just had the wrong game plan. No cheating..even if he did cheat, which is clear that he didn't at least not against cotto....he still took all of cotto's shots and walked through them, he broke cotto's will.
Imageshack - margaritocotto.jpg
Imageshack - movieclipping5.jpg
That doesn't prove anything. Marga-cheato was putting plaster into his wraps in front of the state inspectors, and no one ever noticed. It took a streetwise Nazeem Richardson to spot the "plastered Bastard's" secrete weapon.
Cotto beat Mosley in a great, close fight but Shane destroyed Margarito who beat Cotto.
That's it really as far as I can see.
I had to laugh at that. The plastered bastard:lolhaha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance UppercutQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
neither did cotto..he just got his ass whooped by pressure and will...
Two pictures: One with his hand wrap around cotto, the second is the ref kenny bayless raising margo's hand, clearly showing that if he had plaster around his hand then bayless must've bet on him...
cotto just got his ass whooped, valiant effort, but just had the wrong game plan. No cheating..even if he did cheat, which is clear that he didn't at least not against cotto....he still took all of cotto's shots and walked through them, he broke cotto's will.
Imageshack - margaritocotto.jpg
Imageshack - movieclipping5.jpg
That doesn't prove anything. Marga-cheato was putting plaster into his wraps in front of the state inspectors, and no one ever noticed. It took a streetwise Nazeem Richardson to spot the "plastered Bastard's" secrete weapon.
The thing is I really don't think Cotto-Mosley could go either way. At best I could see Mosley getting a draw but that's a somewhat iffy card IMO. It was close but clear IMO. Even when Cotto was "running" late in the fight he still clearly won 2 of those rounds IMO.
It was a Cotto win for me, I am big fans of both guys but I have watched the fight at least 15 times and Cotto won it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
I'd like to see a rematch because Shane is staying active and seems to have found a lot of motivation.
Cotto fought the best out there. The speculation on whether or nor Margarito used handwraps in that fight will always be there.
Cotto is a warrior, he got into a ring with a guy suspected of using illegal handwraps and he got into the ring with a guy known to be a HGH user.
HGH makes you just as good as you are in your athletic prime and in many cases better than you are in your athletic prime.
Mosley used the same sort of illegal drugs that Barry Bonds used. Barry Bonds was better in his late 30s using HGH than when he was natural and in his athletic prime, the same thing also applies to Roger Clemens.
Enough with the mosley "cheated" bullshit...even the opponent in which he supposedly "used" them against, says he believes mosley to be innocent...on top of that, Mosley has never been fined or penalized for any wrong doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Of course it doesn't prove anything to someone who can't believe cotto simply got his ass whooped because of bad strategy and not some bullshit cheat tactic. Anyone that paid attention could tell after the mosley fight that cotto was going to be in trouble against Tony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance UppercutQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
neither did cotto..he just got his ass whooped by pressure and will...
Two pictures: One with his hand wrap around cotto, the second is the ref kenny bayless raising margo's hand, clearly showing that if he had plaster around his hand then bayless must've bet on him...
cotto just got his ass whooped, valiant effort, but just had the wrong game plan. No cheating..even if he did cheat, which is clear that he didn't at least not against cotto....he still took all of cotto's shots and walked through them, he broke cotto's will.
Imageshack - margaritocotto.jpg
Imageshack - movieclipping5.jpg
That doesn't prove anything. Marga-cheato was putting plaster into his wraps in front of the state inspectors, and no one ever noticed. It took a streetwise Nazeem Richardson to spot the "plastered Bastard's" secrete weapon.
"i kept hitting him but he just kept coming so i decided to win the fight the easy way" - cotto after the mosley fight
Because he slaughtered the guy who butchered the guy who beat him, but he did this MOST RECENTLY. My guess is Mosley is fresher than Cotto and that's why I have have him ranked higher--that and the fact I saw Margo's ghost in his fight with Clottey.
HGH is virtually undetectable by piss tests. Bonds, Clemens, Petitite weren't penalized for using HGH in baseball, that doesn't mean they did not cheat. HGH not only brings back your prime, but in many cases makes you faster, stronger, more durable than when you are in your physical prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherEnough with the mosley "cheated" bullshit...even the opponent in which he supposedly "used" them against, says he believes mosley to be innocent...on top of that, Mosley has never been fined or penalized for any wrong doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
If Mosley is so good and better than that certain opponent (De La Hoya) that he was accused of doping against, then why not try and beat him fair and square?
Mosley is no better than Margarito. They are one and the same.
And what are you Mosley Publicist?:rolleyes:
Maybe its on longevity.Overall view.I mean technically and maybe anally :-X,Mosley has beaten just as many Ring top 10 ranked Welters over a span of years as Cotto has recently.....but of course lost to Forrest twice there as well.Maybe its the what have you done for me lately point of view.
For me I think his last two wins were more impressive than Cottos and since Cottos close win over Mosley....Mosley has Ko'd the man in Margarito who had previously Ko'd the man...Cotto.Whatever the opinion of did he or didn't he regarding Tony,The ring has obviously not let that into its decision as they still have him ranked as well.What I know for fact is that Mosley beat Tonys azz as if he owed him money :shinner:.I do think Cotto is an improved boxer and was willing to bet all that they would have rematched by now.Love to see it
Mosley supposedly used them in the second fight...he clearly beat de la hoya in the first fight. What I don't understand is if the man he "used" them against believes him to be innocent of wrong doing, why are you trying to make a case against him? I don't remember Oscar demanding a fair and square rematch or going public about it..oh wait he did go public..stating that he knows mosley and believes that he wouldn't cheat. So let it go dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHGH is virtually undetectable by piss tests. Bonds, Clemens, Petitite weren't penalized for using HGH in baseball, that doesn't mean they did not cheat. HGH not only brings back your prime, but in many cases makes you faster, stronger, more durable than when you are in your physical prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherEnough with the mosley "cheated" bullshit...even the opponent in which he supposedly "used" them against, says he believes mosley to be innocent...on top of that, Mosley has never been fined or penalized for any wrong doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
If Mosley is so good and better than that certain opponent (De La Hoya) that he was accused of doping against, then why not try and beat him fair and square?
Mosley is no better than Margarito. They are one and the same.
And what are you Mosley Publicist?:rolleyes:
For one thing if De La Hoya went out and didn't act or pretend to act all gracious it hurts his public image. There is a reason why he's called the "golden boy". the image the guy has to lived up to.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherMosley supposedly used them in the second fight...he clearly beat de la hoya in the first fight. What I don't understand is if the man he "used" them against believes him to be innocent of wrong doing, why are you trying to make a case against him? I don't remember Oscar demanding a fair and square rematch or going public about it..oh wait he did go public..stating that he knows mosley and believes that he wouldn't cheat. So let it go dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHGH is virtually undetectable by piss tests. Bonds, Clemens, Petitite weren't penalized for using HGH in baseball, that doesn't mean they did not cheat. HGH not only brings back your prime, but in many cases makes you faster, stronger, more durable than when you are in your physical prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
If Mosley is so good and better than that certain opponent (De La Hoya) that he was accused of doping against, then why not try and beat him fair and square?
Mosley is no better than Margarito. They are one and the same.
And what are you Mosley Publicist?:rolleyes:
And it's not supposedly, Mosley admitted to a grand jury that was prosecuting the Balco Labs that he used HGH. It's not "supposedly".
Actually his bullshit excuse just like many other athletes that got caught doping was, "I didn't know what I was taking." That's the same bullshit excuse that when an athlete gets caught cheating is, "I didn't know." Same thing with Margarito using the excuse, "I didn't know my trainer did that to my wraps." Sounds familiar?
And HGH makes you stronger, faster, it increases your stamina, why do you think so many athletes use it? If Mosley is so much better than De La Hoya, why use it?
And one last thing, the guys that uses HGH are actually just as good in their late 30s or early 40s like they were in their physical prime.
It's kind of funny that a guy like Shane Mosley is just as fast, strong, durable, and has great stamina just like in his twenties. Shit we all know the reason.
Wow you have the worst excuses ever. How did anything you said prove Margarito didn't use plaster in his wraps? Those pictures proved absolutely nothign, your logic is terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherOf course it doesn't prove anything to someone who can't believe cotto simply got his ass whooped because of bad strategy and not some bullshit cheat tactic. Anyone that paid attention could tell after the mosley fight that cotto was going to be in trouble against Tony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance UppercutQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
That doesn't prove anything. Marga-cheato was putting plaster into his wraps in front of the state inspectors, and no one ever noticed. It took a streetwise Nazeem Richardson to spot the "plastered Bastard's" secrete weapon.
"i kept hitting him but he just kept coming so i decided to win the fight the easy way" - cotto after the mosley fight
Uhh in the picture you can clearly see the ref holding his hand with the wrap still on it and another one with his around cotto...now if it was hard like plaster wouldn't cotto and bayless have noticed immediately?Quote:
Originally Posted by TaethWow you have the worst excuses ever. How did anything you said prove Margarito didn't use plaster in his wraps? Those pictures proved absolutely nothign, your logic is terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherOf course it doesn't prove anything to someone who can't believe cotto simply got his ass whooped because of bad strategy and not some bullshit cheat tactic. Anyone that paid attention could tell after the mosley fight that cotto was going to be in trouble against Tony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Uppercut
"i kept hitting him but he just kept coming so i decided to win the fight the easy way" - cotto after the mosley fight
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogFor one thing if De La Hoya went out and didn't act or pretend to act all gracious it hurts his public image. There is a reason why he's called the "golden boy". the image the guy has to lived up to.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherMosley supposedly used them in the second fight...he clearly beat de la hoya in the first fight. What I don't understand is if the man he "used" them against believes him to be innocent of wrong doing, why are you trying to make a case against him? I don't remember Oscar demanding a fair and square rematch or going public about it..oh wait he did go public..stating that he knows mosley and believes that he wouldn't cheat. So let it go dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
And it's not supposedly, Mosley admitted to a grand jury that was prosecuting the Balco Labs that he used HGH. It's not "supposedly".
Actually his bullshit excuse just like many other athletes that got caught doping was, "I didn't know what I was taking." That's the same bullshit excuse that when an athlete gets caught cheating is, "I didn't know." Same thing with Margarito using the excuse, "I didn't know my trainer did that to my wraps." Sounds familiar?
And HGH makes you stronger, faster, it increases your stamina, why do you think so many athletes use it? If Mosley is so much better than De La Hoya, why use it?
And one last thing, the guys that uses HGH are actually just as good in their late 30s or early 40s like they were in their physical prime.
It's kind of funny that a guy like Shane Mosley is just as fast, strong, durable, and has great stamina just like in his twenties. Shit we all know the reason.
You must've never seen mosley in his twenties? because he's no where near that fast. And he only seems to have the stamina because he doesn't move as much as he used to. He's a veteran now that basically stands and trades.
If the grand jury and athletic commission felt shane was innocent what's your point? Why keep calling him a willing cheater? Because the fight decision wasn't overturned, and neither was the margo win over cotto so you and everyone else that wants to make excuse as to why cotto got his ass sandblasted can keep reaching because isn't going to change a thing. Cotto got blasted plain and simple and after manny possibly knocks his ass out then the excuse will be something new.
How the hell can you be innocent from cheating when you admit to using HGH? lol Actually it's "unknowingly." If Shane Mosley is innocent than Margarito should be innocent too right? He wasn't prosecuted from the feds because he didn't lie to them like Barry Bonds. But best believe he would have been prosecuted if he lied to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogFor one thing if De La Hoya went out and didn't act or pretend to act all gracious it hurts his public image. There is a reason why he's called the "golden boy". the image the guy has to lived up to.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
And it's not supposedly, Mosley admitted to a grand jury that was prosecuting the Balco Labs that he used HGH. It's not "supposedly".
Actually his bullshit excuse just like many other athletes that got caught doping was, "I didn't know what I was taking." That's the same bullshit excuse that when an athlete gets caught cheating is, "I didn't know." Same thing with Margarito using the excuse, "I didn't know my trainer did that to my wraps." Sounds familiar?
And HGH makes you stronger, faster, it increases your stamina, why do you think so many athletes use it? If Mosley is so much better than De La Hoya, why use it?
And one last thing, the guys that uses HGH are actually just as good in their late 30s or early 40s like they were in their physical prime.
It's kind of funny that a guy like Shane Mosley is just as fast, strong, durable, and has great stamina just like in his twenties. Shit we all know the reason.
You must've never seen mosley in his twenties? because he's no where near that fast. And he only seems to have the stamina because he doesn't move as much as he used to. He's a veteran now that basically stands and trades.
If the grand jury and athletic commission felt shane was innocent what's your point? Why keep calling him a willing cheater? Because the fight decision wasn't overturned, and neither was the margo win over cotto so you and everyone else that wants to make excuse as to why cotto got his ass sandblasted can keep reaching because isn't going to change a thing. Cotto got blasted plain and simple and after manny possibly knocks his ass out then the excuse will be something new.
I've watched Mosley since he beat Phillip Holiday for the lightweight title in the 90s. And it looks like he's still just as fast, strong, better than when he was in his prime. It's HGH.
In the history of boxing almost every boxer was shot or on the serious decline at Shane Mosley's age, with the exception of Hopkins, but he uses his craftiness more than anything.
In fact name me one boxer in the history of the game that was just as strong, fast, sharp, and conditioned in his late 30s as he was in his 20s?
Can you do it?
That's what I said, he's not a "willing cheater", the conti guy spiked his water or how ever it happened. Shane didn't know so calling him a cheater is unjust. And Shane was cleared by both the feds and the state athletic commission so let that go. And reason the feds aren't involved with Margo is because he wasn't involved with Balco he was trying to use plaster AGAINST SHANE, he was suspended for his actions before his fight with SHANE. I emphasize SHANE because you can't link that fight to his others. And just because you won't accept the decisions by both NSAC and the Grand Jury regarding Shane not being a cheater for whatever reason doesn't change a thing. Like I said let it go, he was cleared twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHow the hell can you be innocent from cheating when you admit to using HGH? lol Actually it's "unknowingly." If Shane Mosley is innocent than Margarito should be innocent too right? He wasn't prosecuted from the feds because he didn't lie to them like Barry Bonds. But best believe he would have been prosecuted if he lied to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
You must've never seen mosley in his twenties? because he's no where near that fast. And he only seems to have the stamina because he doesn't move as much as he used to. He's a veteran now that basically stands and trades.
If the grand jury and athletic commission felt shane was innocent what's your point? Why keep calling him a willing cheater? Because the fight decision wasn't overturned, and neither was the margo win over cotto so you and everyone else that wants to make excuse as to why cotto got his ass sandblasted can keep reaching because isn't going to change a thing. Cotto got blasted plain and simple and after manny possibly knocks his ass out then the excuse will be something new.
I've watched Mosley since he beat Phillip Holiday for the lightweight title in the 90s. And it looks like he's still just as fast, strong, better than when he was in his prime. It's HGH.
In the history of boxing almost every boxer was shot or on the serious decline at Shane Mosley's age, with the exception of Hopkins, but he uses his craftiness more than anything.
In fact name me one boxer in the history of the game that was just as strong, fast, sharp, and conditioned in his late 30s as he was in his 20s?
Can you do it?
In the history of the sport most fighters go up in weight because its harder or they lack motivation to maintain the prime weight. Mosley added years to his career by one,he's never taken a serious beating and two by going up 154 so early and staying there now that he's back down to 147 he looks much better by comparison to the fights at 154. But by no means is he as fast, quick, or punch out like he did when first got to WW and certainly not when he was at 135.
Wow, this has been quite a thread. I seen good points from different sides. Mosley is my favorite fighter of all time but I am not about to lie or be in denial. The truth is the trught. Mosley is not as fast or as fluid as he once was. But Mosley did take HGH so he did cheat. He never got any charges because he said it was unknowingly. Don't be fooled. Many boxers have gotten caught in the steroid era and never got charged. The feds aren't wasting their time on the users unless they lie under oath. They want the dealers. Vargas tested positive once, James Toney tested positive twice and got suspended but neither one got charges. Mosley never tested positive but he admitted he was taking HGH and maybe EPO but he said it was told to him to be supplements.
Fine, I'll let that go on whether or not he knowingly used HGH even though Victor Conte told the feds that Shane Mosley knew what he was doing. But one thing that cannot be denied is that Shane Mosley had HGH in his body.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherThat's what I said, he's not a "willing cheater", the conti guy spiked his water or how ever it happened. Shane didn't know so calling him a cheater is unjust. And Shane was cleared by both the feds and the state athletic commission so let that go. And reason the feds aren't involved with Margo is because he wasn't involved with Balco he was trying to use plaster AGAINST SHANE, he was suspended for his actions before his fight with SHANE. I emphasize SHANE because you can't link that fight to his others. And just because you won't accept the decisions by both NSAC and the Grand Jury regarding Shane not being a cheater for whatever reason doesn't change a thing. Like I said let it go, he was cleared twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHow the hell can you be innocent from cheating when you admit to using HGH? lol Actually it's "unknowingly." If Shane Mosley is innocent than Margarito should be innocent too right? He wasn't prosecuted from the feds because he didn't lie to them like Barry Bonds. But best believe he would have been prosecuted if he lied to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
I've watched Mosley since he beat Phillip Holiday for the lightweight title in the 90s. And it looks like he's still just as fast, strong, better than when he was in his prime. It's HGH.
In the history of boxing almost every boxer was shot or on the serious decline at Shane Mosley's age, with the exception of Hopkins, but he uses his craftiness more than anything.
In fact name me one boxer in the history of the game that was just as strong, fast, sharp, and conditioned in his late 30s as he was in his 20s?
Can you do it?
In the history of the sport most fighters go up in weight because its harder or they lack motivation to maintain the prime weight. Mosley added years to his career by one,he's never taken a serious beating and two by going up 154 so early and staying there now that he's back down to 147 he looks much better by comparison to the fights at 154. But by no means is he as fast, quick, or punch out like he did when first got to WW and certainly not when he was at 135.
And HGH users in their late 30s had better career performances than they did when their body was in their physical prime, see guys like Bonds and Clemens as prime examples.
As for Mosley being just as good in his late 30s as late 20s I stand by my observation. He fought ODLH in 2000 for the 1st time at the age of 28, he had no problem fighting at WW in that fight and was incredibly fast, strong, and had great stamina. Fast forward to when Shane is in his late 30s, he still looks like he's still in his prime. Nothing has changed in his performances, he may have lost a few times but that was based on a poor game plan more than anything else.
Every boxer in his late 30s was either shot or in the decline, except for Hopkins who's crafty as hell but no where near what he was in his physical prime, he uses his smarts more than anything, but most fans can tell he's not as fast or have great reflexes like he once did. Not so with Shane.
Ali, Robinson, Chavez, Pryor, Tyson, Leonard, De La Hoya, all were shot or in major decline in their mid to late 30s. They were no where near as good as when they were in their prime.
Shane Mosley on the other hand defies that logic and still has the same speed, power, quick reflexes, chin today at age 37 just like at age 28 fighting DLH for the first time at Welterweight. I've watched Shane Mosley too much over his career to see that there was no major change in his physical skills, while every other boxer started to lose it after the age of 30.
I know you already have your mind made up but don't be offended. Lets just be factual. The pictures you link are of Margarito hugging Cotto. How would Cotto know there is plaster in the wraps from Margarito's palms being on his back??? Second picture, the ref is holding Margarito's wrist. What does that prove??? Try to see what we are seeing about your argument. In the Cotto fight there was nothing to be suspicious of so who is even looking for plaster? Let alone feeling for it. No one in either of these pics is feeling the knuckles and the plaster would be in the wraps on the knuckle part. You do realize that your pics prove nothing now, right? Actually, its makes your argument look silly by showing those pics and then saying proof. And remember before the Mosley bout, Nazeem Richardson had to feel and pat the knuckles of Margarito's wraps to know there was something not right. Also, Margarito already had one of his hands pass the inspection and checked off by the Commission by the time Richardson even got in the Margarito locker room. So Margarito is no slouch at getting away. Those wraps obviously were not visually catchable. And one more thing my man. How could anyone else know there was plaster in Margarito's handwraps when Margarito didn't even know?http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ons/icon10.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnkagree with all of it. especailly the words in bold. Cotto has taken all of the toughest fights at welter and no else has done this. i dont see how anybody cant be a fan of Cotto he takes on the toughest fights possible. im pretty sure if Paul Williams was still at 147 Cotto would be the only one who has the balls to take him on. anyways i think its pretty close but i would probably have shane 1st. but thats only because Margacheato beat Cotto (which is a questionable win now ) who was the #1 welter then Mosley beat Margacheato who was the #1 welter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
IMO shane and cotto should fight for the ring welterweight title
Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
neither did cotto..he just got his ass whooped by pressure and will...
Two pictures: One with his hand wrap around cotto, the second is the ref kenny bayless raising margo's hand, clearly showing that if he had plaster around his hand then bayless must've bet on him...
cotto just got his ass whooped, valiant effort, but just had the wrong game plan. No cheating..even if he did cheat, which is clear that he didn't at least not against cotto....he still took all of cotto's shots and walked through them, he broke cotto's will.
Imageshack - margaritocotto.jpg
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Human Growth Hormone does not bring back ones prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
It merely induces a state of growth that allows the body to grow in mass and strength.
Shane Mosley in search of bigger purses, made the jump from Lightweight to Welterweight, bypassing the 140lb duivsion.
To help him do so, Mosley sought out BALCO. A pharmecutical company which had been affiliated with the success of other athletes such as Evander Holyfield and Marion Jones.
At this time Balco were seen to be a perfectly legitimate supplementation company which also came highly advised by Mosley's strength and conditioining coach.
Mosley underwent a course of "boosters" from BALCO before the ODLH fight.
To the best of Mosley's knowledge he was being administered "revolutionary" new supplements that would help him forge a legacy in the Welterweight division.
In reality BALCO injected Shane with HGH "the cream and the clear."
Upon testing Shane strongly denied accusations and even went as far as to file defamation claims. Investigations were ongoing, Mosley vehemently denied steroid usage.
When suited with the results Shane held his hands up and admitted that these substances were indeed found.
He then filed a suit against BALCO.
Shane utilised BALCO's products to gain size, hardly a massive injustice as he would have gained very little in terms of performance other than the bulk of a man at 147.
Shane to this day is injecting supplementation, although now I believe he is more guarded and utilises primarily anti-oxidants.
Fuk all the BALCO talk.
Cotto is good but Mosley is better. Yeah I know Mosley lost but IMO he fought the wrong fight; He was suprised by Cotto's boxing ability.
Cotto was on the back foot by the end of the fight. Forget he's excuses for why. The real reasons became apparent in the Margarito and Clottey fights.
Cotto isn't quite the warrior he'd have us all believe.
Mosley would K.O cotto in a Re-match.
Also, for the sake of this argument, id LOVE to see how Cotto handled a PRIME Dela Hoya at 147 ;)
Yea, but Cotto beat Clottey even more recently and he beat Mosley. Plus, Mosley looked mediocre in his win over Mayorga, which was the fight before Margarito.Quote:
Originally Posted by holmcall
Either way you cut it Cotto has taken on every single fighter out there. How anyone could not say Cotto is a warrior is beyond me.
Mosley is ranked above Cotto because Mosley beat Margarito. I can get that: Margarito was ranked number one and Mosley beat the number one guy. That said, Cotto beat Mosley, the current number one, and beat Clottey, the current number three.
If I'm getting everyone's points, everyone would agree that if Cotto rematched Margarito and beat him, he unequivocally would be ranked number one. Correct? And what if he beats Manny?
All Cotto has to do is fight Mosley again...simple as.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I agree completely that the Ring is contradicting itself here.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCotto beat Mosley and Cotto beat #3 Clottey. Just these facts merit debate. As an analogy, remember Ring Magazine ranks Donaire ahead of Vic because Donaire beat Vic even though Vic has beat the better competition since that fight, which isn't even the case here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boozeboxer
Cotto's loss to Margarito, at least to an extent, can be chalked up to the fact Margarito was hitting him with bricks. Mosley didn't fight a Margarito with bricks.
We aren't talking about p4p. We are talking about at welterweight. Cotto has beat almost every single top ten welterweight with the exception of Collazo and Berto. Mosley has only beat Collazo.
It is definitely a close call even if Mosley gets the nod.
Personally I agree that Mosely should be number 1 because in knocking out Margarito he basically beat the man in the division. Ok so Mosely lost a close decision to Cotto, but Cotto was ktfo by Margarito and which at best puts Mosely and Cotto level and I think Mosely's career record and recent wins have been more impressive than Cotto so he deserves to be number 1 ahead of Cotto.
What annoys me though is that the Ring in a complete contradiciton rate Nonito Donaire above Darchinyan which is a total farce imo. Donaire has only ever faced a single world class opponent, and Darchinyan aside has never fought a world champion past or present. His resume apart from Vic is mediocre at best and the win over Darchinyan is mainly seen as a great win because of what Darchinyan has gone on to achieve AFTER losing to Donaire.
In a frankly ludicrously bizarre decision Donaire has had Darchinyan's wins over Arce and Mijares added to HIS resume which is ridiculous beyond belief.
Following that logic Chad Dawson should be top 10 p4p without question seeing as he beat Adamek who went on to beat O Neil Bell and Steve Cunningham and become the Ring champ at cruiserweight and thus a two weight world champ like Darchinyan.
It's a really weird twist of logic that you have Donaire above Darchinyan because he beat Darchinyan BEFORE he went on to acomplish the great things in his career yet they don't apply that logic to other fighters.
Williams and Dawson, probably Pavlik, Kessler, Haye, Wlad should all be above Donaire along with maybe guys like Juan Guzman.
Even Tim Bradely is a two time world champ which is double the acomplishments of Donaire.
Never has a man been rated so highly for achieving so little as Nonito Donaire.
Sorry to change the thread into a Nonito rant but it really grates me :mad:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonnyAll Cotto has to do is fight Mosley again...simple as.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Yeah i think that the WW division kind of Stood still when Floyd was about. Everyone wanted to fight him and no one really seemed to be fighting each other (if that makes sense).
Now that Manny Pacquiao has blown up in weight the same Welters, who for a while, were getting on with it in some great fights have seemed to be dragged back in to this equation of 'Who's gonna fight the P4P King'..
Fuk P4P. Mosley and Cotto are No.1 & 2 and thats a great reason, if any, for a rematch.
REMATCH BABY!! :cool:
It is a very close call, I wouldn't use my time to argue with neither of the two camps actually so close it is and how arguments on each side are solid to some extend, I think that to this point, it has almost been a head or tail decision but what makes the difference, I think, is that Moseley is 38 and schooled in a tremendous way the dominant Margarito, I think that it could be what made the difference, an outrageous performance and a Cotto who fights with lackluster in his latest ones.
Bilbo, aside from the Nonito rant, Mosley has had a better career, but how can you argue his recent performances were any better than Cotto's? Cotto has faced all comers at welterweight and beat two of the three in the top three (Mosley and Clottey). Before the Margarito fight, Mosley had a completely lackluster fight with Mayorga where he arguably was winning by maybe one round, before the 12th.
Cotto didn't stand still. He fought every single fighter out there...and he still is doing same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
The Margarito win for Shane may indeed put him in the number one spot, but it is a tough call because Cotto beat Mosley and Clottey. Cotto should be number, for sure, if he beats Collazo, Berto, or Manny.
I give credit to Cotto for fighting all-comers but he has NOT fought EVERY single fighter out there. Mosley, Clottey, Judah & Quintana are impressive, but really at least 2 of those guys should not be ranked there as they haven't fought at 147 in over a year. The fact is Cotto narrowly beat Mosley (I had it 115-114 for Cotto) & Clottey (114-113 Clottey), whilst Mosley decisively beat & KO'd Margarito, which was unthinkable beforehand, who made Cotto quit. Now, admittedly there are severe doubts over Margarito's win over Cotto by virtue of his gloves, but there are none over his chin, which Mosley broke, & Cotto threw all he had at & couldn't finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratBilbo, aside from the Nonito rant, Mosley has had a better career, but how can you argue his recent performances were any better than Cotto's? Cotto has faced all comers at welterweight and beat two of the three in the top three (Mosley and Clottey). Before the Margarito fight, Mosley had a completely lackluster fight with Mayorga where he arguably was winning by maybe one round, before the 12th.
Cotto didn't stand still. He fought every single fighter out there...and he still is doing same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
The Margarito win for Shane may indeed put him in the number one spot, but it is a tough call because Cotto beat Mosley and Clottey. Cotto should be number, for sure, if he beats Collazo, Berto, or Manny.
Mosley already beat Collazo and would have NO trouble beating ANY of Cotto's previous opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratBilbo, aside from the Nonito rant, Mosley has had a better career, but how can you argue his recent performances were any better than Cotto's? Cotto has faced all comers at welterweight and beat two of the three in the top three (Mosley and Clottey). Before the Margarito fight, Mosley had a completely lackluster fight with Mayorga where he arguably was winning by maybe one round, before the 12th.
Cotto didn't stand still. He fought every single fighter out there...and he still is doing same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
The Margarito win for Shane may indeed put him in the number one spot, but it is a tough call because Cotto beat Mosley and Clottey. Cotto should be number, for sure, if he beats Collazo, Berto, or Manny.
Cotto - Mosley could have gone either way
Margarito beat Cotto convincingly.
Shane raped Margarito from start to finish
Therefore Shane is the best welterweight and until Cotto beats him he shall remain the best .