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The way people talk you would think that PBF fought little guys his whole career. I mean how can a guy who started at 130 and has fought as high as 154 have fought smaller guys his whole career. OK so PBF had one fight above 147 and then came back down. Nobody knocks Roy for fighting at 168 a weight that he hadn't fought at in over 10 years. Nobody knocked oscar for fighting the smaller PBF. Somebody break it down for me without being bias.
For me its not really the case of fighting smaller men, its the fact he has been coasting against safe opponents since his scare with Castillo.
Instead of fighting Dorin or Spadafora he chose Sosa & Ndou
Instead of fighting Tszyu, Cotto or Hatton he chose Corley, Bruseles & Gatti
Instead of fighting Margarito, Mosley or Cintron he chose Mitchell, Judah & Baldomir
Then he took the money fights: DLH & Hatton, nothing wrong with that. But then instead of defending his championship against Cotto or Margarito he chose to retire.
Only to comeback against a lightweight, when guys like Cotto & Mosley reigned in the division.
He took the path of least resistance
If he fights the Pacquioa/ Cotto winner & then the Mosley/ Berto winner all can be forgiven. If he doesn't his legacy will always be questioned!
I do agree with you that PBF has taken the path of least resistance. And it is preposterous to say PBF fights smaller guys when he was normally the smaller guy in a lot of his fights. But in all fairness PBF's path of least resistance is really only in welterweight. And all the fights that weren't made can not be blamed totally on PBF. Thats one sided. PBF and Tsyzu was only possibly going to get made because PBF contacted Tsyzu about it before the Hatton fight. Hatton ruined that possible fight. Cotto never pushed for a PBF fight and PBF wanted to set the fight up after fighting Cotto's stablemate, Bruseles. PBF cleaned out 130, beat the king of the 135's and the top two 140's. Even though Judah and Hatton fought PBF at 147 it would be just a flimsy excuse to say PBF was too big or had an unfair advantage at 147 instead of 140. Would the fights really have been different when PBF is the naturally smaller guy? Dorin, Spadafora, and Cintron are lesser fighters than many of the fighters PBF demolished. He can't fight them all No fighter fights everybody at every weight class. And his comeback fight against JMM is his first in 2 years. I'd rather have that tune up than a 147 pound Joe Blow. I am not liking PBF's selection at 147 in totality. If PBF doesn't fight Cotto or Mosley then he deserves to be ridiculed for his welterweight run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
Cintron?
I remember when Margarito had that $8 million offer on the table and Floyd had an open date for November and boxrec posted that Floyd was fighting Cintron instead of Margarito. Anyone remember that day/week? This place went crazy. ;D
You can't argue with any of that. Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
Doesn't end up mattering who's to blame for opponent choice.. Floyd's fight record is the only thing in the end that reflects the opposition he's beaten, and the opposition he didn't fight...Quote:
Originally Posted by blegitI do agree with you that PBF has taken the path of least resistance. And it is preposterous to say PBF fights smaller guys when he was normally the smaller guy in a lot of his fights. But in all fairness PBF's path of least resistance is really only in welterweight. And all the fights that weren't made can not be blamed totally on PBF. Thats one sided. PBF and Tsyzu was only possibly going to get made because PBF contacted Tsyzu about it before the Hatton fight. Hatton ruined that possible fight. Cotto never pushed for a PBF fight and PBF wanted to set the fight up after fighting Cotto's stablemate, Bruseles. PBF cleaned out 130, beat the king of the 135's and the top two 140's. Even though Judah and Hatton fought PBF at 147 it would be just a flimsy excuse to say PBF was too big or had an unfair advantage at 147 instead of 140. Would the fights really have been different when PBF is the naturally smaller guy? Dorin, Spadafora, and Cintron are lesser fighters than many of the fighter PBF demolished. He can't fight them all No fighter fights everybody at every weight class. And his comeback fight against JMM is his first in 2 years. I'd rather have that tune up than a 147 pound Joe Blow. I am not liking PBF's selection at 147 in totality. If PBF doesn't fight Cotto or Mosley then he deserves to be ridiculed for his welterweight run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
He's fought for money and has been a completely success in that respect... If he's fighting for legacy and A.T.G status then he can do more... There are fighters with less talent out there that are more determined to carve out a legacy...
Not that I don't think money is an honourable guiding principle of a boxing career, but it's the contrast between that and the mexican foreign fighters why I love those guys so much.. Guys that in post fight interviews say "I'm just glad to be fighting, i'll fight whoever is in front of me, and the rest is up to my promotion and management..." When the fighters are wrapped up in the politics, that is what puts a stain on boxing I feel... Boxers should have their head down and focused on fights with whoever gets put in front of them... That's the spirit that built boxing, and that is the spirit that will make it live on...
The more politics that gets between fights and prevents the logical, wanted fights from happening, the weaker boxing becomes...
I know it's a bit off topic, but what can be taken from that is Floyd is his own undoing when it comes to his critics... There is just a gap between what critics want from a true all time great, and what Floyd wants out of boxing... So there is always going to be drama right in the middle of that.
Good post but I'll just say, a lot of this stuff borders on nitpicking.Quote:
Originally Posted by DizasterDoesn't end up mattering who's to blame for opponent choice.. Floyd's fight record is the only thing in the end that reflects the opposition he's beaten, and the opposition he didn't fight...Quote:
Originally Posted by blegitI do agree with you that PBF has taken the path of least resistance. And it is preposterous to say PBF fights smaller guys when he was normally the smaller guy in a lot of his fights. But in all fairness PBF's path of least resistance is really only in welterweight. And all the fights that weren't made can not be blamed totally on PBF. Thats one sided. PBF and Tsyzu was only possibly going to get made because PBF contacted Tsyzu about it before the Hatton fight. Hatton ruined that possible fight. Cotto never pushed for a PBF fight and PBF wanted to set the fight up after fighting Cotto's stablemate, Bruseles. PBF cleaned out 130, beat the king of the 135's and the top two 140's. Even though Judah and Hatton fought PBF at 147 it would be just a flimsy excuse to say PBF was too big or had an unfair advantage at 147 instead of 140. Would the fights really have been different when PBF is the naturally smaller guy? Dorin, Spadafora, and Cintron are lesser fighters than many of the fighter PBF demolished. He can't fight them all No fighter fights everybody at every weight class. And his comeback fight against JMM is his first in 2 years. I'd rather have that tune up than a 147 pound Joe Blow. I am not liking PBF's selection at 147 in totality. If PBF doesn't fight Cotto or Mosley then he deserves to be ridiculed for his welterweight run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
He's fought for money and has been a completely success in that respect... If he's fighting for legacy and A.T.G status then he can do more... There are fighters with less talent out there that are more determined to carve out a legacy...
Not that I don't think money is an honourable guiding principle of a boxing career, but it's the contrast between that and the mexican foreign fighters why I love those guys so much.. Guys that in post fight interviews say "I'm just glad to be fighting, i'll fight whoever is in front of me, and the rest is up to my promotion and management..." When the fighters are wrapped up in the politics, that is what puts a stain on boxing I feel... Boxers should have their head down and focused on fights with whoever gets put in front of them... That's the spirit that built boxing, and that is the spirit that will make it live on...
The more politics that gets between fights and prevents the logical, wanted fights from happening, the weaker boxing becomes...
I know it's a bit off topic, but what can be taken from that is Floyd is his own undoing when it comes to his critics... There is just a gap between what critics want from a true all time great, and what Floyd wants out of boxing... So there is always going to be drama right in the middle of that.
I mean really, you would have rather seen him in with Dorin then Ndou? Neither Dorin nor Spadafora had their shit sorted at the time, Dorin missed weight by like 5 pounds and retired right after he fought Spadafora. Spadafora....I don't need to explain. Ndou was a very tough opponent and notice how Floyd ramps his game up on this inside after the Castillo fights. It was a very entertaining fight, Mayweather-Ndou. That's really nitpicking.
Give him some time guys, he had every right to retire. There is a reason boxers retire so much, it's hard. Everyone is allowed a break. So he says he's the greatest, yeah he's trying to sell fights. It's not that hard to figure out. He doesn't have a country behind him like Pacquiao so he has to be brash. Of course we are allowed to hold this against him but it doesn't mean his opposition has been terrible. I mean even without fighting all those guys that's a pretty good resume.
I was IN FAVOR all along for him staying the course and fighting Zab Judah even though Judah lost to Carlos Baldomir. That was a mega-fight derailed, lost a lot of it's luster. Still, it was a big fight. As was Cotto-Judah and as was Clottey-Judah. All those bouts shouldn't be discredited.
Then, of course he fights Baldomir. Antonio Margarito had done NOTHING except cry about how he was avoided. Seriously, Margarito would have been seriously outboxed, comprehensively and then all of you would have been moaning about why he avoided Baldomir. Baldomir was the lineal champ and he eventually signed for MORE MONEY to fight Baldomir. Of course he was outclassed, a formality but it was a fight he HAD to take. I was also in favor of Baldomir over Margarito from very early on. What I was worried about was what if Gatti beat Baldomir (I predicted it) and then became the lineal (and maybe Ring?) champ at 147. Oh man, imagine a PBF-Gatti rematch? :o So that was the ONLY scenario in which I was in favor of Margarito getting a shot at Floyd.
I'm not saying Floyd is the only one to blame for all those fights not getting made, but to have not 1 of the 8 guys I mentioned is pushing the envelope a little to farQuote:
Originally Posted by blegitI do agree with you that PBF has taken the path of least resistance. And it is preposterous to say PBF fights smaller guys when he was normally the smaller guy in a lot of his fights. But in all fairness PBF's path of least resistance is really only in welterweight. And all the fights that weren't made can not be blamed totally on PBF. Thats one sided. PBF and Tsyzu was only possibly going to get made because PBF contacted Tsyzu about it before the Hatton fight. Hatton ruined that possible fight. Cotto never pushed for a PBF fight and PBF wanted to set the fight up after fighting Cotto's stablemate, Bruseles. PBF cleaned out 130, beat the king of the 135's and the top two 140's. Even though Judah and Hatton fought PBF at 147 it would be just a flimsy excuse to say PBF was too big or had an unfair advantage at 147 instead of 140. Would the fights really have been different when PBF is the naturally smaller guy? Dorin, Spadafora, and Cintron are lesser fighters than many of the fighters PBF demolished. He can't fight them all No fighter fights everybody at every weight class. And his comeback fight against JMM is his first in 2 years. I'd rather have that tune up than a 147 pound Joe Blow. I am not liking PBF's selection at 147 in totality. If PBF doesn't fight Cotto or Mosley then he deserves to be ridiculed for his welterweight run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
After facing Castillo twice, which I give him credit for; it turned to custard. Instead of fighting rated guys like Johnston, Spadafora & Dorin who were all in the top 5 at the time Floyd presided, he took on the unrated Sosa & Ndou who moved up from 130
He did face 2 rated fighters at 140 in Corley & Gatti, but Corley had already been defeated by Judah & Gatti wasn't even in the same league, although being on a strong run was mainly a marketing ploy. The challenges in the division at the time were Tszyu, Mitchell, Harris & Hatton... Cotto could be also be mentioned as he was around 25-0 at the time. The thing for me here is he was the champ moving up & should have done everything possible to get Tszyu!
147 is just a joke, he fought Mitchell who had been crushed by Tszyu, Judah who had come apart vs Baldomir (just to pick up a lousy trinket which Baldomir should have earned anyway). I respect him for fighting Baldomir because he was the champ, but why waste time on Judah? And did anyone give the gutsy Argentine a chance? Then instead of facing Margarito or Cotto who had by then moved up, he chose to take the money fights with DLH & Hatton. I give him credit for facing those guys cause Hatton was the 140 champ & he fought DLH at 154. But then failed to give the fans the fights they wanted to see with Cotto or Margarito.
He then retires & comes back against Marquez, no what was wrong with Mosley, Cotto, Clottey or Berto. Sure he'd been out a while... so what Leonard was out for almost 3 years & come back to fight the middleweight champ of the world in Hagler & that was Leonards 1st fight at the weight.
Floyd has great skills but his legacy is seriously flawed!!!
Good posting Amat, I am actually even considering sending some rep your way for it. I won't of course, but I did consider considering it at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatGood post but I'll just say, a lot of this stuff borders on nitpicking.Quote:
Originally Posted by DizasterDoesn't end up mattering who's to blame for opponent choice.. Floyd's fight record is the only thing in the end that reflects the opposition he's beaten, and the opposition he didn't fight...Quote:
Originally Posted by blegit
He's fought for money and has been a completely success in that respect... If he's fighting for legacy and A.T.G status then he can do more... There are fighters with less talent out there that are more determined to carve out a legacy...
Not that I don't think money is an honourable guiding principle of a boxing career, but it's the contrast between that and the mexican foreign fighters why I love those guys so much.. Guys that in post fight interviews say "I'm just glad to be fighting, i'll fight whoever is in front of me, and the rest is up to my promotion and management..." When the fighters are wrapped up in the politics, that is what puts a stain on boxing I feel... Boxers should have their head down and focused on fights with whoever gets put in front of them... That's the spirit that built boxing, and that is the spirit that will make it live on...
The more politics that gets between fights and prevents the logical, wanted fights from happening, the weaker boxing becomes...
I know it's a bit off topic, but what can be taken from that is Floyd is his own undoing when it comes to his critics... There is just a gap between what critics want from a true all time great, and what Floyd wants out of boxing... So there is always going to be drama right in the middle of that.
I mean really, you would have rather seen him in with Dorin then Ndou? Neither Dorin nor Spadafora had their shit sorted at the time, Dorin missed weight by like 5 pounds and retired right after he fought Spadafora. Spadafora....I don't need to explain. Ndou was a very tough opponent and notice how Floyd ramps his game up on this inside after the Castillo fights. It was a very entertaining fight, Mayweather-Ndou. That's really nitpicking.
Give him some time guys, he had every right to retire. There is a reason boxers retire so much, it's hard. Everyone is allowed a break. So he says he's the greatest, yeah he's trying to sell fights. It's not that hard to figure out. He doesn't have a country behind him like Pacquiao so he has to be brash. Of course we are allowed to hold this against him but it doesn't mean his opposition has been terrible. I mean even without fighting all those guys that's a pretty good resume.
I was IN FAVOR all along for him staying the course and fighting Zab Judah even though Judah lost to Carlos Baldomir. That was a mega-fight derailed, lost a lot of it's luster. Still, it was a big fight. As was Cotto-Judah and as was Clottey-Judah. All those bouts shouldn't be discredited.
Then, of course he fights Baldomir. Antonio Margarito had done NOTHING except cry about how he was avoided. Seriously, Margarito would have been seriously outboxed, comprehensively and then all of you would have been moaning about why he avoided Baldomir. Baldomir was the lineal champ and he eventually signed for MORE MONEY to fight Baldomir. Of course he was outclassed, a formality but it was a fight he HAD to take. I was also in favor of Baldomir over Margarito from very early on. What I was worried about was what if Gatti beat Baldomir (I predicted it) and then became the lineal (and maybe Ring?) champ at 147. Oh man, imagine a PBF-Gatti rematch? :o So that was the ONLY scenario in which I was in favor of Margarito getting a shot at Floyd.
I didn't really agree with the 'least resistance' thread much either.
First he claimed Floyd had been following this path of least resistance since his close call with Castillo. Well if my memory serves me correctly, immediately after almost losing to Castillo, Floyd fought Castillo again, to prove he could beat convincingly and he did, that's hardly the path of least resistance, especially considering the likes of Calzaghe and Hatton never offered rematches when they won dubious decisions.
The criticism for not fighting Hatton whilst they were at junior welter is a bit ridiculous seeing as he fought Hatton later, when Hatton was still undefeated and also a double weight world champ.
Don't guys realise that the serious challengers, those likely to be the guys the public demand, need time to develop and prove themselves as marquee names so that when the fight does happen it happens for more money?
Fighting Cotto a few years ago wouldn't mean nearly as much in terms of cash and interest than if he fights him after the Manny fight, presuming Cotto wins. Likewise for Manny. Sugar Shane is a far bigger proposition now than he was a couple years ago as well.
Floyd just knows the right time to fight the big fights to maximise the size of the event and his earnings appeal. It's purely good management and a sound business plan.
What he is is smart, not a coward choosing the path of least resistance.
His last 3 fights have been Oscar, Hatton and J M Marquez, all three most likely future Hall of Famers, and his next fight will likely be against the winner of Cotto Pacquaio.
That's a pretty good resume for the path of least resistance.
In essence I agree with you that PBF's legacy is flawed. So I am not really arguing against your main point. I am just saying that we are being too harsh on PBF by ,what one poster said, nitpicking. PBF's only measly run is at welterweight. Dorin, Spadafora, Cintron are guys who have absolutely no one on their record as a victim. Dorin's best fight is a draw against Spadafora, his best win is against Emanual Agustus. Gatti KO'd and retired Dorin in less than 2 rounds. Dorin/PBF would have been manslaughter. Spadafora, went to prison, but his best win is a decision against Angel Manfredy. Cintron's best accomplishment is robbery draw against Martinez at 154. Beating Cintron would not validate PBF's stay at 147. He needs Mosley, Cotto, or Williams. After Hatton KO'd Tsyzu who would've gave PBF credit for fighting him? PBF KO'd Hatton. PBF called out Mosley before he moved out of lightweight but no one slanders Mosley for pricing himself out of that fight. No one blames Mosley for that fight not getting made when, money aside, it matter most. Mosley went the money route the way PBF does now. Of the eight guys you name PBF did KO Hatton who KO'd Tsyzu. Dorin, Spadafora, and Cintron are names that aren't relevant and would do nothing more for his legacy than what he already has. The only ones of credit are Margarito, Mosley, and Cotto. And I'll even add Williams. That is the real welterweight division. That is where PBF's legacy gets murky but lets see how 2010 plays out before we talk too much against it like he is retired and can not add to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyI'm not saying Floyd is the only one to blame for all those fights not getting made, but to have not 1 of the 8 guys I mentioned is pushing the envelope a little to farQuote:
Originally Posted by blegitI do agree with you that PBF has taken the path of least resistance. And it is preposterous to say PBF fights smaller guys when he was normally the smaller guy in a lot of his fights. But in all fairness PBF's path of least resistance is really only in welterweight. And all the fights that weren't made can not be blamed totally on PBF. Thats one sided. PBF and Tsyzu was only possibly going to get made because PBF contacted Tsyzu about it before the Hatton fight. Hatton ruined that possible fight. Cotto never pushed for a PBF fight and PBF wanted to set the fight up after fighting Cotto's stablemate, Bruseles. PBF cleaned out 130, beat the king of the 135's and the top two 140's. Even though Judah and Hatton fought PBF at 147 it would be just a flimsy excuse to say PBF was too big or had an unfair advantage at 147 instead of 140. Would the fights really have been different when PBF is the naturally smaller guy? Dorin, Spadafora, and Cintron are lesser fighters than many of the fighters PBF demolished. He can't fight them all No fighter fights everybody at every weight class. And his comeback fight against JMM is his first in 2 years. I'd rather have that tune up than a 147 pound Joe Blow. I am not liking PBF's selection at 147 in totality. If PBF doesn't fight Cotto or Mosley then he deserves to be ridiculed for his welterweight run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
After facing Castillo twice, which I give him credit for; it turned to custard. Instead of fighting rated guys like Johnston, Spadafora & Dorin who were all in the top 5 at the time Floyd presided, he took on the unrated Sosa & Ndou who moved up from 130
He did face 2 rated fighters at 140 in Corley & Gatti, but Corley had already been defeated by Judah & Gatti wasn't even in the same league, although being on a strong run was mainly a marketing ploy. The challenges in the division at the time were Tszyu, Mitchell, Harris & Hatton... Cotto could be also be mentioned as he was around 25-0 at the time. The thing for me here is he was the champ moving up & should have done everything possible to get Tszyu!
147 is just a joke, he fought Mitchell who had been crushed by Tszyu, Judah who had come apart vs Baldomir (just to pick up a lousy trinket which Baldomir should have earned anyway). I respect him for fighting Baldomir because he was the champ, but why waste time on Judah? And did anyone give the gutsy Argentine a chance? Then instead of facing Margarito or Cotto who had by then moved up, he chose to take the money fights with DLH & Hatton. I give him credit for facing those guys cause Hatton was the 140 champ & he fought DLH at 154. But then failed to give the fans the fights they wanted to see with Cotto or Margarito.
He then retires & comes back against Marquez, no what was wrong with Mosley, Cotto, Clottey or Berto. Sure he'd been out a while... so what Leonard was out for almost 3 years & come back to fight the middleweight champ of the world in Hagler & that was Leonards 1st fight at the weight.
Floyd has great skills but his legacy is seriously flawed!!!
What I should have said was once he got past Castillo, I respect he gave he a return but since then he has played it safeQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboGood posting Amat, I am actually even considering sending some rep your way for it. I won't of course, but I did consider considering it at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by amatGood post but I'll just say, a lot of this stuff borders on nitpicking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizaster
I mean really, you would have rather seen him in with Dorin then Ndou? Neither Dorin nor Spadafora had their shit sorted at the time, Dorin missed weight by like 5 pounds and retired right after he fought Spadafora. Spadafora....I don't need to explain. Ndou was a very tough opponent and notice how Floyd ramps his game up on this inside after the Castillo fights. It was a very entertaining fight, Mayweather-Ndou. That's really nitpicking.
Give him some time guys, he had every right to retire. There is a reason boxers retire so much, it's hard. Everyone is allowed a break. So he says he's the greatest, yeah he's trying to sell fights. It's not that hard to figure out. He doesn't have a country behind him like Pacquiao so he has to be brash. Of course we are allowed to hold this against him but it doesn't mean his opposition has been terrible. I mean even without fighting all those guys that's a pretty good resume.
I was IN FAVOR all along for him staying the course and fighting Zab Judah even though Judah lost to Carlos Baldomir. That was a mega-fight derailed, lost a lot of it's luster. Still, it was a big fight. As was Cotto-Judah and as was Clottey-Judah. All those bouts shouldn't be discredited.
Then, of course he fights Baldomir. Antonio Margarito had done NOTHING except cry about how he was avoided. Seriously, Margarito would have been seriously outboxed, comprehensively and then all of you would have been moaning about why he avoided Baldomir. Baldomir was the lineal champ and he eventually signed for MORE MONEY to fight Baldomir. Of course he was outclassed, a formality but it was a fight he HAD to take. I was also in favor of Baldomir over Margarito from very early on. What I was worried about was what if Gatti beat Baldomir (I predicted it) and then became the lineal (and maybe Ring?) champ at 147. Oh man, imagine a PBF-Gatti rematch? :o So that was the ONLY scenario in which I was in favor of Margarito getting a shot at Floyd.
I didn't really agree with the 'least resistance' thread much either.
First he claimed Floyd had been following this path of least resistance since his close call with Castillo. Well if my memory serves me correctly, immediately after almost losing to Castillo, Floyd fought Castillo again, to prove he could beat convincingly and he did, that's hardly the path of least resistance, especially considering the likes of Calzaghe and Hatton never offered rematches when they won dubious decisions.
The criticism for not fighting Hatton whilst they were at junior welter is a bit ridiculous seeing as he fought Hatton later, when Hatton was still undefeated and also a double weight world champ.
Don't guys realise that the serious challengers, those likely to be the guys the public demand, need time to develop and prove themselves as marquee names so that when the fight does happen it happens for more money?
Fighting Cotto a few years ago wouldn't mean nearly as much in terms of cash and interest than if he fights him after the Manny fight, presuming Cotto wins. Likewise for Manny. Sugar Shane is a far bigger proposition now than he was a couple years ago as well.
Floyd just knows the right time to fight the big fights to maximise the size of the event and his earnings appeal. It's purely good management and a sound business plan.
What he is is smart, not a coward choosing the path of least resistance.
His last 3 fights have been Oscar, Hatton and J M Marquez, all three most likely future Hall of Famers, and his next fight will likely be against the winner of Cotto Pacquaio.
That's a pretty good resume for the path of least resistance.
He fought Hatton at 147 after Collazo showed how vunerable Hatton was. Why didn't he fight him at 140?
I do realize certain fights & fighters need to be built into an extravaganza, but you can't tell me Tszyu wasn't a serious challenge. In fact I don't even see you mentioning the mans name. A lot like Floyd who quietly avoided him too
Fighting Cotto after he defeated Hatton was the fight everyone was calling for, instead Floyd ran to retirement & let actual warriors (Cotto & Margarito) fight each other
When he fought Oscar it was the worlds best fighter against the worlds most popular, anyone who thought Hatton had a chance was delusional & Marquez had to move up 2 weight classes, wheres the challenge?
The facts are:
He didn't defend against a ranked contender at 135 after the Castillo fights
Only Fought Corley & Gatti at 140 while avoiding the chamion Tszyu
Won the championship at 147 but has never faced a worthy welterweight opponent
In reference to the second Castillo fight where Floyd won (Floyd fans make it sound like he destroyed him) the fight was scored a lot closer than the FIRST fight in which Castillo was robbed IMO.
Just thought I'd mention that;D
This is where you're getting too one sidedly harsh on PBF. PBF moved up to 135 and went straight to the man of the division. He fought Castillo 2 of his 4 fights at 135 lbs. After fighting Castillo there is nothing left at 135. How can you argue PBF moving up after beating the man of the division twice? He would just be feasting on lesser fighters for lesser money which he did for 2 fights afterwards. Enough is enough. Who was left at 135 that would have been worth staying around for? So PBF moved up to 140lbs., and PBF was the one calling for a Tsyzu fight, and barely two fights into PBF's 140 tenure Hatton KO's Tszyu. How is that avoidance? Was PBF really suppose to fight Tszyu then? Bottom line is PBF cleaned out 130, he beat the man at 135 twice, and KO'd the ruler of the 140lbers even though it was 147. Please don't tell me you're one of the people who think Hatton would've won at 140. Hatton isn't more vulnerable at 147 because of the weight gain, heck he walks around in the 170s. Hatton is more vulnerable at 147 because the competition is a lot stiffer at 147 then it is at 140. Maybe PBF moved through 135 and 140 divisions too fast for your liking. But Pacquiao's moving up deserves more scrutiny than PBF's as of yet. Now at 147, PBF's run is deservedly in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyWhat I should have said was once he got past Castillo, I respect he gave he a return but since then he has played it safeQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboGood posting Amat, I am actually even considering sending some rep your way for it. I won't of course, but I did consider considering it at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
I didn't really agree with the 'least resistance' thread much either.
First he claimed Floyd had been following this path of least resistance since his close call with Castillo. Well if my memory serves me correctly, immediately after almost losing to Castillo, Floyd fought Castillo again, to prove he could beat convincingly and he did, that's hardly the path of least resistance, especially considering the likes of Calzaghe and Hatton never offered rematches when they won dubious decisions.
The criticism for not fighting Hatton whilst they were at junior welter is a bit ridiculous seeing as he fought Hatton later, when Hatton was still undefeated and also a double weight world champ.
Don't guys realise that the serious challengers, those likely to be the guys the public demand, need time to develop and prove themselves as marquee names so that when the fight does happen it happens for more money?
Fighting Cotto a few years ago wouldn't mean nearly as much in terms of cash and interest than if he fights him after the Manny fight, presuming Cotto wins. Likewise for Manny. Sugar Shane is a far bigger proposition now than he was a couple years ago as well.
Floyd just knows the right time to fight the big fights to maximise the size of the event and his earnings appeal. It's purely good management and a sound business plan.
What he is is smart, not a coward choosing the path of least resistance.
His last 3 fights have been Oscar, Hatton and J M Marquez, all three most likely future Hall of Famers, and his next fight will likely be against the winner of Cotto Pacquaio.
That's a pretty good resume for the path of least resistance.
He fought Hatton at 147 after Collazo showed how vunerable Hatton was. Why didn't he fight him at 140?
I do realize certain fights & fighters need to be built into an extravaganza, but you can't tell me Tszyu wasn't a serious challenge. In fact I don't even see you mentioning the mans name. A lot like Floyd who quietly avoided him too
Fighting Cotto after he defeated Hatton was the fight everyone was calling for, instead Floyd ran to retirement & let actual warriors (Cotto & Margarito) fight each other
When he fought Oscar it was the worlds best fighter against the worlds most popular, anyone who thought Hatton had a chance was delusional & Marquez had to move up 2 weight classes, wheres the challenge?
The facts are:
He didn't defend against a ranked contender at 135 after the Castillo fights
Only Fought Corley & Gatti at 140 while avoiding the chamion Tszyu
Won the championship at 147 but has never faced a worthy welterweight opponent
It can be summed up in one statement: PBF fought many of the best in his weight classes on the way up, but that since 2004 or so, PBF's opposition leaves something to be desired.
There would a gaping hole in his legacy if PBF left the sport today. Cotto has a far better resume at welterweight than PBF does as do Margarito and Shane for that matter.
I am of the opinion that we should see how this plays out before blasting PBF too much. Let's see if he fights Shane, Cotto/PAC, Paul etc., and talk about it then.
Cotto v. Pac is a much bigger fight for either man than Marquez was for Floyd.
There's really no sense in arguing it, its an open shut case. Floyd has always taken the path that makes the most business sense, simple as that. Gatti at 140 was the smartest business choice so he angled for that and ended up not really fighting anybody at 140. Fighting a guy who's the biggest name of the lower divisions for a lot of money versus fighting somebody like Kostya is just easy, he must think were idiots for even debating it. ;D To be fair I don't think Cotto's team was too interested in putting him in with Floyd at the time.
Fighting Sharmba as a testing the waters type thing was ok and Baldomir was the champ, and nobody should ever be criticized for fighting ODLH, that's just silly, there's not a fighter in boxing that would turn that down. But who are these supposed "danger men" that he's fought at 140 or 147? Chop Corley? Gatti? Baldomir? Judah? I love Zab but meh he kind of sucks.
Baldomir instead of Margarito makes business sense, its the easier fight for the same money and a title. Gatti over Tsyzu makes business sense, easier fight, more money. Hatton over any of the elite around 147 makes business sense, more money, easier fight. But at the same time we can't forget the real reason that fight happened was that Hatton called him out. JMM over any of the elite around 147 makes more sense, more money, easier fight, what do you think he's gonna do, fight Clottey to please the boxing forums? LOL.
Although I think maybe not enough attention has been paid (by me included) to the fact that the JMM fight was a comeback fight so maybe he should get more of a pass like I give him for the Sharmba fight as I don't really see a reason to go off on a guy for a testing the waters type fight.
Anyway back to the main subject, there's obviously a pattern. I don't think Floyd's a coward or anything, just a calculating guy who is in it, like most fighters, pretty much solely for the money. I do think he'd fight Pacquaio just because its such a big money fight. He's not going to be able to make the same amount fighting Juan Diaz or somebody like that, it will most likely happen, just too much money on the table.
For me 147 is the only real question about Mayweather.
I have no problem with him testing the waters against Mitchell, fighting Judah and beating the Lineal champ in Baldomir, but after that is where his legacy should have been made. He has a good resume, but it could be phenomenal. The chances are still there however hopefully Cotto wins, because a fight against PAC would be a lose/lose for Floyds legacy (although a win/win on the business side). Mosley would be the next option although Floyd seems to hold a lot of resentment towards him for not getting the fight when he wanted it.
IF in 2010 he beats the winner of PAC/Cotto and Mosley he will make a big move in the right direction.
I don't recall that but this proves that Arum is willing to deal with Floyd. Floyd has been telling us that he could not fight Cotto because Arum was an old man and refused to do business with Floyd. This is just one of MILLIONS of Floyd's excuses to get out of a tough fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Floyd should have just tore the Welter weight division apart and then he could have retired smooth sailing. He did not and yet he is still ranked the # 2 welter weight by Ring Mag ;D
Now that Cotto has been plastered, everyone wants a piece of him.
Mosley had to balls to face Cotto at least when Cotto was hot and on a roll.
Reminds me of a Rugged comment.
Floyd: I beat Judah.
Rugged: After he lost to sorry old Baldomir.
Rugged: What a brave move that was. You really put your balls on the table with that choice.
Ownage.
I don't think I'm being harsh on Mayweather at all. I give him huge credit for taking on the man at 135 Castillo, & even bigger props for facing him again after the closeness of the 1st fight. But instead of defending against Johnston, Spadafora or Dorin all of whom were in the top 5 around the time he fought unrated Sosa & Ndou. Now don't get me wrong I liked the Ndou fight, but the guy was moving up from 130 & wasn't one of the top guys at 130. What was wrong with facing someone like Freitas who was planning to move up or approaching Casamayor? I not saying there was much for him to stay around for at 135 but he should have fought one of the lightweights I mentioned instead of 2 unrated lightweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by blegitThis is where you're getting too one sidedly harsh on PBF. PBF moved up to 135 and went straight to the man of the division. He fought Castillo 2 of his 4 fights at 135 lbs. After fighting Castillo there is nothing left at 135. How can you argue PBF moving up after beating the man of the division twice? He would just be feasting on lesser fighters for lesser money which he did for 2 fights afterwards. Enough is enough. Who was left at 135 that would have been worth staying around for? So PBF moved up to 140lbs., and PBF was the one calling for a Tsyzu fight, and barely two fights into PBF's 140 tenure Hatton KO's Tszyu. How is that avoidance? Was PBF really suppose to fight Tszyu then? Bottom line is PBF cleaned out 130, he beat the man at 135 twice, and KO'd the ruler of the 140lbers even though it was 147. Please don't tell me you're one of the people who think Hatton would've won at 140. Hatton isn't more vulnerable at 147 because of the weight gain, heck he walks around in the 170s. Hatton is more vulnerable at 147 because the competition is a lot stiffer at 147 then it is at 140. Maybe PBF moved through 135 and 140 divisions too fast for your liking. But Pacquiao's moving up deserves more scrutiny than PBF's as of yet. Now at 147, PBF's run is deservedly in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyWhat I should have said was once he got past Castillo, I respect he gave he a return but since then he has played it safeQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
He fought Hatton at 147 after Collazo showed how vunerable Hatton was. Why didn't he fight him at 140?
I do realize certain fights & fighters need to be built into an extravaganza, but you can't tell me Tszyu wasn't a serious challenge. In fact I don't even see you mentioning the mans name. A lot like Floyd who quietly avoided him too
Fighting Cotto after he defeated Hatton was the fight everyone was calling for, instead Floyd ran to retirement & let actual warriors (Cotto & Margarito) fight each other
When he fought Oscar it was the worlds best fighter against the worlds most popular, anyone who thought Hatton had a chance was delusional & Marquez had to move up 2 weight classes, wheres the challenge?
The facts are:
He didn't defend against a ranked contender at 135 after the Castillo fights
Only Fought Corley & Gatti at 140 while avoiding the chamion Tszyu
Won the championship at 147 but has never faced a worthy welterweight opponent
Then moving to 140 he didn't fight Tszyu straight of, then when Hatton defeated Tszyu around the same time Mayweather fought Gatti, instead of fighting Hatton for the championship he chose to move up again & fight Mitchell. I'm not saying Hatton would of one at 140 but at least the fight was more meaningful at that time.
Pacquiao's moving up is a hell of a lot better, he fought Morales in his 1st fight at 130, I didn't like the choice of Diaz but he had fought Morales, Larios, Morales again, Solis, Barrera & Marquez again who were all rated leading up to that fight, so any easy fight could be argued. Then he fought DLH (I think DLH moving that far down was a mistake) & Hatton who was still the champ at 140. Now he's fighting one of the top guys at 147 in Cotto
Doesn't matter who the guy does or doesn't fight anymore....shane damn near breaks his neck to get in the ring and beg for a fight with the same guy who sent him numerous offers in the past. Just a hot min ago pac was the saviour now after marquez.....good grief. On a side note me and the wife met floyd and eller-whatever at the home opener for the kings last night. All that crap he does is a scam to get in our pockets dude was overly nice playing with fans and kids and stuff....even after the punk security tried to move everyone away floyd still waved people over.
Floyd was insane at 130
Beat the man Castillo at 135
But has been a jive-ass-punk since
He may have made some mad money
But homie played himself:vd:
I'm cool with everything you said except for Tszyu and Dorin. Tszyu was injured for what seem like forever and he didn't seem like he wanted to fight anyway. This is Hindsight but Dorin was a little overated. Didn't Gatti stop him with a body shot. He should have fought Spadafora especialy since it was rumor (don't know if it was true) that spadafora gave PBF some problems in sparring but didn't spadafora do time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
I have more comments but i have to catch the train.
I have to take issue with this one. Sharmba Mitchell was Floyd's first fight at 147. I don't think you can fault a guy for taking a 'feel-out' fight. Zab wasn't a lock- if he'd had common sense at all or heart Zab COULD have won and Carlos Baldomir was the champ. If Zab had minded his business there would have been no fight for Floyd to make with Tata.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
Who was Margarito at the time? Sure, he had a belt, but he was calling out Floyd back at 140 because NOBODY knew him, not even Mexican fans. I'll give you Mosley and Cintron, but let's be honest, Kermit has 0 chance at beating PBF. Mosley did and probably still does and we'll see what the new year brings if he beats Berto.
Tszyu was the champ & sure you can say this or that for why the fight didn't happen, the fact he was there at 140 for a year & never fought the champ, when Hatton became champion what did Floyd do? He moved up to take on Mitchell instead...Quote:
Originally Posted by The BoxerI'm cool with everything you said except for Tszyu and Dorin. Tszyu was injured for what seem like forever and he didn't seem like he wanted to fight anyway. This is Hindsight but Dorin was a little overated. Didn't Gatti stop him with a body shot. He should have fought Spadafora especialy since it was rumor (don't know if it was true) that spadafora gave PBF some problems in sparring but didn't spadafora do time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
I have more comments but i have to catch the train.
Sure its easy to say Dorin was over rated now, but at the time him, Johnston & Spadafora were all top 5 & both Dorin & Spadafora were undefeated. Instead of fighting those guys he fought unrated lightweights. Leaving Spadafora & Dorin to fight each other, just like he made Cotto & Margarito do. You can say whatever you want about these fighters now, but the fact is they had the balls to fight each other
Yeah Mitchell was Floyd's 1st fight at 147, the issue for me is he took that fight instead of fighting Hatton who had become champ while Floyd was still there. At 135 his 1st fight was the champ Castillo. So what was wrong with Margarito or Mosley as a 1st fight at 147 for a guy like Floyd who had so much promise? Who was Margarito? Who the hell was Mitchell at 147? Even Cintron who I agree probably had no chance of beating Floyd would have been a better choice than Mitchell.Quote:
Originally Posted by KillfaceI have to take issue with this one. Sharmba Mitchell was Floyd's first fight at 147. I don't think you can fault a guy for taking a 'feel-out' fight. Zab wasn't a lock- if he'd had common sense at all or heart Zab COULD have won and Carlos Baldomir was the champ. If Zab had minded his business there would have been no fight for Floyd to make with Tata.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy
Who was Margarito at the time? Sure, he had a belt, but he was calling out Floyd back at 140 because NOBODY knew him, not even Mexican fans. I'll give you Mosley and Cintron, but let's be honest, Kermit has 0 chance at beating PBF. Mosley did and probably still does and we'll see what the new year brings if he beats Berto.
When Mayweather stepped up to 135 he took the best there was... Castillo. When he went to 140 he didn't get Tszyu or Hatton. At 147 he took the money in a no need fight against Judah instead of Mosley or Margarito & then instead of defending against Cotto or Margarito once he won the championship he took the Money again against DLH & Hatton. Then with no where left to hide he ran into retirement leaving Cotto & Margarito to face off. Then instead of coming back against the best welter Mosley (a move an ATG like Leonard did after 3 years against Hagler) Mayweather fights a lightweight!
I think everyone on here is making excellent points. The problem i'm having is people acting like Hatton was a nobody. When PBF fought Hatton he was undefeated. Before the fight people said PBF was ducking him and that Hatton was to strong and would apply to much presser. Matter fact every since PBF move up to from 135 all we heard about was how a fighter would apply all this presser on PBF and beat him. Anyway people begged for a Hatton fight. PBF fans like myself said all along that Hatton could win. The Haters said PBF was ducking him. Now when PBF KO's Hatton everyone acts like Hatton was nobody.
Why does PBF get no props for beating Hatton when everyone wanted to see that fight. Thats why i say he won't get any props for fighting Shane or PAC even though people are begging for those fights to take place.