Michael Moore's "Capitalism"

Michael Moore seems to be a filmmaker that polarises people. People seem to be strongly for his ideas or against him no matter what. Personally, I don't see why people would be against him. His ideas are human and his intentions are obviously just. Who would now disagree with the gist of Fahrenheit 9-11? Sicko is a film that probably has more relevance now than when it was released. And now Moore has struck again whilst the iron is hot with Capitalism: A love story. I haven't seen this film yet and have no idea when it is ever going to be released out here. But I really want to see it as it is probably going to be a funny and insightful piece of filmmaking.

So, I was just wondering who has seen this yet and what peoples views are. And please no arguments like "Capitalism has been good to Michael Moore...just look at his waistline!" or "Why doesn't he give away all his wealth?". Those arguments are shallow and totally missing the point.

Seeing as I can't watch the film I have been following Moore's publicity run and this has been my favourite interview so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4djfc...e=channel_page

Too many of the other interviewers, particularly that muppet Sean Hannity, have their set agenda and argue the most ridiculous things. I quite like this one though as Moore is able to present his case freely.

I like Michael Moore, I think he raises important issues and his influence through his documentaries is enough to act as some kind of check and counterbalance.

I'm sure that not everything he says is accurate and I daresay he has his own agenda as much as any political party, but he still highlights issues and concerns that need to be highlighted.

And not just him, but even documentarists like Morgon Spurlock got McDonalds to introduce healthier food options on their menu as a result of his Supersize Me film.

If nobody spoke out about anything those in power could just do whatever they willed so even if we don't agree with the views of a particular individual or organisation we should be thankful they exist mostly as a conflict of ideas and values leads to a tug of war battle that keeps most things kind of balanced and in the middle, rather than no opposition and one team just pulls the rope over to their side and keeps the rope so they don't have to play any more.

Anything to prevent extremism and totalitarianism I'm all for.

Fair comments, Bilbo.

I like a lot of Michael Moore's stuff and I've seen all of the documentaries he has made, but I haven't seen all of his early television stuff nor read all of his books.

I think Michael Moore is a decent hearted, patriotic American who wants better for his country. He points out flaws in the system and advocates reform in order to improve the lives of ordinary people. It is vitally important that people like him are around. Most of us ordinary folks are quick to complain about the system, but never actually get off of our arses and do anything about it. But Moore keeps on doing his thing and urging people to do even simple things like actually getting out and voting.

This film couldn't have come out at a more suitable time really. The stock market bubble continues to grow whilst unemployment still shoots up. The economy is tanking and I can really see a nose dive happening in the next year, I think it's going to get a lot worse and the global ramifications will be huge. I'm less optimistic than Moore in that I think think America is economically spent and it's time for a paradigm shift in the world economic order.

The first thing to do is to reign in the corruption on wall street and in the banks, but it seems that Obama is unwilling to do it. The eventual implosion will only be more dramatic if things continue as they are now. The banks were given tax payer money to get things pumping again and still people are losing their homes because of dodgy mortgage financing. It's only going to get worse because nothing has been addressed.

I don't like Michael Moore on a more personal level. I know you are in Korea miles and Bilbo is God knows where, but I live in the left wing capital of the world. In fact, both Farenheight 9/11 and Bowling For Columbine had their first showings in Santa Rosa, where amat was born.

Michael Moore annoys the fck out of me there is a VERY strong possibility that I might hate Michael Moore more then even Lyle does. He's manipulative, NEVER tells the whole truth, only half truths, his films are just so damn misleading about what the actual facts are. Actually, I only watched Bowling For Colombine and Farenheight 9/11, and when those films are actually fact checked it's shocking :o And SOOOO many people here just accepts those facts as the end all, in fact the extent of their political views extend to the 4 hours they dedicated to Michael Moore films. It pisses me off.

Seriously, I am on the same side of the fence as Moore politically about a lot of things, I HATE how he goes about it. He sucks, those are my thoughts. Oh yeah Michael Moore has been treated very well by capitalism, check out his waistline. Michael Moore is on camera an awful lot for a repulsive fat guy. Why doesn't Michael Moore shave? Is it because if he did he would look like Peter Griffin pushing a cause? Those are my thoughts.

There were some great sites debunking all the BS Michael Moore perpetuates but I am halfway to drunk I can't be bothered to find them.

Michael Moore obviously has his own ideals and perspective, but people realise that before going to the movie theater. I haven't seem Capitalism yet, but I'm pretty certain that I am going to see some images of Bush pulling stupid faces. I expect that, but then I loathe Bush and think he caused a lot more harm than good during his tenure. I think he needs to be called out. I also think he is a war criminal, but that's not really related to Capitalism the movie. :p

You get a film like Sicko and even with a rudimentary understanding of the US health care system you go into the movie theater knowing full well that this isn't going to be a movie extolling the virtues of a privatised/insurance based health care system.

I've just done a quick Google search on "Moore and fact checking" and there seems to be a fair bit of stuff out there. I will peruse some of it out of interest, but these are often people with political perspectives and agendas of their own to push.

And I said at the start of the thread not to bring up Michael Moores waistline! ;D

....words cannot describe my dislike of that horrid bastard

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Originally Posted by Lyle

....words cannot describe my dislike of that horrid bastard

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:lol:

I knew Lyle would have something to add to this thread! :p

Michael Moore tells half truths and twists everything to fit his view on the world. He's wrong about guns, wrong about healthcare, wrong about 9/11, and he'll be wrong about Capitalism.

Don't expect me to buy any of his propaganda anytime soon and don't expect me to brake if I see him crossing the street.


Michael Moore and Bill Maher are just horrible, I doubt if even Michael Savage mirrors them on the Right, that's how far off the board Left those two bastards are. And the thing is they want everyone to believe if anyone on the right extended a hand to them then they would be friendly towards it, but they are mean, bitter, and spiteful people and they enjoy playing to their base moreso than anyone main stream on the right...Limbaugh isn't even close to being as polarizing as those two

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Originally Posted by amat

I don't like Michael Moore on a more personal level. I know you are in Korea miles and Bilbo is God knows where, but I live in the left wing capital of the world. In fact, both Farenheight 9/11 and Bowling For Columbine had their first showings in Santa Rosa, where amat was born.

Michael Moore annoys the fck out of me there is a VERY strong possibility that I might hate Michael Moore more then even Lyle does. He's manipulative, NEVER tells the whole truth, only half truths, his films are just so damn misleading about what the actual facts are. Actually, I only watched Bowling For Colombine and Farenheight 9/11, and when those films are actually fact checked it's shocking :o And SOOOO many people here just accepts those facts as the end all, in fact the extent of their political views extend to the 4 hours they dedicated to Michael Moore films. It pisses me off.

Seriously, I am on the same side of the fence as Moore politically about a lot of things, I HATE how he goes about it. He sucks, those are my thoughts. Oh yeah Michael Moore has been treated very well by capitalism, check out his waistline. Michael Moore is on camera an awful lot for a repulsive fat guy. Why doesn't Michael Moore shave? Is it because if he did he would look like Peter Griffin pushing a cause? Those are my thoughts.

There were some great sites debunking all the BS Michael Moore perpetuates but I am halfway to drunk I can't be bothered to find them.

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Quite. Just went to prove that MM was responsible for making those bullied kids kill all those lovely people. He's clearly a communist for suggesting such a thing.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Michael Moore tells half truths and twists everything to fit his view on the world. He's wrong about guns, wrong about healthcare, wrong about 9/11, and he'll be wrong about Capitalism.

Don't expect me to buy any of his propaganda anytime soon and don't expect me to brake if I see him crossing the street.


Michael Moore and Bill Maher are just horrible, I doubt if even Michael Savage mirrors them on the Right, that's how far off the board Left those two bastards are. And the thing is they want everyone to believe if anyone on the right extended a hand to them then they would be friendly towards it, but they are mean, bitter, and spiteful people and they enjoy playing to their base moreso than anyone main stream on the right...Limbaugh isn't even close to being as polarizing as those two

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er no!

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Michael Moore tells half truths and twists everything to fit his view on the world. He's wrong about guns, wrong about healthcare, wrong about 9/11, and he'll be wrong about Capitalism.

Don't expect me to buy any of his propaganda anytime soon and don't expect me to brake if I see him crossing the street.


Michael Moore and Bill Maher are just horrible, I doubt if even Michael Savage mirrors them on the Right, that's how far off the board Left those two bastards are. And the thing is they want everyone to believe if anyone on the right extended a hand to them then they would be friendly towards it, but they are mean, bitter, and spiteful people and they enjoy playing to their base moreso than anyone main stream on the right...Limbaugh isn't even close to being as polarizing as those two

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How is he wrong about guns? They are dangerous weapons and kill a lot of people in the US each year. I have never understood the whole gun culture thing TBH.

How is he wrong about healthcare? He showed how corporate greed and irresponsible government policy has left a lot of people without insurance and how even those with insurance are oftentimes rejected of their claims. Health costs are apparently the main reason for bankruptcy in the States. The system needs to be reformed and Moore advocates this.

How was he wrong about 9-11? Bin Laden has never been captured. Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks anyway and the excuse for war was a lie. Both wars continue all these years later and Afghanistan appears to be unwinnable. Even the so called democratic government cheated its way to victory. Surely, that wasn't the goal. Many soldiers died just to replace a corrupt system with another less evil but equally corrupt system?

How is he wrong about capitalism? The system has failed and America is in deep credit. Wall street and the banking leaders continue to bank whilst the biggest economic disaster since the great depression is right around the corner (next year is when it really comes apart). The system as it currently exists does not work, it needs to be reformed.

I'm not attacking you here, Lyle. I'm just curious to know why you oppose Moore so much on these things. As far as I can see Moore is a fairly moral human being who wants better for his fellow citizens. Is that such a bad thing? I don't understand the intense dislike some have for Moore really.

Moore is a bit of a hypocrite and comes out with some shit but he makes serious subjects, and boring ones, entertaining, which obviously gets people to take interest. Good stuff.

Plus if Lyle thinks he's wrong about everything that's a good thing too. Lets be honest now.

I don't care that much either way, he makes some interesting points at times and I agree with him about a fair amount of stuff but yeah you kind of have to have a bullshit meter on when you watch his stuff, kind of like if you watch Fox News but not as bad.

OK, here we go...

On guns, Moore thinks it's too easy for people to get them, they are too dangerous for people to own, and that guns are ONLY used to kill other people. When in reality #1 it's not very easy to get certain types of guns (automatic especially), if someone wants to sell you a hot gun or if you're a felon and you want a hot gun (ie a gun that has been used in a crime or was stolen) it's easy but it's also big time ILLEGAL #2 Guns are a deadly weapon which is why in some states you must pass a background check, training/safety course, and provide a reason for why you want the gun. The majority of LEGAL gun owners (I would estimate well over 90%) are very careful and serious around guns. #3 Guns are used for hunting, sport(target shooting), and for protection and those shouldn't be affected by idiots....idiots also drive cars, drink beer and liquor, and can fly planes.

On healthcare he's just plain wrong....if you got sick or injured would you rather be in America or England or Cuba or Canada??? If I had cancer I'd rather be here in the US because we are successful at treating cancer, more than Cuba, more than England, and more than Canada....sure I may have some hefty bills to pay, but I would be ALIVE.

Miles he skewed the facts about 9/11 it is a FACT. Now thanks to Moore and guys like John Stewart they think W just sat on his ass reading to little kids when he knew we were being attacked....that is a LIE. W didn't know, hell NOBODY knew we were being attacked until the 2nd plane crashed into the tower and....well the entire purpose of the film was to make George W. Bush look like a retard and everyone can go ahead and make their jokes and do all that crap but the man didn't panic, he kept his calm, and for that moment in time he showed some leadership. Have you ever thought for one second what may have happened if he just lept up and ran out of that classroom??? Do you not figure the entire country would have gone ape shit crazy??? And what was W going to do about the situation? At that moment in time it's the CIA/FBI and Pentagon that have to sort out what is happening and give W options for retaliation and prepare an address to the American people. I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Miles, Capitalism works....are people better off in China or Russia than they are in America??? Are people better off in Cuba??? Capitalism has been very kind to our Middle Eastern friends who are sitting on all that oil. Did you ever make comparisons between East and West Germany during the Cold War??? Did anyone WANT to live in East Germany??? Does anyone WANT to live in North Korea??? Are there a lot of jobs in those countries??? Do they pay well??? "A rising tide floats all boats", JFK said that when he cut taxes in order to help create more jobs and that my friend is capitalism at it's best.

Michael Moore is a fucking moron, he lies in a genre of art DOCUMENTARY that is supposed to be objective and tell FACTS, instead he spins things....and because of that I think he's a horrible person.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

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Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

I'm pretty sure I recall Bush coming on TV later that day. Maybe he was in Nebraska but I don't think it was 3 days before he came on TV. And yeah, it's the Bullshitometer Oumafan referenced only it might be worse then Fox News. Agenda or no agenda he is a chronic bullshitter. And yes he is WRONG about guns him picking fights with fucken Charlton Heston (who was ignorant anyways) and Dick Clark (like Dick Clark was actually aware of that lady's situation) was just stupid. The whole thing was like a giant Starr post, it was made to distract you from the real points. He's a douche, pompous, arrogant and because of that he's also fat.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

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...surprise surprise, guess who bought that fat moron's story.

When the first plane hit nobody knew what was going on Ari Fleischer told W to stay where he was and not mention anything until they gathered the proper information. After the 2nd plane hit and Bush was notified of it, he was escorted out of the classroom and got on board Air Force 1 and later on September 11th he addressed the American people.

People like you Kirkland will call out any and all "talking heads" on the right without batting an eye, but you will apparently take anything Michael Moore or Bill Maher says as the 100% gospel truth....fucking hypocrits

Bill Maher on the other hand is awesome.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Bill Maher on the other hand is awesome.

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He's an awesome jackass and a hypocrit as well, same with Keith Olberman

Bill Maher has always been so smug I can't stand that type of attitude so I haven't watched much of him. Keith Olberman does a pretty good job in studio for Football Night in America. Otherwise he's the democratic Bill O'Reilly. Obviously I find O'Reilly 10 times more insufferable but that's just because of my political leanings.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

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...surprise surprise, guess who bought that fat moron's story.

When the first plane hit nobody knew what was going on Ari Fleischer told W to stay where he was and not mention anything until they gathered the proper information. After the 2nd plane hit and Bush was notified of it, he was escorted out of the classroom and got on board Air Force 1 and later on September 11th he addressed the American people.

People like you Kirkland will call out any and all "talking heads" on the right without batting an eye, but you will apparently take anything Michael Moore or Bill Maher says as the 100% gospel truth....fucking hypocrits

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You're wrong again! After he'd been told the second plane hit he sat there for seven minutes. Then flew to Nebraska and hid in the side of a mountain for three days. Giuliani went on TV the same day and made a reputation for himself vy taking control while Bush was hiding. Then Bush failed to get the guy who did it and then said he wasn't bothered if he didn't get him.

Bush's 9/11 Visit to Booker Elementary School- THE VIDEO

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Bill Maher on the other hand is awesome.

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He's an awesome jackass and a hypocrit as well, same with Keith Olberman

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How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

OK, here we go...

On guns, Moore thinks it's too easy for people to get them, they are too dangerous for people to own, and that guns are ONLY used to kill other people. When in reality #1 it's not very easy to get certain types of guns (automatic especially), if someone wants to sell you a hot gun or if you're a felon and you want a hot gun (ie a gun that has been used in a crime or was stolen) it's easy but it's also big time ILLEGAL #2 Guns are a deadly weapon which is why in some states you must pass a background check, training/safety course, and provide a reason for why you want the gun. The majority of LEGAL gun owners (I would estimate well over 90%) are very careful and serious around guns. #3 Guns are used for hunting, sport(target shooting), and for protection and those shouldn't be affected by idiots....idiots also drive cars, drink beer and liquor, and can fly planes.

On healthcare he's just plain wrong....if you got sick or injured would you rather be in America or England or Cuba or Canada??? If I had cancer I'd rather be here in the US because we are successful at treating cancer, more than Cuba, more than England, and more than Canada....sure I may have some hefty bills to pay, but I would be ALIVE.

Miles he skewed the facts about 9/11 it is a FACT. Now thanks to Moore and guys like John Stewart they think W just sat on his ass reading to little kids when he knew we were being attacked....that is a LIE. W didn't know, hell NOBODY knew we were being attacked until the 2nd plane crashed into the tower and....well the entire purpose of the film was to make George W. Bush look like a retard and everyone can go ahead and make their jokes and do all that crap but the man didn't panic, he kept his calm, and for that moment in time he showed some leadership. Have you ever thought for one second what may have happened if he just lept up and ran out of that classroom??? Do you not figure the entire country would have gone ape shit crazy??? And what was W going to do about the situation? At that moment in time it's the CIA/FBI and Pentagon that have to sort out what is happening and give W options for retaliation and prepare an address to the American people. I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Miles, Capitalism works....are people better off in China or Russia than they are in America??? Are people better off in Cuba??? Capitalism has been very kind to our Middle Eastern friends who are sitting on all that oil. Did you ever make comparisons between East and West Germany during the Cold War??? Did anyone WANT to live in East Germany??? Does anyone WANT to live in North Korea??? Are there a lot of jobs in those countries??? Do they pay well??? "A rising tide floats all boats", JFK said that when he cut taxes in order to help create more jobs and that my friend is capitalism at it's best.

Michael Moore is a fucking moron, he lies in a genre of art DOCUMENTARY that is supposed to be objective and tell FACTS, instead he spins things....and because of that I think he's a horrible person.

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Fair play on answering my questions, though I do take issue with a number of the points you make.

When it comes to gun ownership I just don't get it. I understand that America is a gun centred place but as someone who has only lived in places where guns are simply not available, I struggle to see their relevance in a modern industrialised society. I am never going to be shot living where I am and I am grateful for it. Homicide just doesn't happen in schools out here and there is no need for zero tolerance behaviour where every child is treated like a potential terrorist.

These are some scary stats:

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident) USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36 Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07 Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10 Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04 Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10 Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10 France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49 England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03 Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02 Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0 Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.


When it comes to healthcare I think I would prefer to be treated in UK if given the choice of the US or the UK. And I would choose Canada over Cuba. The UK's NHS is a better model when compared to the system the US currently has. It's not perfect, but it is certainly not as flawed as the system the states has. It's funded by taxation and everybody is covered. I much prefer that to a system that either excludes or denies on a regular basis.

In terms of 9-11. I think Moore's potrayal of Bush was fairly accurate. He was a loafing, lazy president who couldn't think for himself. Responding to the attacks by targeting nations rather than using other means of targeting the actual terrorist group that caused the attacks was a fallacy and one of the reasons Bin Laden hasn't been captured and why America is still embroiled in two pointless wars. The Iraq war was expecially fucked up and I would still like to see Blair and Bush strung up as war criminals for bypassing the UN. Afghanistan was more just seeing as they harboured the Taliban, but rather than try to capture Al Quaeda through networking and forging links the US decided to do it the GI Joe way. Marching on in there without a plan and still there years later....and supporting a government that is highly corrupt.


And capitalism works? To an extent I would agree with you, but when it comes to modern banking practices and Wall Street running amok I think the system is fatally flawed. China is doing quite well. As is India. As is Brazil. As is Korea. I would argue that people in these developing countries aren't quite hurting as much as the US is now. A further quarter of a millions jobs lost last month and it expecting to rise through the next year. Oh, but the stock market is getting better! It shows the disparity between the American people and whats going on in Wall Street. Americans are losing their homes and have no savings. But yes, you can buy fast food very cheaply. The US doesn't appear to be a good place to live right now looking at the figures I am seeing. I am not against capitalism, but I am against ripping off your own citizens and that's what has been happening in the US for years. Why haven't real wages gone up in nigh on 30 years in the states? Quality of life is definitely not rising...but it is in many other countries where capitalism is still working.

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Originally Posted by amat

I'm pretty sure I recall Bush coming on TV later that day. Maybe he was in Nebraska but I don't think it was 3 days before he came on TV. And yeah, it's the Bullshitometer Oumafan referenced only it might be worse then Fox News. Agenda or no agenda he is a chronic bullshitter. And yes he is WRONG about guns him picking fights with fucken Charlton Heston (who was ignorant anyways) and Dick Clark (like Dick Clark was actually aware of that lady's situation) was just stupid. The whole thing was like a giant Starr post, it was made to distract you from the real points. He's a douche, pompous, arrogant and because of that he's also fat.

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Wasn't Heston suffering the affects of Alzhiemers at the time as well?

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by amat

I'm pretty sure I recall Bush coming on TV later that day. Maybe he was in Nebraska but I don't think it was 3 days before he came on TV. And yeah, it's the Bullshitometer Oumafan referenced only it might be worse then Fox News. Agenda or no agenda he is a chronic bullshitter. And yes he is WRONG about guns him picking fights with fucken Charlton Heston (who was ignorant anyways) and Dick Clark (like Dick Clark was actually aware of that lady's situation) was just stupid. The whole thing was like a giant Starr post, it was made to distract you from the real points. He's a douche, pompous, arrogant and because of that he's also fat.

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Wasn't Heston suffering the affects of Alzhiemers at the time as well?

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Heston only announced that in August 2002 according to Wiki. The interview must have been a fair time before anyone outside of Hestons camp would have had any suspicions. At the end of the day Heston invited Moore in and Moore asked some questions that Heston was unable to deal with. I don't see the big deal. Moore left without shooting anybody with a gun and maybe Heston felt like an idiot for letting Moore in. Heston was lucid enough, it wasn't like he was in the advanced stages of whatever illness was becoming apparent.

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

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Well on religion alone, Maher is an unabashed atheist and he dislikes anything having to do with religion(especially organized religion) and he doesn't want them pushing their religion on everyone else (that's fair enough and on that point I agree) but at the same time he pushes his atheism on everyone. He also calls out Republican talking heads for stoking partisanship and racism but he does the exact same thing, it's just he's a liberal so it's ok when he does it.

Miles, guns are legal in America which is probably why we have more gun violence and your numbers mean NOTHING because they do not relay how LEGAL gun owners handle their weapons as opposed to just some thug who wants to do a drive by.

Despite what anyone may think, we were going to Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11. Both Bill Clinton AND Al Gore escalated their stance on Iraq in the late 1990's and early 2000's. They may not have decided to overthrow Saddam but there was going to be a military action taken against Iraq no matter what.

As for Capitalism, are there more poor people in America or in China, India, and Brazil? I'd say we're pretty fair off.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

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Well on religion alone, Maher is an unabashed atheist and he dislikes anything having to do with religion(especially organized religion) and he doesn't want them pushing their religion on everyone else (that's fair enough and on that point I agree) but at the same time he pushes his atheism on everyone. He also calls out Republican talking heads for stoking partisanship and racism but he does the exact same thing, it's just he's a liberal so it's ok when he does it.

Miles, guns are legal in America which is probably why we have more gun violence and your numbers mean NOTHING because they do not relay how LEGAL gun owners handle their weapons as opposed to just some thug who wants to do a drive by.

Despite what anyone may think, we were going to Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11. Both Bill Clinton AND Al Gore escalated their stance on Iraq in the late 1990's and early 2000's. They may not have decided to overthrow Saddam but there was going to be a military action taken against Iraq no matter what.

As for Capitalism, are there more poor people in America or in China, India, and Brazil? I'd say we're pretty fair off.

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The numbers do mean something though. The numbers indicate quite clearly that gun crime in America is significantly higher than anywhere else in the world. Just look at the difference between America and Japan where guns are not easily obtained. It's immense. I do agree that those in legal possession of firearms are probably less likely to commit offences, but I don't know the statistics for that.

The war on Iraq we have debated in the past and I think we have the same views we have always had really.

In terms of Capitalism, it seems that quality of life has been stagnating for many years now in the US and is now being hit hard because of years of letting the markets just do what they want. It does need serious reforming. Of course, the quality of life is decent compared with most places, but it is slipping for many people week by week. There is no obvious recovery in sight and national debt is at horrifying levels. It's a topic that has sparked my curiosity in the last few months and I'm following things more than I should. A lot of doom and gloom stuff. I should stop.

Miles, that tells about gun crime, it doesn't tell about how many gun oweners there are (it just uses population in general which means felons, violent criminals, mentally unstable, etc), it also doesn't tell about how many of the guns used in crimes were legally owned or not (which is a huge issue)...so you only see the bad things guns do in what you posted, you don't see how responsible the vast majority of LEGAL gun owners are and you don't see where guns are used to stop crime.

Yeah I'm actually for gun laws as in making sure we try to keep them in the right hands but I badly want to own a gun, almost to the point where I would want to just ask some people if they know where I can get one I'm sure I could. That would lead to trouble but I live alone in an apartment in a nice area but it's 300,000 thousand people here and I live by 2 schools where there are people scheming there every night. It's kind of nerve racking sometimes I've had a crackhead (literally, a complete fucking crackhead) sneak in my house when I was checking my mail after I got home at like 11 at night and try to rummage my dresser. Other times I've had some complete fcking strangers knock on my door hella late at night probably because they smelled weed at like 2 am. I've probably had 3 nerve racking moments in my time living here where I've really wanted a gun and almost felt like I needed one. It would be better to own one I would never support

Like I say, I just don't understand gun ownership. I don't think humans are particularly rational creatures and in those less lucid moments they can be stir fry crazy. The fact that criminals, mentalists, and pschopaths can readily get access to guns and cause damage is bad in itself. The US produces guns for its domestic market and that is always going to lead to guns getting into the wrong hands. It doesn't matter how many responsible people there are who legally own guns. If there are NO guns in a society then there is NO gun crime. Whence countries like Japan and Korea where gun crime is next to zero. I'm not bashing Americans here, but it's just an aspect of US society that I struggle to get my head around.

Amat does make a fair point about the loonies that he seems to come across. If I lived in an area full of psychopaths perhaps I would think differently and might want a gun too. But I don't and even in England have rarely seen situations where I thought "I could do with a gun here". Being a tall, scary foreigner is usually enough out here. Nobody has guns and I have never really experienced much violence. I have yelling matches with illegal bongo truck food sellers, but that's about as far as I go.

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Originally Posted by amat

Yeah I'm actually for gun laws as in making sure we try to keep them in the right hands but I badly want to own a gun, almost to the point where I would want to just ask some people if they know where I can get one I'm sure I could. That would lead to trouble but I live alone in an apartment in a nice area but it's 300,000 thousand people here and I live by 2 schools where there are people scheming there every night. It's kind of nerve racking sometimes I've had a crackhead (literally, a complete fucking crackhead) sneak in my house when I was checking my mail after I got home at like 11 at night and try to rummage my dresser. Other times I've had some complete fcking strangers knock on my door hella late at night probably because they smelled weed at like 2 am. I've probably had 3 nerve racking moments in my time living here where I've really wanted a gun and almost felt like I needed one. It would be better to own one I would never support

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.....well I'll be the first to tell you guns and drugs and alcohol don't mix.

But if a crackhead poked his head into my apartment it would be the last thing he ever did.

I usually enjoy a good documentary. I really don't take Moorer serious though. His movies speak to important topics but are regularly slanted with half truths and omissions. He has an agenda and isn't really concerned with providing an objective, well researched and 100% accurate story. One can learn something from his movies but it is really sad how many people take his documentaries as gospel.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

I usually enjoy a good documentary. I really don't take Moorer serious though. His movies speak to important topics but are regularly slanted with half truths and omissions. He has an agenda and isn't really concerned with providing an objective, well researched and 100% accurate story. One can learn something from his movies but it is really sad how many people take his documentaries as gospel.

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Its sad how people take anything as gospel in between the two extremes we have to think within on any subject. (:p especially the Gospel).

i will be watching his new doc

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

I usually enjoy a good documentary. I really don't take Moorer serious though. His movies speak to important topics but are regularly slanted with half truths and omissions. He has an agenda and isn't really concerned with providing an objective, well researched and 100% accurate story. One can learn something from his movies but it is really sad how many people take his documentaries as gospel.

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Exactly this.

Moore is a douche bag, but he's just trying to make a buck the same way FOX, CNN, MSNBC, O'reilly, Olberman all of those douchebags do with entertainment news.

Lyle, keep an eye on Maher, bashing Obama will get more popular as people don't see results, Maher will definately slide to the right just to be controversial.

Oh believe me Lyle, if I had a gun he would have had some explaining to do...a lot. All I had was a knife, my voice and the element of surprise lol. When you live alone especially at times of night like this that same situation replays a lot along with others but that more then others lol. If I had a gun then I'm not so sure the situation would have played out the same way, given the circumstances I wouldn't have shot him. But walking down the hallway to see who the fuck is in your house, yeah that's a time where I wanted to have a gun and ANYTHING restricting that at least in this country is bullshit. I'm ALL FOR safe gun laws. I wouldn't even be opposed to making people seeking gun licenses take tests and prove they are responsible enough to own a weapon. However, you can't try to eliminate guns it's pretty much what this country was founded on. OK I know that's not exactly correct, but in a metaphorical sense.

If you take away guns, believe me all those country houses with no one within 2 miles would be knocked over quick, as would every other place otherwise indefensible without guns. Michael Moore is a fool for attacking guns.

I think you are all being harsh on Moore. I like the guy, he is a mainstream voice for those on the left and his views are nothing more that those of a person who would like to see a screwed up society do better for itself. The US media is saturated with right wing puppets who seem to be brainwashing the US populace, so it's good to see Moore have his say every now and then.

What kind of person wouldn't want a health care system that provides for all sectors of society? What kind of person wouldn't like to see the banks and wall street more tightly regulated? Who wouldn't like a progressive tax system where the rich pay a lot and the poor a lot less? Who wouldn't want to see the US military out of an Afghanistan that has no interest in seeking legitimate democracy? Who really believed in the US (and the UK) going to war with Iraq or that the reasons given were justified in the first place? Who wouldn't want to see major US corporations giving more back to the society that it expects to consume its products...namely in terms of job production and corporate taxes....not solely trying to give shareholder value.

I don't understand the opposition to these kinds of things. Moore could just as well make money directing satirical movies but instead focuses his attention on these pertinent issues and gets the otherwise apathetic masses at least thinking about things. Which is more than can be said for the mainstream news corporations and newspapers, which continue to bombard us with mindless pulp, advertising and business news which has no relevance to most normal people.

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Lyle, keep an eye on Maher, bashing Obama will get more popular as people don't see results, Maher will definately slide to the right just to be controversial.

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...so far he's only slid farther to the left


Miles, Michael Moore is not a decent reliable source for anything other than his own far left skewed vision of America. He is never positive about America...do you think this new movie is going to tell us about any immigrants who came to this country with nothing and built businesses and worked hard and acheived??? NO he's only going to tell us how "capitalism" is ripping us off. Also he's been caught dead to rights editing his "Documentaries" to make them fit HIS reality.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

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Well on religion alone, Maher is an unabashed atheist and he dislikes anything having to do with religion(especially organized religion) and he doesn't want them pushing their religion on everyone else (that's fair enough and on that point I agree) but at the same time he pushes his atheism on everyone. He also calls out Republican talking heads for stoking partisanship and racism but he does the exact same thing, it's just he's a liberal so it's ok when he does it.

Miles, guns are legal in America which is probably why we have more gun violence and your numbers mean NOTHING because they do not relay how LEGAL gun owners handle their weapons as opposed to just some thug who wants to do a drive by.

Despite what anyone may think, we were going to Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11. Both Bill Clinton AND Al Gore escalated their stance on Iraq in the late 1990's and early 2000's. They may not have decided to overthrow Saddam but there was going to be a military action taken against Iraq no matter what.

As for Capitalism, are there more poor people in America or in China, India, and Brazil? I'd say we're pretty fair off.

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Show me one specific instance of Bill Maher being hypocritical.

And Clinton passed legislation that specifically prevented any US military invasion of Iraq. He knew it was coming the next time the GOP won an election, knew it would be a disaster and actually passed legislation preventing the US using military force to change the regime in Iraq.