The Ring Pound For Pound Ratings
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Here's a stinger whens the last time a heavyweight was on a p4p list?
To be fair it is harder for heavies though.
If a guy moves through a 2-3 weight classes (not uncommon the lighter you go, when there's just a few pounds in it and moving up in weight usually means not going to as ridiculous lengths to cut weight as you've had to) and fights some decent opposition/gets a few alphabet straps (even if they're off b fighters who cares right?) they'll get somewhere in the top ten.
Generally heavyweights aren't moving around different weights, so there's going to have to be an Ali or a Tyson who dominate the division and not only that but look invincible doing it.
Not going to happen at the moment... which yeah, is a bit of a stinger I guess :P
Here's another one, when's the last time a hw was ranked no.1 on a p4p list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
the Ring's p4p list for me has seriously gone down the toilet, Vazquez hasn't fought in nearly 2 yrs and is still on there, Marquez despite losing to Floyd has been more impressive than Hopkins, and wtf has Donaire done to be on the list to begin with, let alone be ahead of Cotto, it's pretty ridiculous if you ask me
No2 is perfect for Mayweather.
I wouldn't of dropped Marquez two spots though.
The guy moved up two weight classes and fought the best fighter of this generation.
Roy Jones Jr. But thats beside the point. Roy wasn't a real heavyweight anyway and was already number 1 p4p at the time so I dunno if we count that.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHere's another one, when's the last time a hw was ranked no.1 on a p4p list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
I was thinking of Mike Tyson. Ring Magazine had him ranked no. 1 for the 1989 p4p rankings and was published in early 1990. It was a little trivia that my friend discovered. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1989 - Boxrec Boxing EncyclopaediaQuote:
Originally Posted by MajestyRoy Jones Jr. But thats beside the point. Roy wasn't a real heavyweight anyway and was already number 1 p4p at the time so I dunno if we count that.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogHere's another one, when's the last time a hw was ranked no.1 on a p4p list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Pound For Pound
wow. never thought nunn was in a P4P list.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogI was thinking of Mike Tyson. Ring Magazine had him ranked no. 1 for the 1989 p4p rankings and was published in early 1990. It was a little trivia that my friend discovered. The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1989 - Boxrec Boxing EncyclopaediaQuote:
Originally Posted by MajestyRoy Jones Jr. But thats beside the point. Roy wasn't a real heavyweight anyway and was already number 1 p4p at the time so I dunno if we count that.Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldog
Pound For Pound
Ranking heavyweights P4P sort of defeats the purpose. The heavyweight champ should be able to whup all the other fighters - in reality not fantasy.
Only in exceptional circumstances - like generalbulldog's example - should Heavyweights be rated.
the HW division is currently devoid of skill. but Wlad is so dominant i guess you can put him in that list.
Wlad isn't really dominant considering his brother would mash him up.
His greatest attribute is his natural size advantage. That's why he should never make anyones P4P list.
prime for prime, i agree with you, prime vitali would obliterate current Wlad.
but i think now Wlad beats him.
I cant argue that and maybe is more realistic not based on anything other than Pac became #1 because Floyd retired but though he unretired he didnt have PFP#1 Emeritus ;D I am a fair man and that would be a kick in the nuts to put Pac back at 2 since he has been active all along and he hasnt lost.
Floyd being back is really good for the sport and the PFP, it could shift again depending on a Pac win/lose over Cotto and if Mayweather wins over Mosely.
In case they both win you would have to weigh what was more impressive Pac over Cotto or Mayweather over Mosely.. All four are in the PFP list and you gotta think whomever emerges in this little tournament will be PFP#1. Seems inevitiable, then again this is Boxing and anything can happen;)
Floyd's gonna be pissed!
the p4p rankings are a joke now, people keep thinking it's some title, and it has lost all it's meaning, it's pure crap, Pacquiao should be considered the current best and i have Mayweather as the best fighter of his generation, simple as thatQuote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Here's a good write-up by Doug Fischer from The Ring webiste.
RING Ratings Update: Does Mayweather deserve his RING rankings?
I happen to agree with him of course. ;D
He will be P4P#1 in November once Cotto has beat Pacquiao;)
Who else saw this from the main forum menu
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...mgrertired.jpg
and was also expecting the sentence to be finished with...Retired. :p
I of course being a fan of Floyd have no problem with his PFP#2 ranking
As far as Williams goes I feel he should have been ranked alot higher PFP than he was, IMO he is top 4 so the fact he got pushed out all together is bullshit
I agree that Cotto shouldnt have been pushed out of place and that he has fought more quality Welterweights so if they inserted Floyd in at 5 maybe that would have been fair since he dosent hold a title.
I will say its obvious that Mayweather and Mosely is already been set in motion and its quite obvious by these ratings and grandstanding by Hop and Mosely post fight so unfortunately its done at Cotto's expense, Miguel seems like a guy who dosent get wrapped up in this stuff anyway, he will just handle his business as usual and do what he does best... Fight!!! If his feelings are hurt I'm sure he can drown his sorrows in the millions he is making vs Pac ;D
Question, does Miguel capture PFP#1 status if he beats Pac?
Well Ali's greatest attribute was his natural speed advantage. So does that mean he shouldn't make anyone's p4p ATG lists either? I don't get that double standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You can't hold someone down because they have are naturally, physically blessed. Would Tyson have been as good without his natural speed and power?
BTW how does Celestino Caballero make the top 10? Sure he dominated Molitor, but how does that put him over guys like Chris John?
And IMO Wlad deserves to be in there more than Rafael Marquez, who I think has lost 2 of his last 3 fights. Wlad has been ruling his division for years.
Don't be silly, natural speed and natural size are completely different. You can be any size and still possess great speed but only a select few have a natural size advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerWell Ali's greatest attribute was his natural speed advantage. So does that mean he shouldn't make anyone's p4p ATG lists either? I don't get that double standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You can't hold someone down because they have are naturally, physically blessed. Would Tyson have been as good without his natural speed and power?
Wlad has a natural height, reach and weight advantage over just about everyone he's ever fought.
But getting KTFO by Corries Sanders and Lamont Brewster should preclude anybody from any list past or present ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Nah imo he would get the second spot while floyd gets bump up like how he got the title in the firsts place by bhop losing to jt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Mayweather would still have to beat MoselyQuote:
Originally Posted by Julius RainNah imo he would get the second spot while floyd gets bump up like how he got the title in the firsts place by bhop losing to jt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
I dont think so, Cotto has a win over Mosley already and a win over pac imo just puts him on the second spot(the highest his ever ranked) because floyd would reclaim the title with any lose pac suffers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT RockMayweather would still have to beat MoselyQuote:
Originally Posted by Julius RainNah imo he would get the second spot while floyd gets bump up like how he got the title in the firsts place by bhop losing to jt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Keep in mind p4p ranking is determined by many things, floyd and pac are clearly talented with their respected styles but another thing that seperates them two from the rest is the fact that they are multiply time champs in 5 and 6 different division. P4p wise i think that counts the most, how many division you've been champion at.
Be any size and still possess great speed? I think you're being silly man, how many big HWs do you know with great speed? I don't see how they are different, both are god given, genetic commodities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The point I'm trying to make is that a great fighter isn't just one or the other, he's a combination of superior athletic ability and superior talent (the best example being Floyd Mayweather).
To the people who say "oh, Wlad is only good because he's big", I pose the question if thats all it takes then why doesn't every 6'5'' + guy come into boxing and make millions. Why did I see Ty Fields, who is taller than both Klits brothers, get KO'd brutally by a journeyman a year or so ago.
People need to stop hatin on the Klitz and admit that they are where they are because of talent, and the knowledge of how to use their size to their advantage, the same way a Muhammad Ali would use his speed to his advantage.
I doubt it. They did even have him on the P4P ratings and he still considered himself number one.Quote:
Originally Posted by fan johnny
So does Valuev, however I hear herpes are his Kryptonite.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterDon't be silly, natural speed and natural size are completely different. You can be any size and still possess great speed but only a select few have a natural size advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerWell Ali's greatest attribute was his natural speed advantage. So does that mean he shouldn't make anyone's p4p ATG lists either? I don't get that double standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
You can't hold someone down because they have are naturally, physically blessed. Would Tyson have been as good without his natural speed and power?
Wlad has a natural height, reach and weight advantage over just about everyone he's ever fought.
Look this is about P4P not whether Wlad is a top heavyweight or not. Of course Wlad is a good, talented heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerBe any size and still possess great speed? I think you're being silly man, how many big HWs do you know with great speed? I don't see how they are different, both are god given, genetic commodities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The point I'm trying to make is that a great fighter isn't just one or the other, he's a combination of superior athletic ability and superior talent (the best example being Floyd Mayweather).
To the people who say "oh, Wlad is only good because he's big", I pose the question if thats all it takes then why doesn't every 6'5'' + guy come into boxing and make millions. Why did I see Ty Fields, who is taller than both Klits brothers, get KO'd brutally by a journeyman a year or so ago.
People need to stop hatin on the Klitz and admit that they are where they are because of talent, and the knowledge of how to use their size to their advantage, the same way a Muhammad Ali would use his speed to his advantage.
But the fact is he holds a considerable size advantage over the majority of his opponents. Guys like Floyd, Pac, Marquez, Mosley, Hopkins, etc (P4P fighters).. all fight guys almost identical in size to them. They never enter fights with considerable height, weight or reach advantages. It's their superior skills, abilty to beat different styles, mental toughness, heart and dedication that makes them P4P fighters.
P4P is about making a level playing field. What would happen if the fighters were the same size. As you said - Wlad uses his size to his advantage. So what happens when his size is gone? ;)
P4P is also good for making statements like so if Paul Williams only had an 8" reach would he fight like a T-Rex?Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterLook this is about P4P not whether Wlad is a top heavyweight or not. Of course Wlad is a good, talented heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerBe any size and still possess great speed? I think you're being silly man, how many big HWs do you know with great speed? I don't see how they are different, both are god given, genetic commodities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
The point I'm trying to make is that a great fighter isn't just one or the other, he's a combination of superior athletic ability and superior talent (the best example being Floyd Mayweather).
To the people who say "oh, Wlad is only good because he's big", I pose the question if thats all it takes then why doesn't every 6'5'' + guy come into boxing and make millions. Why did I see Ty Fields, who is taller than both Klits brothers, get KO'd brutally by a journeyman a year or so ago.
People need to stop hatin on the Klitz and admit that they are where they are because of talent, and the knowledge of how to use their size to their advantage, the same way a Muhammad Ali would use his speed to his advantage.
But the fact is he holds a considerable size advantage over the majority of his opponents. Guys like Floyd, Pac, Marquez, Mosley, Hopkins, etc (P4P fighters).. all fight guys almost identical in size to them. They never enter fights with considerable height, weight or reach advantages. It's their superior skills, abilty to beat different styles, mental toughness, heart and dedication that makes them P4P fighters.
P4P is about making a level playing field. What would happen if the fighters were the same size. As you said - Wlad uses his size to his advantage. So what happens when his size is gone? ;)
Well yeah P4P is obviously complete nonsense. At least Paul Williams has to weigh the same as the guys he fights though.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepP4P is also good for making statements like so if Paul Williams only had an 8" reach would he fight like a T-Rex?Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterLook this is about P4P not whether Wlad is a top heavyweight or not. Of course Wlad is a good, talented heavyweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
But the fact is he holds a considerable size advantage over the majority of his opponents. Guys like Floyd, Pac, Marquez, Mosley, Hopkins, etc (P4P fighters).. all fight guys almost identical in size to them. They never enter fights with considerable height, weight or reach advantages. It's their superior skills, abilty to beat different styles, mental toughness, heart and dedication that makes them P4P fighters.
P4P is about making a level playing field. What would happen if the fighters were the same size. As you said - Wlad uses his size to his advantage. So what happens when his size is gone? ;)
Which is ultimately irrelevant in the scheme of p4p discussion. I am absolutely convinced p4p votes are nothing more than popularity contests, there is some basis for rank, but it's impossible to rank all of boxing into one rank. And now for my BoxRec funfact for the day: There are currently 15,923 officially licensed pro boxers.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterWell yeah P4P is obviously complete nonsense. At least Paul Williams has to weigh the same as the guys he fights though.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepP4P is also good for making statements like so if Paul Williams only had an 8" reach would he fight like a T-Rex?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Basing from his last performance, I dont think Money should be the #2 P4P Boxer. I think He deserves #4 or #5.
Floyd was magnificent in that fight, he displayed the brilliance of his boxing skills and talent combined. He is fast, untouchable, powerful and tough -- almost invincible. But he did this against someone not near his caliber, no offense meant to Marquez. He did this show of power against someone handicapped by tons of disadvantages.
This is like when we watched how a Lion slays a mouse. It was meaningful if the Lion will simply crush the poor mouse in less than 2 seconds. but if the Lion took 36 long minutes to slay a mouse -- that is humiliating.
Floyd, with all the advantages dominated a lightwieght champion. Bravo. But that wouldn't make you Pound for Pound top 2. I give him the Most Skilled Boxer award or the greatest boxer of the decade -- but not the pound for pound number 2.
I give the number 2 seat to Hopkins, 3 to Mosley and 4 to Money. 5 comes for Floyd.