As it stands right now, which of these two ranks higher all time?
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As it stands right now, which of these two ranks higher all time?
Hatton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Hatton easily, people are being a tad harsh on Hatton, lets not forget he best the p4p number 3 who had ruled the division for best part of 8 years, and was then himself number 1 fighter in his division for 4 years.
Ricky Hatton but i felt Fernando Vargas was actually P4P a better fighter, its just his career was rushed and he never quite recovered from the Felix Trinidad fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Fernando Vargas showed in his fights with Ike Quartey, Winky Wright, he was elite. Especially in the Ike Quartey fight he is the only fighter, to have ever beaten Ike Quartey convincingly IMO, forgetting Ike Quartey vs Winky Wright because that fight should of never happened, and i thought Fernando Vargas earned a draw against a very good Winky Wright.
He's also the youngest Jr Middleweight champion in history i believe, so he was obviously elite its just a shame he was rushed into a fight with Felix Trinidad. Which he wasn't quite ready for, but mind you i feel he may of stopped Felix Trinidad in the 4th round, had Felix Trinidad not threw a very controversial low blow. That gave him time to recover, but we will never know.
I'd go with Vargas. Both have the luxery of saying they only lost to future hall of famers, but Vargas never got completely curb stomped. Hatton's biggest win (Tszyu) is better than Vargas' biggest win (Quartey), but his level of competition was way better than Hatton's and at least he was competitive in his losses (minus the very end of his career).
i have to agree with u ice, hatton has the better record on paper but i feel vargas on his prime was a better pound for pound fighter, i think it comes down to management, maybe hattons career was guided better, vargas was definately up there, he gave a prime de la hoya all he could handle till the stoppage, then uve got winky and quartey.maybe vargas was rushed a little, i still remember the trinindad fight what a fight it was, i have to say this is a different but good thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBRicky Hatton but i felt Fernando Vargas was actually P4P a better fighter, its just his career was rushed and he never quite recovered from the Felix Trinidad fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Fernando Vargas showed in his fights with Ike Quartey, Winky Wright, he was elite. Especially in the Ike Quartey fight he is the only fighter, to have ever beaten Ike Quartey convincingly IMO, forgetting Ike Quartey vs Winky Wright because that fight should of never happened, and i thought Fernando Vargas earned a draw against a very good Winky Wright.
He's also the youngest Jr Middleweight champion in history i believe, so he was obviously elite its just a shame he was rushed into a fight with Felix Trinidad. Which he wasn't quite ready for, but mind you i feel he may of stopped Felix Trinidad in the 4th round, had Felix Trinidad not threw a very controversial low blow. That gave him time to recover, but we will never know.
If I felt that Vargas had deserved the win over Winky it would be Vargas definitely for me. But I feel Winky won a close but clear decision where I really can't see a win or even a draw for Vargas, that fight is less borderline to me than say Cotto-Clottey or Pacquaio-JMM 2, I could see Clottey and JMM winning, I really can't see Vargas winning.
So as it stands it seems like a bit of a push to me, maybe Hatton slightly ahead.
Vargas. Easily. He was fighting big names in his 14th fight. Took Hatton 39.
I pretty much agree that it's really close which is why I posted this, I kind of agree with everything both sides say so I can't really say one way or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
I felt Fernando Vargas was behind by a couple of points, going into the 10th round. But then he really stepped up the pace, throwing 90+ punches and just outworking Winky Wright down the stretch to earn a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Fernando Vargas was also very effective to the body, and im not using the punchstats as my argument, but the punchstats were pretty even aswell it was a very close fight.
I don't think thats a good reason to put Fernando Vargas down, because consider it this way. P4P how would Ricky Hatton have done against Winky Wright, Ike Quartey, ODLH, ETC ?
that says it all about vargas and his downfall vdQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I don't think I'm knocking him for that, I'm just saying that would have put him clearly over the top. And I just can't see a draw or a win, and I saw it 3 or 4 times. Not in a while but I have no intention of watching it again.
You could turn that P4P argument around too though, Vargas isn't doing well against Floyd or Pacquaio either.
Tough one, Hatton will no doubt be above Vargas in many peoples minds but Vargas fought some of the best fighters in recent years and as mentioned never got totally battered at world level he made for some cracking competitive fights.
I would have to say Vargas even though he was rushed and ruined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
LOL!!;D
I would lean towards Vargas.
I'm thinking about going with Vargas too. LOL that was quick. I don't know, I haven't put a whole lot of thought into it. Its not a clear decision either way, they're pretty close.
Well i think Fernando Vargas had the size and skill, to give both men a decent argument P4P. No one has beaten a prime Winky Wright easily, even Bernard Hopkins struggled badly against a flabby Winky Wright.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
The fact is Fernando Vargas fought a very good version of Winky Wright, and IMO earned a draw. Based on his frantic last 3 rounds effort, even if you thought he lost it couldn't of been by more than 2 rounds. It was very close and again i don't really feel thats a good reason.
That you wouldn't have him above Ricky Hatton, i personally don't but im not really getting why the Winky Wright fight would change your mind, considering how great Winky Wright is and considering how close it was.
haha, how great Winky was is the exact reason it would push him over, that would be a huge win ;D He fought well though and even that is a plus for him but obviously a clear win would be better. That and a Ike win would put him over Hatton, which after some reconsideration I think he might be anyway.
No offense, but I don't know how size can play a part in a P4P argument. Wlad's size and skill would really give him a good shot versus Fernando Montiel in a P4P fight ;D I'm probably just misunderstanding you there. And I think P4P Floyd and Manny are too good for him, clearly. Of course I think Floyd and Manny are higher P4P than anybody Vargas fought, again clearly, except maybe in the case of Winky but I think they're also just worse matchups for Fernando than Winky.
Why would you even consider Hatton fighting junior middleweights ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI felt Fernando Vargas was behind by a couple of points, going into the 10th round. But then he really stepped up the pace, throwing 90+ punches and just outworking Winky Wright down the stretch to earn a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Fernando Vargas was also very effective to the body, and im not using the punchstats as my argument, but the punchstats were pretty even aswell it was a very close fight.
I don't think thats a good reason to put Fernando Vargas down, because consider it this way. P4P how would Ricky Hatton have done against Winky Wright, Ike Quartey, ODLH, ETC ?
Fernando Vargas Best Wins.
Yori Boy Campas
Raul Marquez
Ike Quartey
Winky Wright
Wilfredo Rivera
Javier Castillejo
6 World title wins, youngest Jr Middleweight champion in history.
Ricky Hatton's Best Wins.
Paul Malignaggi
Jose Luis Castillo
Kostya Tszyu
Juan Urango
Luis Collazo
Vince Phillips
4 World title wins although i can't remember, how many times he defended his ring magazine belt.
I said P4P.Quote:
Originally Posted by leftyleeWhy would you even consider Hatton fighting junior middleweights ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBI felt Fernando Vargas was behind by a couple of points, going into the 10th round. But then he really stepped up the pace, throwing 90+ punches and just outworking Winky Wright down the stretch to earn a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Fernando Vargas was also very effective to the body, and im not using the punchstats as my argument, but the punchstats were pretty even aswell it was a very close fight.
I don't think thats a good reason to put Fernando Vargas down, because consider it this way. P4P how would Ricky Hatton have done against Winky Wright, Ike Quartey, ODLH, ETC ?
My bad on the size part my mind was wondering there, but i agree on the rest. But i feel Fernando Vargas could still give both of them good arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
5 times he defended it the Ring Belt, on paper Vargas has the better wins, hard to say really looking at it again, without looking into who they fought you would say Hatton on the fact he won world titles at two weights was number 1 for 4 years, but the names and the fighters Vargas's is slightly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Well I don't think they'd KO him in one (and honestly I don't give a whole lot of thought to any P4P matches as they're a bit pointless) but Manny's hand speed, foot speed, movement and power would be rough on Vargas, and Floyd's skills, speed and even power would also be tough for Vargas.
exactly how can u even compare hatton against those fighters what the fukk, anyway about vargas i need to give him his due he was a hell of a fighter, a man that wore his heart on his sleeve, comin back fom two knockdowns in the first round against trinidad only to get smashed at the end of the fight, i almost feel sorry for the fella, he was a great, great warrior. i think alot of promoters and trainers can learn fron his downfall, jeff lacy vs calzaghe also comes to mind, all these people slaggin off fighters for stepping up to late, i think ur best off throwing them in the deep end after 30 forty fights other than 10, 20 fights, history shows this more than not
guys its just P4P, I mean P4P arguments are vague and I think a bit pointless but he's not just saying simply that he thinks a 154 pound Vargas or Winky would beat a 140 pound hatton.
i think tho skel have to put hatton just ahead of vargas due to the domination of his divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by skel19835 times he defended it the Ring Belt, on paper Vargas has the better wins, hard to say really looking at it again, without looking into who they fought you would say Hatton on the fact he won world titles at two weights was number 1 for 4 years, but the names and the fighters Vargas's is slightly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
IMO its vargas. when he fought the big names he put up a good fight. hatton got blown out by Pac and outboxed and kod by floyd. Vargas gave Tito, Winky, Oscar, and Mosley tough fights.
HAtton wasnt just handed it on a plate as some would have us belive either. Beat Urkal convincingly and he beat Phillips (something Kostya never got his own back for); They were some of the smarter tougher fights to nail down before his big "although timley" win over Kostya.Quote:
Originally Posted by skel1983Quote:
Originally Posted by match
Hatton easily, people are being a tad harsh on Hatton, lets not forget he best the p4p number 3 who had ruled the division for best part of 8 years, and was then himself number 1 fighter in his division for 4 years.
Vargas was good ,had determination heart and got weight fully behind some decent striaght guns but was better when he was behind the wheel dictating a fight. I thought he couldnt control himself mentally as well when comming under intense pressure himself.
This is what swings it towards Vargas for me. They both have equally good wins under their belt, but when it came to elite opposition, Vargas was very competitive in those fights, with opportunites to win them at some points. Hatton never got that far against Pac and Floyd.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfrnk
I'm gonna go with Vargas. His title run at IBF JMW ranks better than Hatton's run at JWW in terms of overall quality of opposition, and he fought significantly more top tier opponents.
Hatton for sure
Same as Barerra and JCC then ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
very close but i think vargas,hatton spent to much time fighting nobodys for the wbu tittle
Hatton. Although I think if Vargas' career had been managed better, I'd be saying Vargas.
Yea but to be fair MAB started boxing at 15 didn't he ? and 28 of his fights were when he was under 20.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HSame as Barerra and JCC then ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Since Vargas needed steroids to help him get humiliated by De La Hoya it seems only fair that I choose Hatton.
Vargas also took a beating from Mayorga.
:detective:
Hatton has still only lost to two P4P numero unos...
Got to go with Vargas, in his losses he show'd he was good enough
to be in the ring with world class opponents and gave them one of there
toughest fights, anyone think Floyd or Pac would have Hatton down as one of there toughest fights...
I will say Vargas, eventhough he really screwed himself by ruining his style/falling in love with his punching power. Had he been more of a boxer/puncher instead of a brawler he would have lasted longer.
Ricky Hatton other than fighting a Prime Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao had a HUGE drop off in talent...old Kostya Tszyu was good and all but other than that it was just run of the mill guys, no one special. Vargas fought: De la Hoya, Trinidad, and Mosley but the others he fought and beat: Castillejo, Quartey, Winky Wright are very impressive.
yeah on the talent drop off thing, Which is why I don't put too much stock into the "he only lost to the best" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Would have been nice had Hatton took on a Witter, Harris, Cotto, Nate Campbell, Joel Casamayor, Acelino Freitas, Juan Diaz....just any of the guys that were at or around his weight class and in their primes/close to their primes and were quality fighters.
I really wish Diego Corrales could have lived to fight at 140, I think a Hatton-Corrales fight would have been a classic although Diego seemed to be on the downside, I think he would have gotten used to 140 and settled in nicely after a disasterous fight at 147 vs the very strong Joshua Clottey.