I spent five painstaking months coming up with this P4P list. I'm Ouma the Daddy.

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

Calderon above Williams grates me. Who was his 106 lb opponent he won the title from and was he really better than Margarito?

What about his flyweight win over Hugo Cazares? Was he really that much better than Quintana or Phillips?

What about at his win at superflyweight, did it really compare with a win over Winky? No wait....Calderon only put on 3lbs he never went to super flyweight.

And a draw and SD against Rodel Mayol a fighter who was like 25-3, had been knocked out twice and had lost both previous title challenges to such heralded names as Eagle Den Junlephan and Solis and got KO'd in 4 by some guy called Adrian Hernandez, is that really as good as moving up another weight class and dominating a former p4p star in Winky

It seems to me you are actually giving Calderon more credit because a) he is tiny, and b) his punches carry less weight than an anorexic model.

Williams deserves to be above Calderon, who is very lucky to have survived unbeaten in his last two defences against a nobody.

No, Cazares is a better win than Quintana or Phillips, WTF :-\ I'd take it over a win over an old hasn't fought in 8 years Winky and really there's not that much difference between Cazares and Margarito.

We've already discussed this, does it really need to go on? I'm not as impressed as you are simply by moving up in weight end of story. Its about who you beat and sorry I just can't go too crazy about who Paul has beat. Neither really with Calderon but I like his resume better slightly.

LOL were talking about one place. I don't even feel that strongly about it, not nearly as strongly as you feel about discrediting any little fighter. A win over a guy like Mayol isn't a bad win no matter how hard you try to make it, Mayol was beaten in a great fight against a titlist in Eagle Kyowa who was a good fighter and was knocked out by Solis, another titlist and he had Solis hurt in that fight, he's not a bum.

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

No, Cazares is a better win than Quintana or Phillips, WTF :-\ I'd take it over a win over an old hasn't fought in 8 years Winky and really there's not that much difference between Cazares and Margarito.

We've already discussed this, does it really need to go on? I'm not as impressed as you are simply by moving up in weight end of story. Its about who you beat and sorry I just can't go too crazy about who Paul has beat. Neither really with Calderon but I like his resume better slightly.

LOL were talking about one place. I don't even feel that strongly about it, not nearly as strongly as you feel about discrediting any little fighter. A win over a guy like Mayol isn't a bad win no matter how hard you try to make it, Mayol was beaten in a great fight against a titlist in Eagle Kyowa who was a good fighter and was knocked out by Solis, another titlist and he had Solis hurt in that fight, he's not a bum.

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He's still a guy who twice lost in title challenges though. That's like escaping with a draw and then in a forced rematch scraping a SD win over Pauli Mallignaggi, hardly a glowing commendation for a p4p star.

Cazares is no better than Phillips, he just draw with some 11-1 guy. I guess you think he's one of those great 11-1 or 13-3 guys that seem to populate these tiny weight classes often upsetting the champions or coming close like Concepcion against Donaire, and that goat herder who beat Mijares?

It's funny how the higher divisions don't have these 11-1 and 13-3 guys constantly fighting in world title fights though? Some might see it as the main weights having improved competition and and a part timer with a 70 percent win record wouldn't be good enough to even challenge for a world title let alone win one but I guess it could be a sign that everone below 110 lbs is just gifted beyond belief and therefore nobody is an easy fight.....

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

BTW I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

I wouldn't even argue against the talent pool being shallower at those weights for the most part, do you see anybody else under 140 on that list? But there are much better fighters down there than you think which you might find out if you watched them fight every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

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I thought that might send Bilbo off to Boxrec to analyse and then destroy Hasegawa's credentials.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

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1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Manny Pacquiao
3 Juan Manuel Marquez
4 Bernard Hopkins
5 Miguel Cotto
6 Shane Mosley
7 Chad Dawson
8 Paul Williams
9 Celestino Caballero
10 Arthur Abraham

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

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It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

I actually wasn't replying to ICB there about Caballero, just popped into my head and didn't see Ice's post till after I posted. I just don't think he's one of the twenty or so best fighters in the world.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

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Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

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1 Floyd Mayweather Jr
2 Manny Pacquiao
3 Juan Manuel Marquez
4 Bernard Hopkins
5 Miguel Cotto
6 Shane Mosley
7 Chad Dawson
8 Paul Williams
9 Celestino Caballero
10 Arthur Abraham

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I like ICB's list. We can quibble over whether Mosely should be above Cotto, but its generally which side you come down on, Cotto's for beating Mosely on points in a close fight, or Mosely for destroying the guy who destroyed Cotto.

But either way this list is reasonable and makes sense. I don't know a great deal about Cabellero so can't really comment, but the Ring likes him and he's not Nonito Donaire so it's all good.

Best p4p rankings I've seen on here.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Any list that doesn't have Hasegawa in the top 10 is clearly ridiculous.

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I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

---

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

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:lol:

Have you ever seen him fight? Seriously?

The fact that you can develop such righteous indignation about the perceived overrating of fighters YOU'VE NEVER SEEN is absolutely incomprehensible and bizarre but yet still enjoyable.

You take one reasonable point, less fighters means less competition and proceed to fighter A WHO YOU'VE NEVER SEEN would obviously get schooled by fighters B, C, D, and E because there are more fighters at welterweight.

;D I was going to go on but I realized you've just been winding me up. Well done.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I have him probably at like 11.

I'm sure Bilbo hates him.

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

I do admire the sort of sense of authority you have when discussing these fighters that for the most part you've never seen.

---

It's frustrating because what I say is self evidently true.

Do a boxrec look at the mimimum weight and flyweight divisons. Then compare the number of pro fighters at straweight with the number of pro fighters at a real weight like welter.

Hold on I'll do it for you.......

1412 welterweights according to boxrec

278 minimum weight

No I'm no mathematician, but to me the far greater amount of pro's at welterweight would indicate to me the stasticial likelihood of there being many more better fighters at welterweight than minimum weight.

It's simple maths.

The reason you always get these 13-3 guys fighting for world titles is because there is no competition, and the reason the world champs often struggle with them is generally because 'THEY ARE SHIT!!'.

It's like womans boxings. You only need to win 3 straight fights and you're a world champ. It doesn't mean the person you beat to win the title was great, it's just that was they were the only other people competing.

In a p4p matchup Cazares gets destroyed by Phillips, Williams, Winky, Quintana, and even gets schooled by Mallignaggi.

He's not very good, but is a world champ because there are only like 20 people to fight in his weight class.

If you disagree with me, then explain MATHEMATICALLY how it can be possible to have greater competition with less than 20 percent of the competitors?

It's stasticially impossible.

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:lol:

Have you ever seen him fight? Seriously?

The fact that you can develop such righteous indignation about the perceived overrating of fighters YOU'VE NEVER SEEN is absolutely incomprehensible and bizarre but yet still enjoyable.

You take one reasonable point, less fighters means less competition and proceed to fighter A WHO YOU'VE NEVER SEEN would obviously get schooled by fighters B, C, D, and E because there are more fighters at welterweight.

;D I was going to go on but I realized you've just been winding me up. Well done.

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Actually I've seen Cazares fight 3 times. Twice against Calderon, where he looked like Valuev-lite and once against Roberto Vasquez where he looked shit to me too. I guess Vasquez was a world class fighter too right, who just happend to be KO'd by another great in Drian Francisco last time out?

Seriously they are all shit pretty much down there which is why nobody can string more than two or three wins together once they reach the top.

And I'm certain that p4p Cazares would not even get as far as a title shot in any weight class above featherweight, except for maybe havyweight

Baldomir was the Welterweight champion of the world!

David Diaz was a 135 pound world champion!

Junior Witter had a belt, Alex Bunema had a belt, Carl Froch is a world champion, I could go on.

At the risk of continuing this why do you feel Caballero is a more deserving P4P entry than Calderon?

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

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Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

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Caballero was lucky to get the win against Mathebula two fights ago. I didn't see his other recent fight but he's also been very unimpressive at times, there and against Lacierva notably. Calderon's also had more title defenses than Caballero if you want to go down that road but honestly that doesn't do all that much for me.

Partially I didn't think that highly of Molitor so I don't know what to think of Caballero's wins, they're not that great. Then I think Calderon is just better, obviously that's subjective but I think he's clearly better.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Baldomir was the Welterweight champion of the world!

David Diaz was a 135 pound world champion!

Junior Witter had a belt, Alex Bunema had a belt, Carl Froch is a world champion, I could go on.

At the risk of continuing this why do you feel Caballero is a more deserving P4P entry than Calderon?

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I've never questioned Calderons right to be on the list only that he doesnt deserve to be abover Paul Williams on recent performances.

Baldomir, Diaz, Witter and Bunema have indeed held portions of the world tite but beating them wouldn't make anybody p4p (except Martinez in the eyes of Kellerman).

THAT'S the difference. If Baldomir was a 110 lber and he was just a name you'd give Calderon or Cazares big props for beating him whereas a win over him from Floyd or Williams would be met only with criticism for taking the fight in the first place.

The high profile weight classes are much more well known to us so we feel we can discredit any guy's wins.

But when Nonito Donaire or Huge Cazaires line up against some part timer with a 6-3 record and get taken the distance it's because the 6-3 guy was actually world class.

It's fucking retarded.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I don't even have Caballero at borderline BTW. The Ring having him at 8 mystifies me.

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Hasn't he made like 10 title defenses ? i think he is a bit underrated by the fans. And i for certain think he's higher than Nonito Donaire, and Ivan Calderon who has had 3 close unimpressive technical decisions in a row, just not impressive at all lately IMO.

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Caballero was lucky to get the win against Mathebula two fights ago. I didn't see his other recent fight but he's also been very unimpressive at times, there and against Lacierva notably. Calderon's also had more title defenses than Caballero if you want to go down that road but honestly that doesn't do all that much for me.

Partially I didn't think that highly of Molitor so I don't know what to think of Caballero's wins, they're not that great. Then I think Calderon is just better, obviously that's subjective but I think he's clearly better.

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It's entirely subjective. Calderon has a better defence for sure but he has no power, no physical presence and doesn't have any great offensive arsenal at all.

In a p4p matchup faced with a strong, taller fighter like Cabellero would he be able to win with the limited firepower he has?

I really don't know, certainlyl I'm not confident to say he's clearly better, especially seeing as he had to rematch Cazares because some thought he lost that fight ( I didn't).

Cabellero is clearly better than Cazares imo, wins over Ponce De Leon and Molitor prove his class, no draws with 11-1 guys in the last few years.

That's great but I don't have Calderon P4P because of Cazares and I've never called any 6-3 fighter world class. Its a body of work, he has no great wins IMO, but he does have a lot of solid to good ones and there's also some subjectivity here. Anyway I've already said I don't love his resume but then again I'm not sure Williams has any great wins either.

LOL at all of this because you disagree with one guy being 8 and one guy being 9.

Calderon has a place in the bottom half IMO, I don't even feel that strongly about any of the placements after 1 and 2. Do you feel that strongly about Cotto being five and Mosley 6 or vice versa? I don't. The only thing that I felt strongly about from 7-10 was putting Dawson at the top of the list as his resume is clearly the best of those guys.

Well he did get KO'd by an 18-5 guy. ;D

Of course there's some subjectivity. There should be in every list. I think Calderon would beat Caballero (or more so that he's just better in general) but I don't see any point in even discussing that. If you had made up a P4P list and had Paul Williams 8 and Calderon 9 (or fuck even if you had left Calderon off) I wouldn't have cared or said a word. I just disagree with your generalizations about lower weight fighters.

Ok I do agree with your points there. I'm not really sure why I'm arguing as it wasn't even you who claimed Williams wasn't p4p it was somebody else :p

What can I say, it's just I'm a born internet warrior and once set off there is no stopping me, hence the pleas for self bans.

Im going to get some food and change my nappy now, then calm down with some nice transexual porn :lickish:

I thought if anything leaving Izzy and Rafa off would be the point of contention. I literally spent 10 seconds deciding who was 8, 9, and 10. In fact I could easily change my mind and put Paul at 8 (as he's probably reaching his prime now while Calderon is on the downward slope) but I'll never do it now, noooo I couldn't bear giving off any impression that you had changed my mind ;D

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Bilbo Cazares is better than the old Verno Phillips that Williams fought. I'm a bit of a Verno fan but I don't even find that to be an arguable point.

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-Fact.

Wtf Bilbo come on Hugo Cazares was a billion times more of a threat to Calderon then Verno Phillips ever was to Paul Williams. You make that point, state it as fact, then base a bunch of shit off that. It's wrong.

I love Winky but even the Winky win probably didn't mean much. Come on Bilbo this is just sad. There's a reason I don't speak on the lower weights as much, it's harder for me to follow completely so I don't want to make myself out to be an ass talking about fighters who I've only seen in limited action or not at all. I see you don't have that problem.

To be fair I don't know nearly as much about the lighter weights as I use to like three or so years ago when I was a big boxing fan.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

To be fair I don't know nearly as much about the lighter weights as I use to like three or so years ago when I was a big boxing fan.

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It's to fucken hard because there is such an international pool, I've really just been following everything out of Japan and hope they just dominate the lower weights.

I used to watch so much boxing it was absurd. Now meh I'm sure there are a fair amount of people on here that know more about them than I do. One thing I've decided is Galaxy knows everything :o

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I used to watch so much boxing it was absurd. Now meh I'm sure there are a fair amount of people on here that know more about them than I do. One thing I've decided is Galaxy knows everything :o

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I can't watch as much either but I'm with you I used to just waste away watching 3-4 fights a night sometimes. Sleep or watch the Larry Mosley-Golden Johnson fight? That's what it came down to one night at like 2 AM and I just decided I should probably chill on all the boxing.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Its the first one I've made in like half a decade. The first two are interchangeable really and then its a crap shoot. As said in another thread some is based on achievements, some on perceived ability, some on personal bias

1)Manny Pacquaio
2)Floyd Mayweather
3)Juan Manuel Marquez
4)Bernard Hopkins
5)Miguel Cotto
6)Shane Mosley
7)Chad Dawson
8)Ivan Calderon
9)Paul Williams
10)Arthur Abraham

Just missed the cut
Izzy Vazquez
Rafa Marquez-see above, they're both old, not sure what they have left and inactive, both looked bad last time out, if they come back looking good they could both be back in.
Hozumi Hasegawa
Nonito Donaire :cwm13:
Mikkel Kessler
Kelly Pavlik
Fernando Montiel
Vic Darchinyan

and some other guys, tired of mentioning them

LOL no way you're a part of my list

Wlad
Vitali
Froch

It may be bad but its pretty definitive

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Sucks you can't get those 5 minutes back.

And since when is scoring a 3rd round knock out considered looking bad?

You're right VD I thought they looked great, just look at the results! Other fights where fighters looked great, Amir Khan when he stopped Michael Gomez in 5! What a great result that was, TKO5. Or Ricky Hatton when he won almost every round versus Juan Lazcano. Great result there for Rick I don't know how anyone could see any wrong in their performances.

I think Vazquez is definitely finished at the top level now after seeing his last fight. Marquez I don't know about, haven't seen his last fight and don't know if you can judge much from it anyway. I just don't see either of those guys doing much in the future, probably best if they fight each other again then retire.

haha, I don't know, he looked shaky to me. Like I said they can get right back in if they come back and look good.

Fenster fucking with my title :cwm13: Its okay I won't edit it back.

"Ouma the daddy"?

???

Fenster

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Fenster

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Whatever you say.

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Originally Posted by amat

You're right VD I thought they looked great, just look at the results! Other fights where fighters looked great, Amir Khan when he stopped Michael Gomez in 5! What a great result that was, TKO5. Or Ricky Hatton when he won almost every round versus Juan Lazcano. Great result there for Rick I don't know how anyone could see any wrong in their performances.

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You didn't see the fight did you? Marquez showed a little rust. Which is expected. Shook it off. And proceeded to stop his opponent inside 3 rounds. What more you want?