I realize this is a bit of a fantasy match and the two are slightly different in weight, but Roy jones given a few pounds in his prime vs a prime Mike Tyson, who wins?
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I realize this is a bit of a fantasy match and the two are slightly different in weight, but Roy jones given a few pounds in his prime vs a prime Mike Tyson, who wins?
im sure this thread has been done already...
I think it was after the Ruiz Fight that this fight was actually being talked about. Granted it wasn't a prime tyson but we all still would have watch it.
This fight would just not be fair Roy was 154 at the start of his career Tyson was 210-220. That makes him 60+ lbs naturally heavier. I know Ruiz had the same size advantage but he wasn't Mike Tyson.
I am the biggest Roy Jones fan and p4p I think he is top 5 all time but to think he could live with a prime Tyson would be absurd and I don't really think Tyson was as great as some make him out to be, just too big and powerful for Roy!
I think Roy Jones' flamboyant and further more articulate style would be too intricate for tysons head strong brutal power. Its Roy Jones all the way for me (assuming were talking about a pound for pound match up here)
You can't really say a p4p match though as both fighters were great at using their natural gifts i.e. Tyson used his brute strength and speed for a big guy well, whereas Jones used his freak athleticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalChris
If they had fought after the Ruiz fight then Jones may have had a chance,but a prime Tyson would have got to him eventually in his prime I have no doubt.
A prime Tyson, natural heavier with more natural power would've had RJJ. I don't think you can compare due to the massive weight difference between the two.
In Tysons prime you might have been able to be more accurate and dance round him, but one punch with either hand and you were gone. RJJ wouldn't have stood a chance.
I agree prime tyson would have been too much. Roy may have danced around but he always had a bad habit of staying too close too long believing in his ability. Even Ruiz caught him in that first round and stunned him, had that been a real HW hitter roy would have gone down.
Tyson's not an all time great in terms of career, but he's definitely up there in terms of hand power, agility, and quickness. Couple that with the fact that Tyson is like a shark when he smells blood. He would have known Roy was smaller and this would have given him extra motivation.
Its Ironic that Id pick prime tyson over roy, but I'd take Roy over Ali.
Roy over Ali?? No way. Roy would probably beat him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Ali would get Roy quick IMO. Roy's biggest advantage is speed but although he is not as fast as Roy, Ali was far bigger and had freak speed in hand, feet and reflex and the outcome would be a KO for Ali.
Can't believe I am going against Roy so much but I'm trying to remain sensible. Any of the ATG HW's would be too much for Roy Jones who is basically a blown up MW with freakish power, Speed and skill. But HW's are just too much for even the likes of Roy. I mean look at his fight with Ruiz, yes he was dominant but that wasn't the dominant fighter that destroyed everyone and everything at LHW.
Roys natural size is similar to SRR (who is the only man I think is def better than Roy p4p) and he too would have no chance with any ATG big man!
Well say were talking about a boy at his best 175. I think Roy's style which would have been pretty foreign to Tyson and would give him a lot of trouble. Tyson was used to fighting much heavier slower opponents and I think roy could really frustrate Tyson. I honestly think Roy might could pull a deciscion. I think Tyson was great in his prime, but Roy was a lot slicker boxer, and I think he could stick and move his way to victory. That may be a long shot because if Tyson landed a few flush hooks to Roy's head it would be good night Mr. Jones. This fight could go either way.
Spinks was a good 175 fighter not as good as Roy but you get the point!Quote:
Originally Posted by BigLuke
Agree with LethalChris on this one.
Its not a fair comparison given the size difference. If we arent talking about this in terms of P4P then Jones gets taken out.
Styles make fights, and Ali ate tooo many left hooks, wide and slow left hooks at that. Roy would have a field day not to mention he'd be making Ali miss which would also play against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuRoy over Ali?? No way. Roy would probably beat him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Ali would get Roy quick IMO. Roy's biggest advantage is speed but although he is not as fast as Roy, Ali was far bigger and had freak speed in hand, feet and reflex and the outcome would be a KO for Ali.
Can't believe I am going against Roy so much but I'm trying to remain sensible. Any of the ATG HW's would be too much for Roy Jones who is basically a blown up MW with freakish power, Speed and skill. But HW's are just too much for even the likes of Roy. I mean look at his fight with Ruiz, yes he was dominant but that wasn't the dominant fighter that destroyed everyone and everything at LHW.
Roys natural size is similar to SRR (who is the only man I think is def better than Roy p4p) and he too would have no chance with any ATG big man!
I'm taking Roy over any of the smaller heavies ATG or not. With the exception of Tyson who is probably the quickest heavy in history on foot. Roy would beat them. 190-220 If they fall in that range I'd take Roy. Yeah Ali was quick because he averaged around 205-210 before going to prison.
I think Roy's advantage would be his smarts against the rest of them. Against an aggressive guy like tyson who is quick enough to get into position to throw and had a great chin as well would be too much.
first off Ali never technically went to prison he was out on bail and couldn't leave the country, and wasn't allowed a licenseQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherStyles make fights, and Ali ate tooo many left hooks, wide and slow left hooks at that. Roy would have a field day not to mention he'd be making Ali miss which would also play against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuRoy over Ali?? No way. Roy would probably beat him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Ali would get Roy quick IMO. Roy's biggest advantage is speed but although he is not as fast as Roy, Ali was far bigger and had freak speed in hand, feet and reflex and the outcome would be a KO for Ali.
Can't believe I am going against Roy so much but I'm trying to remain sensible. Any of the ATG HW's would be too much for Roy Jones who is basically a blown up MW with freakish power, Speed and skill. But HW's are just too much for even the likes of Roy. I mean look at his fight with Ruiz, yes he was dominant but that wasn't the dominant fighter that destroyed everyone and everything at LHW.
Roys natural size is similar to SRR (who is the only man I think is def better than Roy p4p) and he too would have no chance with any ATG big man!
I'm taking Roy over any of the smaller heavies ATG or not. With the exception of Tyson who is probably the quickest heavy in history on foot. Roy would beat them. 190-220 If they fall in that range I'd take Roy. Yeah Ali was quick because he averaged around 205-210 before going to prison.
I think Roy's advantage would be his smarts against the rest of them. Against an aggressive guy like tyson who is quick enough to get into position to throw and had a great chin as well would be too much.
given that Ruiz of all people was able to get Jones on the ropes on numerous occasions, and Ruiz isn't a big HW, Ali would have murdered Jones at HW
Tyson. No question. Aside from utilizing his speed Roy liked to cover up and let guys punch themselves out. Anybody who tried that against Tyson would have been making a costly costly mistake. And if he tried to dance all night long Tyson was no slouch in the speed department and would have caught him eventually.
We're talking about prime roy, he wasn't prime against ruiz and he only went to the ropes by choice..not to mention ali wasn't a push and hug guy like ruiz so i dont see how that helps the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesfirst off Ali never technically went to prison he was out on bail and couldn't leave the country, and wasn't allowed a licenseQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherStyles make fights, and Ali ate tooo many left hooks, wide and slow left hooks at that. Roy would have a field day not to mention he'd be making Ali miss which would also play against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
I'm taking Roy over any of the smaller heavies ATG or not. With the exception of Tyson who is probably the quickest heavy in history on foot. Roy would beat them. 190-220 If they fall in that range I'd take Roy. Yeah Ali was quick because he averaged around 205-210 before going to prison.
I think Roy's advantage would be his smarts against the rest of them. Against an aggressive guy like tyson who is quick enough to get into position to throw and had a great chin as well would be too much.
given that Ruiz of all people was able to get Jones on the ropes on numerous occasions, and Ruiz isn't a big HW, Ali would have murdered Jones at HW
Besides you mention ruiz a guy who had one of the worst styles ever, he made eveyr HW he's faced post tua look awkward in trying to handle his style. Roy toyed with ruiz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuYou can't really say a p4p match though as both fighters were great at using their natural gifts i.e. Tyson used his brute strength and speed for a big guy well, whereas Jones used his freak athleticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalChris
If they had fought after the Ruiz fight then Jones may have had a chance,but a prime Tyson would have got to him eventually in his prime I have no doubt.
Being a fantasy match up; Roy tko in 8.
If the two were magically the same weight somewhere in the middle of where they both naturally fought and both prime I would go with Roy because he was supreme in his confidence in his ability to counter and bend in the wind and never get caught cold full force or comming forwards by anyone.
Tyson got his own way alot and used intimidation backed with brute strength and single mindedness to suit his tight wicked style. Roy would not have been fased by any of it pre fight or on the night. Roy would have frustrated Mike (and thats the key).
He'd be already moving and throwing a counter as Mike started any solid move; catching him then creating other angles so Mike would eventually make even more mistakes going for broke and get caught continually and the fight would be stopped for his own good.
Well I remember after Griffin II there was a lot of talk of Roy (IMO in his prime) taking on Buster Douglas. This is when his Dad got back in contact with Roy because he was fearing for his sons safety and no-one knows Roy as well as Snr and obviously he thought that Heavies were too big for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuYou can't really say a p4p match though as both fighters were great at using their natural gifts i.e. Tyson used his brute strength and speed for a big guy well, whereas Jones used his freak athleticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalChris
If they had fought after the Ruiz fight then Jones may have had a chance,but a prime Tyson would have got to him eventually in his prime I have no doubt.
Being a fantasy match up; Roy tko in 8.
If the two were magically the same weight somewhere in the middle of where they both naturally fought and both prime I would go with Roy because he was supreme in his confidence in his ability to counter and bend in the wind and never get caught cold full force or comming forwards by anyone.
Tyson got his own way alot and used intimidation backed with brute strength and single mindedness to suit his tight wicked style. Roy would not have been fased by any of it pre fight or on the night. Roy would have frustrated Mike (and thats the key).
He'd be already moving and throwing a counter as Mike started any solid move; catching him then creating other angles so Mike would eventually make even more mistakes going for broke and get caught continually and the fight would be stopped for his own good.
Well whatever happened when they fought, I believe Tyson was better than Douglas.
If they could as you say magically become the same size then yes Roy would win, For me in his prime Roy was p4p not just the best fighter in the world but the hardest puncher and the fastest in hand and reflex's. But to be honest and this may be me being something of a Roy fanboy if everyone could be made the same size magically Roy would beat anyone in history with "perhaps" the exception of SRR but if I were to put money on that I would go for Roy!
Sorry, But Tyson would have Murdered Jones Jr.Quote:
Originally Posted by levi#1BoxingFan
jones beat the arguebly the worst heavy champ of all time, then he could of fought Lennox Lewis but he was smart he knew ruiz was terrible & he could win title then move back down in weight & dodge the real good heavies. saying that i think RJJ had a small chance of beating tyson after beating ruiz, but both in there prime i believe tyson would of destroyed him. RJJ was one of the p4p fighters of all time in my book but really didnt fight the best opposition which is a shame:(
When the fight was seriously considered after Jones beat Ruiz, Tyson was still half decent and would have blitzed Roy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
agreed! But only for about 2 rounds. Then he would have had to result to trying to bait and catch Roy. Tyson's stamina was non existent by then.
if roy could jab & run & fustrate tyson he would revert to some kind of madness i thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
agreed! But only for about 2 rounds. Then he would have had to result to trying to bait and catch Roy. Tyson's stamina was non existent by then.
Remember the fighter that did beat Tyson at that time were heavier than him and used their weight. Roy would not do that otherwise he would have been decapitated by Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoif roy could jab & run & fustrate tyson he would revert to some kind of madness i thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
agreed! But only for about 2 rounds. Then he would have had to result to trying to bait and catch Roy. Tyson's stamina was non existent by then.
even if he wouldn't get physically tired, by the time Tyson fought Williams, if you lasted more then 4 rounds he would mentally implode at the thought of having to actually put in work, and he'd just mentally break down and want to quit, IMO the Jones that fought Ruiz would have frustrated the Tyson that lost to Williams and would have made him quit due to that frustrationQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterRemember the fighter that did beat Tyson at that time were heavier than him and used their weight. Roy would not do that otherwise he would have been decapitated by Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoif roy could jab & run & fustrate tyson he would revert to some kind of madness i thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
yeah well put! the tyson in his prime would of killed RJ thoQuote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleseven if he wouldn't get physically tired, by the time Tyson fought Williams, if you lasted more then 4 rounds he would mentally implode at the thought of having to actually put in work, and he'd just mentally break down and want to quit, IMO the Jones that fought Ruiz would have frustrated the Tyson that lost to Williams and would have made him quit due to that frustrationQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterRemember the fighter that did beat Tyson at that time were heavier than him and used their weight. Roy would not do that otherwise he would have been decapitated by Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
I don't think its out of the question, that RJJ could of beat Muhammad Ali. Doug Jones gave Muhammad Ali all he could handle, he was only 188 pounds, Henry Cooper dropped him like a sack he was only 185 pounds, and Sonny Banks also dropped Muhammad Ali he was only 191 pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuRoy over Ali?? No way. Roy would probably beat him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Ali would get Roy quick IMO. Roy's biggest advantage is speed but although he is not as fast as Roy, Ali was far bigger and had freak speed in hand, feet and reflex and the outcome would be a KO for Ali.
Can't believe I am going against Roy so much but I'm trying to remain sensible. Any of the ATG HW's would be too much for Roy Jones who is basically a blown up MW with freakish power, Speed and skill. But HW's are just too much for even the likes of Roy. I mean look at his fight with Ruiz, yes he was dominant but that wasn't the dominant fighter that destroyed everyone and everything at LHW.
Roys natural size is similar to SRR (who is the only man I think is def better than Roy p4p) and he too would have no chance with any ATG big man!
If were talking about the early Muhammad Ali of the 60s, who wasn't much over 200 pounds, and RJJ was say 190 pounds or so. He could very well give Muhammad Ali fits with his speed and athletic ability.
I don't think he would personally win, but i think he would stylistically. Give Muhammad Ali a tough time, the only thing that worries me is RJJ's chin. But he did take some flush Heavyweight punches off John Ruiz, who was 220+.
And despite what you say about John Ruiz, he still knocked Evander Holyfield down heavily. And had him on queer street, and i personally think John Ruiz beat Evander Holyfield 2-1, and remember this was the same Evander Holyfield fresh off his two fights with Lennox Lewis.
the problem is ali fought all the best opponents, RJJ didnt. if they had of fought i would put alot of money on ali to win
Yea and i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 9 or 10 losses, on his record but thats a debate for another day. I just think people overrate Muhammad Ali a bit too much, i don't think its crazy to think a 190 pound RJJ, who still keeps his attributes, could trouble the Muhammad Ali who was just over 200 pounds, and was hurt and troubled by fighters who would be technically Cruiserweights today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
good point ali did have a few gifts but he at least fought everyone, its a real sahme RJJ didnt fight collins, eubank & benn he would of probably beat them all but a real shame he didnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYea and i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 10 losses, on his record but thats a debate for another day. I just think people overrate Muhammad Ali a bit too much, i don't think its crazy to think a 190 pound RJJ, who still keeps his attributes, could trouble the Muhammad Ali who was just over 200 pounds, and was hurt and troubled by fighters who would be technically Cruiserweights today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
Oh yea for certain you can't argue that Muhammad Ali, fought the best. And i respect him for that, but im just not a fan of his. And just because he's regarded by fans as one of the greatest. I don't have to have the same opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragogood point ali did have a few gifts but he at least fought everyone, its a real sahme RJJ didnt fight collins, eubank & benn he would of probably beat them all but a real shame he didnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBYea and i think Muhammad Ali should have atleast 10 losses, on his record but thats a debate for another day. I just think people overrate Muhammad Ali a bit too much, i don't think its crazy to think a 190 pound RJJ, who still keeps his attributes, could trouble the Muhammad Ali who was just over 200 pounds, and was hurt and troubled by fighters who would be technically Cruiserweights today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
And i don't agree that just because of who he is, that we should just sweep his controversial decisions under the carpet. I truly believe he lost twice to Ken Norton the 1st fight and the 3rd fight, and the 2nd fight Muhammad Ali may of edged out by 1 point. But it still easily could of been a draw.
I also think he lost to Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers. His fight with Doug Jones was probably a draw, and this was Muhammad Ali not that far from his peak.
And lets also not forget the controversy surronding the Henry Cooper fight, i believe smelling salts wern't allowed in the UK at that time. And he should of maybe have been technically DQ although don't quote me on that. Because im not sure of that fact.
And also there was plenty of other fighters, he should of handily beaten. That he struggled with, theres no doubt Muhammad Ali was a great fighter.
But i do believe he is very beatable, and as i've always said if he would of lost some of those controversial decisions, especially the ones against Jimmy Young, Ken Norton. Which i would probably say more people think he lost these fights than won, would he still been seen in the same light ?
would he still been seen in the same light ? u ask ICB & i think the answer is definately no my friend your making a very good argument here
on the other hand
could you see RJ beating foreman, frazier & sonny liston?
i could see ali beating all of RJ's opposition easily
To be honest I think Ali won the 2nd and 3rd with Norton although they were close. The 1st was something of a moral victory going the distance with the broken jaw too. Secondly I think he peaked twice but in different ways I think he was really good just before his ban (or whatever you want to call it). Then when he came back he looked rusty as hell and it took him a while to get back and when he did peak again (for me against Foreman) it wasn't natural ability he was relying on as much as his seemingly well developed boxing brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBOh yea for certain you can't argue that Muhammad Ali, fought the best. And i respect him for that, but im just not a fan of his. And just because he's regarded by fans as one of the greatest. I don't have to have the same opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragogood point ali did have a few gifts but he at least fought everyone, its a real sahme RJJ didnt fight collins, eubank & benn he would of probably beat them all but a real shame he didnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And i don't agree that just because of who he is, that we should just sweep his controversial decisions under the carpet. I truly believe he lost twice to Ken Norton the 1st fight and the 3rd fight, and the 2nd fight Muhammad Ali may of edged out by 1 point. But it still easily could of been a draw.
I also think he lost to Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers. His fight with Doug Jones was probably a draw, and this was Muhammad Ali not that far from his peak.
And lets also not forget the controversy surronding the Henry Cooper fight, i believe smelling salts wern't allowed in the UK at that time. And he should of maybe have been technically DQ although don't quote me on that. Because im not sure of that fact.
And also there was plenty of other fighters, he should of handily beaten. That he struggled with, theres no doubt Muhammad Ali was a great fighter.
But i do believe he is very beatable, and as i've always said if he would of lost some of those controversial decisions, especially the ones against Jimmy Young, Ken Norton. Which i would probably say more people think he lost these fights than won, would he still been seen in the same light ?
Another thing is the Cooper story is played up to death with people saying he got this long and that long to recover due to the glove when really I think it was an extra 7 seconds when you time it properly. He was also a long way off either peak in the first Cooper fight and made silly mistakes that reared their ugly heads again in the first Frazier fight before he was back to his best.
I don't think RJ could beat a prime Ali but I respect your argument and if he could then that would back up my claims that he might be the greatest p4p fighter of all time!
RJ cannot be classed as p4p of all time ever, his opposition mainly was terrible!
his greatest victory came against john ruiz i repeat john ruiz
No way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
he caught hopkins to earlyQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuNo way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
toney was weight drained
Single handedlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Dragohe caught hopkins to earlyQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuNo way. 28 year old Hopkins? Prime Toney? them 2 alone were way bigger than the Ruiz fight. The only good thing about Ruiz was Jones is really a middleweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drago
toney was weight drained
Since this topic just turned into a comparison of ALi and Jones and mythical match ups between the 2. There is no comparison in my opinion. ALi fought everyone that was good or great in his era at any place. Can Roy Jones say that? Of course not, that's why from time to time on boxing forums there are Roy Jones VS. Nigel Benn, Chris Eubanks, Gerald McClellan threads or the if Roy was in his prime against a prime Joe Calzaghe who would win?
Ali fought any good/great HW in his era. There aren't any of those hypothetical questions with how he would fare with Foreman, Shavers, Norton, Frazier, Liston, etc. And here's another thing, even when he was a young champion he still fought contenders in their own hometown/country like the English fighters such as Brian London, Henry Cooper, etc.
What I dont understand is how can one say why one era is better? What because the fights were closer or more competitive? Roy jones dominated guys that were champs period. He dominated guys that went on to hold belts.
Call me the saddoheretic but whatever, Ali ate too many left hooks, Roy Jones would massacre his ass. His own daughter even admitted that her father ate too many left hooks.
All that crap about they were great because that had tough fights against each other counts for them but counts against roy because he blew everyone out. Move him back to the eighties and there isnt a single fighter below HW that would even come close to beating him. That's why he constantly being pitted in these hypothetical match-ups against TRUE HEAVYWEIGHTS when he started at 154. That's a self admission that he'd beat anyone that wasn't a HW.
I've never seen one thread about Ray Robinson vs mike tyson or Ray robinson vs Ali...
ROY JONES BEST THAT EVER LACED 'EM UP.