What Fight Would Have Changed History The Most, If It Went The Other Way?

I was watching the Mayweather-Marquez fight and it got me thinking. Had Marquez won, (he wasnt going to but this is purely hypothetical), he would have become an icon, and Mayweather would go from being, considered by many, to be one of the best fighters of the last 25 years, to being remembered for that loss. There are other variables of course like comebacks, how he lost, etc, but back to the topic; what fight in history would have changed the landscape of boxing the most if the other guy won? I'd have to say Ali-Frazier. That was probably one of the most significant fight during a difficult era. Had Ali won, not only would Frazier have been denied his greatest win, but 2 and 3 would likely have never happened.

Good question...

Ali - Foreman?

Louis - Schmelling II?

Maybe in all the wrong ways but how about James Jeffries as the "great white hope" vs Jack Johnson.

Julio Cesar Chavez and Meldrick Taylor 1990
Oscar De la hoya and Ike Quartey
Kostya Tzyu and Hatton
Augustus and Figuroa (just kidding but Augustus did win that fight)

IMO it'd be Chavez/Taylor I

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

I was watching the Mayweather-Marquez fight and it got me thinking. Had Marquez won, (he wasnt going to but this is purely hypothetical), he would have become an icon, and Mayweather would go from being, considered by many, to be one of the best fighters of the last 25 years, to being remembered for that loss. There are other variables of course like comebacks, how he lost, etc, but back to the topic; what fight in history would have changed the landscape of boxing the most if the other guy won? I'd have to say Ali-Frazier. That was probably one of the most significant fight during a difficult era. Had Ali won, not only would Frazier have been denied his greatest win, but 2 and 3 would likely have never happened. Also without that win, Frazier would have probably cut have cut his career even shorter and Cus DiAmato may have retired sooner and may have never discovered Mike Tyson. Any thoughts?

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Cus D'amato and Joe Frazier? Someone correct me, but wasn't it Eddie Futch that train Frazier his whole career?

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

I was watching the Mayweather-Marquez fight and it got me thinking. Had Marquez won, (he wasnt going to but this is purely hypothetical), he would have become an icon, and Mayweather would go from being, considered by many, to be one of the best fighters of the last 25 years, to being remembered for that loss. There are other variables of course like comebacks, how he lost, etc, but back to the topic; what fight in history would have changed the landscape of boxing the most if the other guy won? I'd have to say Ali-Frazier. That was probably one of the most significant fight during a difficult era. Had Ali won, not only would Frazier have been denied his greatest win, but 2 and 3 would likely have never happened. Also without that win, Frazier would have probably cut have cut his career even shorter and Cus DiAmato may have retired sooner and may have never discovered Mike Tyson. Any thoughts?

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Cus D'amato and Joe Frazier? Someone correct me, but wasn't it Eddie Futch that train Frazier his whole career?

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No, You are correct I was thinking about Floyd Patterson. Futch was a great trainer, maybe the greatest.

I think Chavez-Taylor would have a ematch and Chavez would win. Then I think there would be a third fight which Chavez would win too, ultimately coming out on top either way. We will never know how great Taylor could have been but I think we got tyhe best of him. Part of his style was to get in exchanges. That was how he fought. He was wreckless. If he was brought up in a different atmosphere with a diferent trainer that could keep him on his game and stick to his skills and ability, he could have been one of the greatest of all time imo.

The thing about Chavez vs Taylor,great pick....but is Taylor still 'ruined'.Physically taxing fight but that had to be one of the most mentally debilitating fights in recent memory.Two frigging seconds!Taylor could show to be a boxing fool prior to that,but after it was as if someone had flipped a switch.

James Toney vs. RJJ

#1 p4p who?

I'll say Ali-Frazier III.

And Mayweather-Hatton. We would've been spared the 2,332,506 Joe Cortez excuse threads.

Id have been interested to see if Eubank had got a mega fight with Jones had he not lost to Collins.

Same again with Calzaghe:p

I'd say Ali Frasier II

Tyson-Douglas changed the entire history of the sport and till to this day has a lasting effect.

Surely the most dramatic night in the sports history. Sure thriller in manilla, rumble in jungle are the 2 biggest fights in the sport but for sheer history tyson-douglas has to rank up their as number 1

Tyson just turned up assuming all he had to do was step in the ring and blow out just another fighter which he did for the best part of 4 rounds. All of a sudden this complete nobody was actually hurting the unbeatable force and nobody but nobody would of gone on to predict what actually happened!!

Naz v Barerra

I would have said Clay and Liston. If Liston beat him what would become of Clay. Would he have become Ali ? Would have fought Frazier? What the hell would havew happenend.

If Joe Louis wasn't knocked out by Schmeling the first time he would have been the greatest fighter to have ever laced up gloves.

I say World War 2...

What about Hopkins-De la Hoya, RJJ or Titio? Oscar wins and he and Hopkins switch places on the all-time great list. Suddenly all those middleweight defenses vs. nobodies look worse if the 1st time he steps up and fights a great fighter he loses. Tito is an all time great if he knocks out Bernard. Jones Jr. doesn't look as shiney with a real lose on his record early in the game as well.

Cassius Clay vs Henry Cooper.

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Originally Posted by The Fightfan

I would have said Clay and Liston. If Liston beat him what would become of Clay. Would he have become Ali ? Would have fought Frazier? What the hell would havew happenend.

If Joe Louis wasn't knocked out by Schmeling the first time he would have been the greatest fighter to have ever laced up gloves.

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Good call

Had defending champion Ledwaba stopped a replacement fighter in the then unkown Manny Pacquiao... Barrera, Morales, Dela Hoya, and Hatton will would have had surely, better longevity to their careers, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Had defending champion Ledwaba stopped a replacement fighter in the then unkown Manny Pacquiao... Barrera, Morales, Dela Hoya, and Hatton will would have had surely, better longevity to their careers, to say the least.

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Just couldn't help yourself could you?? :rolleyes:

Well, at least the one beneficial impact of that is we wouldn't have tiresome posters such as yourself constantly looking to bring up their idol at any opportunity.

I'd say Ali-Frazier III was the one to pop to mind, especially as it was so close to going the other way. Ali-Foreman is another one, as that was the fight that really defined greatness.

Going with something different though, I'll side with Duran-Leonard II. Had Leonard not won, had there been no 'No Mas', we would have never had SRL-Hearns & I think it would have completely destroyed the subsequent fights of The Four Kings. Duran would have probably got KO'd by Hearns any way, but I reckon Hearns would box Hagler to a decision, similar to much of the fight with Leonard & there would not be the same mysticism around them. Similar to how there now isn't about Wilfred Benitez, who at the time many were saying was the successor to Sugar Ray Robinson.

Probably Ali/Liston, because at the time (from what I understand) Ali was looked at as a lot of talk, people didn't like him so if he lost to Liston it would have taken him a looong time to work his way back up. He probably wouldn't have become a huge name before the war, and assuming he still dodged the draft, probably would have never become a big name.

The other one that comes to mind is Louis/Schmelling 2. I guess if Max whipped Joe again, it would have been a huge blow to boxing and morale in the US.

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Had defending champion Ledwaba stopped a replacement fighter in the then unkown Manny Pacquiao... Barrera, Morales, Dela Hoya, and Hatton will would have had surely, better longevity to their careers, to say the least.

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gay

What is wrong with the statement I just made, Mr. Jazmerkin?

Did it not speak the truth? Did it not have relevance to the thread? And, did it not address a strong opinion positively supporting the argument by the thread starter, that a single fight can and possibly has, a huge impact in the course of boxing history?

Unless you want to "supress" honest opinions, statements with anything to do with Pacquiao, or anything that will remotely resemble any uncomplimentary remark towards Hatton, I see no wrong with the statement I had just expressed.

And to mind, it was short, non-coated at that, reason being for fear of a backlash from people like you! The days for honesty here is definitely numbered.

Last time I checked... democracy is still the order of the day here at Saddo. Or has it been changed the by mere strength and wisdom of your thoughts, MR. JazMerkin?

Has it now changed.....?

Well if it had, congratulations! Within your simple mind, you've accomplished in your own perspective, "the" better world.

The only snag is... it is significantly a much smaller world, your version... but at least without the disagreeables. It will be a world full of the "yes'ems" that you long for!

I agree with
Jeffries v Jack Johnson
Louis v Schmeling II

Marciano v Jersey Joe Walcott
Ali v Frasier I (considered even more greater?)
Hearns v SRL
Hearns v Hagler

Jim Jeffries vs Jack Johnson
and
Joe Louis vs Max Schmelling II

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Originally Posted by Master

I agree with
Jeffries v Jack Johnson
Louis v Schmeling II

Marciano v Jersey Joe Walcott
Ali v Frasier I (considered even more greater?)
Hearns v SRL
Hearns v Hagler

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Can you stop and just think of the aftermath had either went the other way?Propaganda overflow for idiots

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

What is wrong with the statement I just made, Mr. Jazmerkin?

Did it not speak the truth? Did it not have relevance to the thread? And, did it not address a strong opinion positively supporting the argument by the thread starter, that a single fight can and possibly has, a huge impact in the course of boxing history?

Unless you want to "supress" honest opinions, statements with anything to do with Pacquiao, or anything that will remotely resemble any uncomplimentary remark towards Hatton, I see no wrong with the statement I had just expressed.

And to mind, it was short, non-coated at that, reason being for fear of a backlash from people like you! The days for honesty here is definitely numbered.

Last time I checked... democracy is still the order of the day here at Saddo. Or has it been changed the by mere strength and wisdom of your thoughts, MR. JazMerkin?

Has it now changed.....?

Well if it had, congratulations! Within your simple mind, you've accomplished in your own perspective, "the" better world.

The only snag is... it is significantly a much smaller world, your version... but at least without the disagreeables. It will be a world full of the "yes'ems" that you long for!

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You're right, I didn't realize how oppressed you are, you're the Mandela for the 21st century :rolleyes:

Ok, first of all I couldn't give a flying fuck what people say about Hatton, I'm not a fan, although I was at his fight with Pacquiao as a BOXING fan. You see the difference there, I'm a fan of the sport not of one fighter.

The question was which fight changed HISTORY the most. Not which fight could have led to less morons with zero interest in the sport on here telling us we know nothing, & that boxing was nothing prior to the emergence of Manny Pacquiao as a star.

He has yet to have anywhere near the impact on the sport or its history of a Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali or Ray Leonard. Hell, he has yet to have the impact of a Tyson or a De La Hoya. My favourite fighter is Floyd Mayweather, but you don't see me going 'if Genaro Hernandez had managed to beat a green, young former Olympian whose father once fought Ray Leonard, than the lives of Corrales, Chavez, Castillo, De La Hoya, Hatton & Marquez would be that bit simpler to say the least'. You know why I didn't do that? Because I would be a pompous fool, trying to just lick my fighter's balls that bit more, when in actuality it is of not great enough significance to answer the thread question.

You want to know why people get pissed off about you mentioning Pacquiao?? Because he is the only boxer you mention. Why do you think no one gets annoyed if OumaFan or C-Lo mentions Pacquiao? Because they don't do it all the time & frequently discuss other fighters.

I don't care if people discuss Pacquiao as long as they don't look to do it every opportunity they get, & then act like they are some oppressed minority when they get called on it. I hate Pac-fanboys, Hatton fanboys, Tszyu fanboys & Trinidad fanboys. I don't care who the fighter is, but any fan who wants to sit on a particular fighter's cock is of no use to this site.

Oh, & this isn't a democracy, it's a boxing forum. You can't say whatever you like, because as demonstrated by a number of former members, you will get the boot. This is an Autocracy & Saddo is the man in charge, he decides what goes.

Btw, your pretentious writing style just makes you seem more like Alan Partridge than Ernest Hemingway.

Now, feel free to call the human rights lawyers on me :cool:

I'd have to say...

Jack Johnson vs. Jim Jeffries
Joe Louis vs. Max Schmeling 2
Muhammad Ali vs. Henry Cooper 1
Marco Antonio Barrera vs. Naseem Hamed

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

What is wrong with the statement I just made, Mr. Jazmerkin?

Did it not speak the truth? Did it not have relevance to the thread? And, did it not address a strong opinion positively supporting the argument by the thread starter, that a single fight can and possibly has, a huge impact in the course of boxing history?

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Unless you want to "supress" honest opinions, statements with anything to do with Pacquiao, or anything that will remotely resemble any uncomplimentary remark towards Hatton, I see no wrong with the statement I had just expressed.

And to mind, it was short, non-coated at that, reason being for fear of a backlash from people like you! The days for honesty here is definitely numbered.

Last time I checked... democracy is still the order of the day here at Saddo. Or has it been changed the by mere strength and wisdom of your thoughts, MR. JazMerkin?

Has it now changed.....?

Well if it had, congratulations! Within your simple mind, you've accomplished in your own perspective, "the" better world.

The only snag is... it is significantly a much smaller world, your version... but at least without the disagreeables. It will be a world full of the "yes'ems" that you long for!

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no cause basically most on that list were already coming to the end of their careers anyway, so if it wasn't Pacquiao it would of been someone else

Tyson-Holyfield I. I wonder if Tyson had won that fight how would his legacy turn out? Would he be viewed as being a more dominant HW champion that deserves a ranking up there with the all time greats or would the same what if questions would still be asked of his career?

Duran vs Dejesus II what if Duran lost the second ?
Would he be talked about as the greatest lightweight?

Hearns vs Leonard I if Hearns knocked Ray out. Hearns would have been the greatest welterweight of all time eh I still think that though.

Michael Moorer and George Foreman. If Michael beats George he probably would get a shot at Tyson and I think Teddy knew Tyson more than he knew himself I think Moorer beats Tyson after that.

If the Ravens didn't beat the Giants in superbowl XXXV. Sorry wrong sport.

Dude I got tons of these I am outta here.

If Hearns had of sparked Hagler, then Hearns would of got the biggest 'W' of his career and Hagler would have had only Duran as his best win.

Kinda reshapes the fab-4 argument...

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

If Hearns had of sparked Hagler, then Hearns would of got the biggest 'W' of his career and Hagler would have had only Duran as his best win.

Kinda reshapes the fab-4 argument...

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A big 'If' though mate ;D

I still think Hearns was arguably more talented than any of them (maybe not Duran :-\) he just had a suspect beard and spiders legs.

If fights were 12 rounds back then, he would've beaten Leonard, he was robbed in the rematch draw and he KOed Duran

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Originally Posted by BIG H

If fights were 12 rounds back then, he would've beaten Leonard, he was robbed in the rematch draw and he KOed Duran

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I agree, it's a shame he's viewd as that guy who lost all his big fights.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

If Hearns had of sparked Hagler, then Hearns would of got the biggest 'W' of his career and Hagler would have had only Duran as his best win.

Kinda reshapes the fab-4 argument...

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A big 'If' though mate ;D

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Hehe, okay, IF Hearns hadn't had a homoerotic rub-down in the spider leg region, then proceded to brake his hand off Hagler's Jaw..... Maybe then it wouldn't be such a big IF ;D

Theres so many what ifs in the sport of boxing.

Benn vs McClellan

Hopkins vs Trinidad

Frazier vs Ali 1

Chavez vs Randall 1

Hopkins vs Jones

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Originally Posted by jon09

Theres so many what ifs in the sport of boxing.

Benn vs McClellan

Hopkins vs Trinidad

Frazier vs Ali 1

Chavez vs Randall 1

Hopkins vs Jones

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Andrew 'kid Thunder' Hartley v Charlie Zelenoff ;)

Tua vs Lewis

Tua came in ultra fat like every heavyweight I put my money on and lost on points. It's been a hard business for the short powerpunchers in boxing past few years.. When are we going to get another Tyson, Frazier, Patterson, or Tua?

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

I was watching the Mayweather-Marquez fight and it got me thinking. Had Marquez won, (he wasnt going to but this is purely hypothetical), he would have become an icon, and Mayweather would go from being, considered by many, to be one of the best fighters of the last 25 years, to being remembered for that loss. There are other variables of course like comebacks, how he lost, etc, but back to the topic; what fight in history would have changed the landscape of boxing the most if the other guy won? I'd have to say Ali-Frazier. That was probably one of the most significant fight during a difficult era. Had Ali won, not only would Frazier have been denied his greatest win, but 2 and 3 would likely have never happened. Also without that win, Frazier would have probably cut have cut his career even shorter and Cus DiAmato may have retired sooner and may have never discovered Mike Tyson. Any thoughts?

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Cus D'amato and Joe Frazier? Someone correct me, but wasn't it Eddie Futch that train Frazier his whole career?

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Futch took over the main training duties after Yank Durham died

Dempsey lost to Willard.
Ken Norton v Holmes

No 7 year reign from either heavyweight great.