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Kelly Pavlik scraps title bout with Paul Williams - Boxing - Yahoo! Sports
Paul Williams would make this thing EXTREMELY interesting...
but how boring would a Williams v Dirrell fight be? Williams' reach would impede Dirrell's ability to run, so he would have to hug and hold EVEN more...
But Williams destroying Froch, and just being matched with Kessler and Abraham would be worth a damn PPV.
Allan Green officially is the first alternate. Adding Williams would definately throw a wrench in the gears though and make things interesting. Williams/Dirrell would be 10 times better than Dirrell/Froch, Williams won't stand there and wait for Dirrell to do what he wants him to do he will keep swinging until the bell rings clinching or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit
Yeah, I knew about Green, just didn't want to accept it. Winky, Williams, and Bute are all better options.Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheepAllan Green officially is the first alternate. Adding Williams would definately throw a wrench in the gears though and make things interesting. Williams/Dirrell would be 10 times better than Dirrell/Froch, Williams won't stand there and wait for Dirrell to do what he wants him to do he will keep swinging until the bell rings clinching or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit
I think whomever it is should still have to win a fight to get in before. Not really fair that Green should get a "bye" to the 2nd round. Williams is unproven at 168.
I'd like to see the winner of Bute-Andrade 2 get into the tourney myself. Guarantee us a true Supermiddle World Champion.
Bika I think would be the most interesting.
Calzaghe said Bika hit him harder than anyone else could.
He will come to fight and has a decent chin.
Bute and Andrade are already fighting each other but after that?
This tournament leaves them out in the cold really as these boys will already be tied up, if it stays as it should be.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. He seems to have the frame for it, but that's really getting thrown into the fire at 10lbs heavier than he's ever fought. Plus his big advantage in height and reach would be greatly diminished against these guys that are naturally bigger than the lower weight class fighters he's been in with. Not saying he wouldn't persevere, just like you said, he should really be more of a known quantity at that weight, before being thrown into a tourney like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ever since Green had his intestinal problems and lost to Miranda, I haven't been so enamored with him. Seems like all he does is look at his shoes. Really weird. I think he getting better about that, but still...
That's why I like Williams at this weight--he has a better chance of being forced to box. Williams' boxing skills, not ability to use his height and reach to his advantage, would be put on display. I'm not saying Williams is a bum, I'm just saying he gets by without boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_MykYeah, I was thinking the same thing. He seems to have the frame for it, but that's really getting thrown into the fire at 10lbs heavier than he's ever fought. Plus his big advantage in height and reach would be greatly diminished against these guys that are naturally bigger than the lower weight class fighters he's been in with. Not saying he wouldn't persevere, just like you said, he should really be more of a known quantity at that weight, before being thrown into a tourney like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Ever since Green had his intestinal problems and lost to Miranda, I haven't been so enamored with him. Seems like all he does is look at his shoes. Really weird. I think he getting better about that, but still...
His addition would make this thing ultra competitive.
I would have zero problem with Bika. But add Bute, and the winner is a unified, undisputed champion; add Williams or Winky, and your American audience just got a lot larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Bute should be the first choice.
then Williams, then Winky.
Based on the Kessler v Andrade fight, I don't think Andrade has any place in the tournament.
I agree...cause otherwise the points thing will be skewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
To be fair though, Andrade has improved quite a bit since the first fight. I still think Kessler would handle him, but if he beats Bute, then he deserves to be in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitI would have zero problem with Bika. But add Bute, and the winner is a unified, undisputed champion; add Williams or Winky, and your American audience just got a lot larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Bute should be the first choice.
then Williams, then Winky.
Based on the Kessler v Andrade fight, I don't think Andrade has any place in the tournament.
In that case, I would just think less of Bute, and then would insist Andrade be put in the tournament just so he could be quickly relieved of the belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinTo be fair though, Andrade has improved quite a bit since the first fight. I still think Kessler would handle him, but if he beats Bute, then he deserves to be in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitI would have zero problem with Bika. But add Bute, and the winner is a unified, undisputed champion; add Williams or Winky, and your American audience just got a lot larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Bute should be the first choice.
then Williams, then Winky.
Based on the Kessler v Andrade fight, I don't think Andrade has any place in the tournament.
Andrade, i think, lacks the ability to change--he certainly didn't look any different against Bute. The only persons I would want to see him fight would be AA and Froch, just because somebody would get knocked out. Everybody else would just do some variation of what Kessler did.
Have you seen Andrade's chin? Kessler put everything he had on to it & didn't make a dent. I can't see anybody KOing Andrade, I think he could beat anyone in the tournament apart from Kessler & Abraham, not that he necessarily would. He has gradually improved as well, he boxed very well in his last fight against Tsypko.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitIn that case, I would just think less of Bute, and then would insist Andrade be put in the tournament just so he could be quickly relieved of the belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinTo be fair though, Andrade has improved quite a bit since the first fight. I still think Kessler would handle him, but if he beats Bute, then he deserves to be in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit
Andrade, i think, lacks the ability to change--he certainly didn't look any different against Bute. The only persons I would want to see him fight would be AA and Froch, just because somebody would get knocked out. Everybody else would just do some variation of what Kessler did.
I just don't think Winky is big or powerful enough for this bunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitI would have zero problem with Bika. But add Bute, and the winner is a unified, undisputed champion; add Williams or Winky, and your American audience just got a lot larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Bute should be the first choice.
then Williams, then Winky.
Based on the Kessler v Andrade fight, I don't think Andrade has any place in the tournament.
I'm in favor of the Miranda-Green boxoff. IMO, Miranda would beat Green a second time even if Green brought 100% of his colon into the ring.
At some point his chin is going to crumble and he is going to get stopped. It'll happen in much the same way it happened to Margarito and the way it is going to happen to Froch. He takes way too many clean shots and one day his chin will give way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinHave you seen Andrade's chin? Kessler put everything he had on to it & didn't make a dent. I can't see anybody KOing Andrade, I think he could beat anyone in the tournament apart from Kessler & Abraham, not that he necessarily would. He has gradually improved as well, he boxed very well in his last fight against Tsypko.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitIn that case, I would just think less of Bute, and then would insist Andrade be put in the tournament just so he could be quickly relieved of the belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Andrade, i think, lacks the ability to change--he certainly didn't look any different against Bute. The only persons I would want to see him fight would be AA and Froch, just because somebody would get knocked out. Everybody else would just do some variation of what Kessler did.
As for the tournament, he'd probably beat Dirrell and I'd give him a good chance of beating Froch (what a bloodbath that would be). Abraham would be another interesting one, Andrade could probably take that as well. He'd murder Taylor.
Read: "He boxed very well against a nobody."Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinHave you seen Andrade's chin? Kessler put everything he had on to it & didn't make a dent. I can't see anybody KOing Andrade, I think he could beat anyone in the tournament apart from Kessler & Abraham, not that he necessarily would. He has gradually improved as well, he boxed very well in his last fight against Tsypko.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitIn that case, I would just think less of Bute, and then would insist Andrade be put in the tournament just so he could be quickly relieved of the belt.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
Andrade, i think, lacks the ability to change--he certainly didn't look any different against Bute. The only persons I would want to see him fight would be AA and Froch, just because somebody would get knocked out. Everybody else would just do some variation of what Kessler did.
He does have a great chin, and would compete with Froch for "fighter with worst defense" and "fighter who gets hit the most" awards.
I think he'd probably knockout Froch (Froch has the lesser chin), and get ruined by AA, a la Sugar Shane v. Margarito.
He definitely isn't powerful enough; he doesn't have enough power for 154lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_MykI just don't think Winky is big or powerful enough for this bunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitI would have zero problem with Bika. But add Bute, and the winner is a unified, undisputed champion; add Williams or Winky, and your American audience just got a lot larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
Bute should be the first choice.
then Williams, then Winky.
Based on the Kessler v Andrade fight, I don't think Andrade has any place in the tournament.
But, you have to consider the tournament by it's weakest member: Carl Crotch. Could Winky beat the Crotchinator? My answer is yes.
-Winky wouldn't fade in late rounds
-Winky is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Froch in technical ability
-Winky would stand and fight Froch
-the fight wouldn't be a "hug" fest
Abraham doesn't have the work rate to KO a guy like Andrade, let's not get carried away because he did so against Taylor.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitRead: "He boxed very well against a nobody."Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinHave you seen Andrade's chin? Kessler put everything he had on to it & didn't make a dent. I can't see anybody KOing Andrade, I think he could beat anyone in the tournament apart from Kessler & Abraham, not that he necessarily would. He has gradually improved as well, he boxed very well in his last fight against Tsypko.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit
He does have a great chin, and would compete with Froch for "fighter with worst defense" and "fighter who gets hit the most" awards.
I think he'd probably knockout Froch (Froch has the lesser chin), and get ruined by AA, a la Sugar Shane v. Margarito.
Tsypko is a better fighter than that, prior to that fight he had only debatably lost twice, once a complete robbery in France & the other a very controversial defeat to Jeff Lacy.
I'm by no means saying he's some kind of excellent boxer, but he's exciting to watch, has a great heart & chin & is a really likeable guy. If he beats Bute he deserves to be there ahead of either Williams or Winky Wright who've done nothing at SMW before. We still don't know if Williams can take a good Middleweight punch let alone from guys even bigger.
True, but that wouldn't be his only opponent, and Williams and Bhop showed how he can be beat if you have a reach advantage and keep the right distance. Plus, he mixes it up more than he used to, and against these bigger men/bigger punchers...Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitHe definitely isn't powerful enough; he doesn't have enough power for 154lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_MykI just don't think Winky is big or powerful enough for this bunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit
But, you have to consider the tournament by it's weakest member: Carl Crotch. Could Winky beat the Crotchinator? My answer is yes.
-Winky wouldn't fade in late rounds
-Winky is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Froch in technical ability
-Winky would stand and fight Froch
-the fight wouldn't be a "hug" fest
Green is a very talented boxer but has just seemed to stagnate.Looked like a destroyer vs exposed De leon but not exactly beating down the doors making a statement.Sounds as if his spot is next up so a bit mute.
I'd opt for Andrade If I had my choice.Dont think he's really getting deserved credit for improvements he's mad.Far from the face first give and take guy we came to love vs Kessler.The man was actually coming in behind a jab,throwing straight shots last out...fine tuning things.Head movement for gods sake...:o.Has really found a patience and another gear.Of course it only takes being stunned or one war to draw a guy back into his roots and backseat the skill,should be great rematch with Bute.One where I think he needs to attack much,much more given Butes style.
I wouldn't mind Bika, or the winner of Bute/Andrade II.
I would hate to see Allan Green get in there, because I just can't stand him. :cwm21:
I agree, it would be a dangerous thing for him, and by no means would I have him winning...Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_MykTrue, but that wouldn't be his only opponent, and Williams and Bhop showed how he can be beat if you have a reach advantage and keep the right distance. Plus, he mixes it up more than he used to, and against these bigger men/bigger punchers...Quote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheitHe definitely isn't powerful enough; he doesn't have enough power for 154lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myk_Myk
But, you have to consider the tournament by it's weakest member: Carl Crotch. Could Winky beat the Crotchinator? My answer is yes.
-Winky wouldn't fade in late rounds
-Winky is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Froch in technical ability
-Winky would stand and fight Froch
-the fight wouldn't be a "hug" fest
he's just better than Froch, who is there only by virtue of his belt.
I just don't see it... against Bute he just seemed to eat punch after punch... much like in the Kessler fight. I think his lack of hand speed impedes him from actually boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
saiko bika deserves more than allen green imo
What about Pavlik??? Or am I way off it here?
I think that Andrade could beat Abraham :) but if Bute wins he should be invited into the turnament, I wonder if Bute will accept the challenge if Taylor pulls out :rolleyes:
Well, there is that issue with his hand. Plus, he lost his only fight at SM. Still, if he was healthy, I'd like to see him in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Actually the only fight Pavlik lost was at light heavy, he wan his only fight at super middle;)
Bute would be the most appropriate in terms of what he holds in the 168 weight class
...where he looked like crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
I am thinking more and more that a Pavlik-Froch fight would be pretty even at 168...especially if Kelly has the issues he has been rumored to have.
It would be nice if there was a current middleweight champ who could step up but I think with Abraham already in and Pavlik out with a hand injury all we're left with is Felix Sturm who wouldn't do much in this contest I'm afraid. He's a small middleweight anyway.
If nothing else at least Allan Green hasn't already lost to any of the guys in the tournament. Edison Miranda and Curtis Stevens already have, and other than Andrade and Bute...there isn't much left out there.
Joe Calzaghe??? LOL
Personally I think Froch would be Tailor made for Pavlik. Someone who is going to walk onto his bombs will be KO'd. It's the awkward fighters that are going to cause Pavlik most problems or those like Kessler who could out-tough him!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle...where he looked like crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by ross
I am thinking more and more that a Pavlik-Froch fight would be pretty even at 168...especially if Kelly has the issues he has been rumored to have.
It would be nice if there was a current middleweight champ who could step up but I think with Abraham already in and Pavlik out with a hand injury all we're left with is Felix Sturm who wouldn't do much in this contest I'm afraid. He's a small middleweight anyway.
If nothing else at least Allan Green hasn't already lost to any of the guys in the tournament. Edison Miranda and Curtis Stevens already have, and other than Andrade and Bute...there isn't much left out there.
Joe Calzaghe??? LOL
Say what you want to say about Green, but he is the best option out of the available boxers. What makes him a compelling option is that he is an American who can punch. Ward and Dirrell are talented but are light punchers. Taylor may be past his best boxing days.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Miranda was taken to school by Ward and knocked out by Abraham. There is NO need for him in the tournament. Everyone can agree that Bute clearly deserves it the most, but he has a fight with Andrade in November which eliminates either of them as possibilities.
And on another note, Pavlik would eat Froch for dinner.
Green is by far the most appropriate choice as an alternate.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdonaher1
Firstly he wouldn't getting a 'bye' into the second round, the first 3 rounds are a league format, and Green would come in at a disadvantage having to start on 0 points with only two fights to qualify, rather than the others who had 3.
Secondly he's clearly the best available option to step in at short notice. Bute is going to fight Andrade, the likes of Pavlik and Williams already have their own career paths.
Finally, Green, unlike Bika is an American. If Taylor is unable to continue Showtime will need to bring in another American fighter to keep up the viewing figures. Green is known and has a name stateside, unlike Sakio Bika who is based in Australia. True he was on the Contender, but nobody has watched that since the first season so he won't have made many fans from that.
Miranda would be the best replacement.
I'm with jdonaher1 , the winner of Bute vs. Andrade 2 deserves the most to be in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratSay what you want to say about Green, but he is the best option out of the available boxers. What makes him a compelling option is that he is an American who can punch. Ward and Dirrell are talented but are light punchers. Taylor may be past his best boxing days.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Miranda was taken to school by Ward and knocked out by Abraham. There is NO need for him in the tournament. Everyone can agree that Bute clearly deserves it the most, but he has a fight with Andrade in November which eliminates either of them as possibilities.
And on another note, Pavlik would eat Froch for dinner.
I don't understand why you think Bute and Andrade aren't available, either of them could fight from the second round without any problem, Kessler and Ward fight in November too ...
I quoted your post because I know you would prefer to see Bute in the tournament as well, but if Andrade will win the rematch then that's it, he would deserve more to be there... at least the Americans would have in the competition somebody who can bang.
rjjtszyu, I disagree about Pavlik, I think awkward won't give him trouble, TECHNICIANS give him trouble, Kessler and Abraham would eat Pavlik alive
He's already been beaten by Abraham x2 and Andre Ward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Nobody fancy a Jeff Lacy-Peter Manfredo Jr. rematch box off then? ;D
Miranda brings excitement to the table which is more than Direll does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lylerjjtszyu, I disagree about Pavlik, I think awkward won't give him trouble, TECHNICIANS give him trouble, Kessler and Abraham would eat Pavlik alive
He's already been beaten by Abraham x2 and Andre Ward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
But we're not replacing Dirrell we're replacing Taylor.
Allan Green can box a bit and has solid power...Miranda is one sided and he's well past his best which is sad since he's only 28.
Im pretty sure i read barry mc guigan stating that Bute was the reserve fighter if someone was to pull outQuote:
Originally Posted by hfahrenheit