Could Cotto have ever won?

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

It wasn't so much he fought a bad fight, but got exposed for all the things he did wrong. There's a fairly big difference. Manny made mistakes too. Wasn't he supposed to not exchange with Cotto, to fight in and out, to circle? Yet there he was, toe to toe from the start...

No fighter fights perfect, because it is a delicate dance of athleticism, of styles, of wills; of those whose final goal is to physically destroy the person across from you.

Yes Cotto needs a good trainer! every time he used the jab and moved he was effective! he decided instead to be a brawler against Pac who is faster and as it turns out a more effective puncher.

Yes he could had he boxed off the back foot like he had to when hurt from the start he would have out boxed Pacquiao Pac had trouble with Cotto's left jab i don't think it missed. Cotto fought the wrong fight he did all the bull dozing stuff way to early but one thing is for sure how effective he was on the back foot showed how effective Mayweather will be. I was also suprised that when Pac hasn't got a fighter coming to him he becomes less effective. I feel for Cotto but perhaps he can dust himself off and get Pac in a rematch when Mayweather has done with him;);D

Cotto boxed great in the first but when a ferocious fighter like Pac is on the attack he basically forces you into a punch-up.

Cotto must have got a big shock that he was coming off second best so badly.

Pac was simply much better than him. He basically beat Cotto in 5 rounds.

There was a lot of questions for me about Cotto going into this fight: how much did he have left mentally and physically after the Margo fight, would coming in at 145 effect his already questionable stamina, etc. but the biggest question was whether him and his relatively inexperienced trainer be able to implement the right strategy for this fight. I always thought the worst thing he could have done against Pac was to try and impose his "strength" by chasing him or exchanging with him...Cotto simply didn't have the speed or stamina for that kind of fight. To beat Pac you have to counter him by drawing him in...and especially for a fighter like Cotto, it was very important that he try and control the tempo of the fight in the first half so he doesn't gas out. Now, that is easier said than done against a relentless fighter like Manny....but Cotto needed to use that jab constantly and do his best to catch Manny coming in. He did that well for about a round or two. None of this is to take anything away from Manny...he was relentless and showed he could take Cotto's best shot. You just have feel sorry for Cotto with what has happened to him in the last year. Would he have been the same fighter if the Tony fight didn't go down the way it did? maybe. Would that have made a difference against Pac? maybe not.

Manny was that dominant it looked like any success Cotto had was because Manny allowed it.

He would have got taken apart regardless of what he did.

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Originally Posted by hackey

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

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I believe I said something long these lines on another thread.....which got ignored;D

He 'lost' it in round 4 in which he was clearly winning till he went for it big and got dropped hard. Once they both knew he could be hurt it changed the fight greatly. I do wonder how the cards would have looked if Cotto had then gone on the back foot and looked to nick the rounds rather than fight for them. 90% of the board would have called him a chicken whilst the rest of us would have applauded his ability to switch styles.

:cool: Yes, Cotto could have won. But he didn't. And why ? Because Manny Pacquiao has the camp from hell, and a trainer that truly does his job when preparing his fighter for an upcoming fight. Not just in physical training, but in putting together a fight plan. Watching videos hour after hour of the guy his guy is going to fight, looking for flaws, openings, habits, movement, and so forth. Then putting a plan together so his fighter can counter any attack thats mounted against him. It takes years to be a complete fighter, even with natural talent. And it takes years to obtain the knowledge to become a great trainer. Theres no secret here. Cotto is a very good hard punching hard working fighter. But hes not a thinking fighter. Hes a brawler and that will only take you so far. Manny is a very smart, thinking fighter. He can box, Counter punch, or stand toe to toe. And most of all, he listens to his corner and the advice of Freddy Roach.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Cotto boxed great in the first but when a ferocious fighter like Pac is on the attack he basically forces you into a punch-up.

Cotto must have got a big shock that he was coming off second best so badly.

Pac was simply much better than him. He basically beat Cotto in 5 rounds.

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I have to agree with Fenster , lets face facts , PACMAN was just better in every department.
Im sure if Cotto had boxed on the back foot more , then Pacman would have adapted.
This post is kind of silly really , i do not conform to " IF'S AND BUT'S "
Fact , Cotto praised PAC and said he was one of the best fighters of all time , and lets face it Miguel knows more about it than the rest of us put together.

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

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Originally Posted by hackey

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

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I believe I said something long these lines on another thread.....which got ignored;D

He 'lost' it in round 4 in which he was clearly winning till he went for it big and got dropped hard. Once they both knew he could be hurt it changed the fight greatly. I do wonder how the cards would have looked if Cotto had then gone on the back foot and looked to nick the rounds rather than fight for them. 90% of the board would have called him a chicken whilst the rest of us would have applauded his ability to switch styles.

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Did Miguel change his style ? or was he forced to by a superior fighter ?
In my mind Missy i think it was the latter.

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

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Originally Posted by hackey

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

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I believe I said something long these lines on another thread.....which got ignored;D

He 'lost' it in round 4 in which he was clearly winning till he went for it big and got dropped hard. Once they both knew he could be hurt it changed the fight greatly. I do wonder how the cards would have looked if Cotto had then gone on the back foot and looked to nick the rounds rather than fight for them. 90% of the board would have called him a chicken whilst the rest of us would have applauded his ability to switch styles.

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I agree with you completely Missy -That 4th round knockdown was the fight changer. Cotto was cool, composed and dealing with the Pacman until then.

He lost something after that knockdown. Maybe it was fear - I dunno but I was shocked with Manny. I can't take nothing away from him. Truely amazing. I don't think I'll ever bet against Manny again, maybe not even in the Mayweather fight!

On another topic I think Floyd Sr is right about the Pac Man being on "something" but hey that's another arguement for another day ;) Innocent until proven guilty - Right now I think Manny has done amazing things in the boxing world

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

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Originally Posted by hackey

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

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I believe I said something long these lines on another thread.....which got ignored;D

He 'lost' it in round 4 in which he was clearly winning till he went for it big and got dropped hard. Once they both knew he could be hurt it changed the fight greatly. I do wonder how the cards would have looked if Cotto had then gone on the back foot and looked to nick the rounds rather than fight for them. 90% of the board would have called him a chicken whilst the rest of us would have applauded his ability to switch styles.

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I agree with you completely Missy -That 4th round knockdown was the fight changer. Cotto was cool, composed and dealing with the Pacman until then.

He lost something after that knockdown. Maybe it was fear - I dunno but I was shocked with Manny. I can't take nothing away from him. Truely amazing. I don't think I'll ever bet against Manny again, maybe not even in the Mayweather fight!

On another topic I think Floyd Sr is right about the Pac Man being on "something" but hey that's another arguement for another day ;) Innocent until proven guilty - Right now I think Manny has done amazing things in the boxing world

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Since when did anyone take "Predator" seriously anyway , when hes out of the spotlight for the right reasons , he has to try to get into the spotlight for all the wrong reasons , face facts Floyd " PRUNEFACE " Sr, is a bitter old twat.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

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Originally Posted by hackey

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

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I believe I said something long these lines on another thread.....which got ignored;D

He 'lost' it in round 4 in which he was clearly winning till he went for it big and got dropped hard. Once they both knew he could be hurt it changed the fight greatly. I do wonder how the cards would have looked if Cotto had then gone on the back foot and looked to nick the rounds rather than fight for them. 90% of the board would have called him a chicken whilst the rest of us would have applauded his ability to switch styles.

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I agree with you completely Missy -That 4th round knockdown was the fight changer. Cotto was cool, composed and dealing with the Pacman until then.

He lost something after that knockdown. Maybe it was fear - I dunno but I was shocked with Manny. I can't take nothing away from him. Truely amazing. I don't think I'll ever bet against Manny again, maybe not even in the Mayweather fight!

On another topic I think Floyd Sr is right about the Pac Man being on "something" but hey that's another arguement for another day ;) Innocent until proven guilty - Right now I think Manny has done amazing things in the boxing world

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Confidence! is what Cotto lost in the 4th.

Cotto was robbed! He was about to KO Manny any second until the damn ref stepped in and stopped the fight. Miguel had him right where he wanted him, it was all part of his plan. Damn that Bayliss!!!!! ;D

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

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Originally Posted by hackey

As per title, do you think that Cotto in any way could have won the fight or was he always going to lose?

My thoughts are that in the early stages, behind the jab he looks excellent. He was catching Pacquiao and looked composed. He then wrecklessly tried to prove some point by banging with Pac and got clipped and went down.

That in itself was not a big knockdown and after he looked composed again, but the in the fourth decided to trade and took that great left and was never the same after it.

IMO he fought an awful fight. He made so many errors that for a great boxer are really strange. He comes across as intelligent but showed alot of stupidity in his tactics, no real composure and poor judgement.

On another day and with another trainer I believe he may have given a better account of himself and I'm sure that he is sorely disappointed, not about the loss, but in the manner of it. He didn't give himself the opportunity to win by fighting to his strengths.

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I believe I said something long these lines on another thread.....which got ignored;D

He 'lost' it in round 4 in which he was clearly winning till he went for it big and got dropped hard. Once they both knew he could be hurt it changed the fight greatly. I do wonder how the cards would have looked if Cotto had then gone on the back foot and looked to nick the rounds rather than fight for them. 90% of the board would have called him a chicken whilst the rest of us would have applauded his ability to switch styles.

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Did Miguel change his style ? or was he forced to by a superior fighter ?
In my mind Missy i think it was the latter.

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That's what adapting means you pug.

I said it and will say it again: We'll never know if Cotto could have won. However, with a good trainer and not a newbee who was panicking during some rounds and who couldn't give good advices to Cotto as how to redirect the shooting, things could have been MUCH more competitive.

of course Cotto could have won. He was doing well early on , and if he wouldn't be knocked down it would be a different fight. Still , I'd pick Pacman. I still got Cotto in the top 10 (at 10) P4P , how about you?

If if if if....yeah, I think with a better camp and a better corner, he certainly would have made a closer fight. I still think Pac would have won on points, but Cotto the 4th round knockdown was the fight changer. I thought that Cotto would be able to hurt Pac when he landed, and Cotto probably thought the same thing. Wrong.

I feel he was winning the latter rounds by running and potshotting. Pac was landing hardly anything from the 10th on . He would have had to run the whole fight like dirrell or floyd.

No. I had Cotto winning beforehand cuz I didn't think Pacquiao could take his power. Once it became obvious that he could it was over for Cotto. Boxing is not Cotto's greatest strength. It was only a matter of time before Pacquiao broke him down.

Wow the obvious escapes some people somehow.. Anyone watching the fight could tell that Pac was standing there letting Cotto tee off in the first couple of rounds.. the side to side movement wasnt there like he normally does in every fight and he didnt attack from the first round. Those were the obvious clues. So he let Cotto "be in the fight" until he felt like it there was nothing else to prove and went on the attack, which he revealed in the post fight press conference. Taking nothing away from Cotto as Im a big fan of his now, he banged with the best and it takes balls to do that.. lets just hope he doesnt turn into De Lahoya and start talking out of his ass later.

Cotto did well early on with his jab and was effective boxing Pacquiao.

Cotto's biggest downfall was he started exchanging with Pacquiao and with Pacquiao being quicker, he got the better of all the exchanges.

Cotto would of never beat Pacquiao though.

Cotto simply wouldn't of been able to handle Pacquiao's speed or the pace Pacquiao was setting.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

No. I had Cotto winning beforehand cuz I didn't think Pacquiao could take his power. Once it became obvious that he could it was over for Cotto. Boxing is not Cotto's greatest strength. It was only a matter of time before Pacquiao broke him down.

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Agreed.

I picked Cotto because i didn't think the small Pacquiao could deal with his power.

After watching the fight for a few rounds, i knew it was over for Cotto.:(

Cotto could have won if he only would have gone to the nuts a few times. Everyone knows Manny has big nuts. The both times Manny was stopped were caused by low blows.

Damn you Cotto :mad:

He went from low blotto to running man http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...cons/icon8.gif

Where was that cheating Cotto I once knew?
:-\

I thought pac's losses were one from a low blow and one from a punch to the liver.

If you mean could he have done anything differently on Saturday to win, almost certainly not... Of course he can punch and so that slim chance was always there, but since Manny could stand up to his power and saw everything coming, slim may have left town after the first couple of rounds. If your asking could he have won if he were a couple years younger and never lost to Margarito, I have no idea how much more likely it would've been, I guess at least significantly... Thing is that people assert the loss to Margo ruined his confidence, but it was sort of that same bravado that got him in huge trouble against fighters he should've beaten in Corley and Torres. I think Cotto was always going to get lured into a brawl with Manny one way or another, and that's not a fight he would have ever won.

Yes, certainly he could have. Miguel Cotto does own the skillset and innate ability to beat Pac, however, it was not to be last Saturday night.

He simply was ill-equipped, and under-prepared for the overwhelming assault looming, put forth for him that night in the person of Manny Pacquiao.

Watch the seventh round of their fight, clean up a bit of Cotto's mistakes due to fatigue, and uniformly apply that for twelve rounds, then you have something that can possibly beat the PacMan.

Biggest question though, would anyone have the right size of "heart" to support a cardio-work that stressful and gruelling to sustain for the full duration of the fight, as exhibited by Miguel in the seventh round?

Maybe Junior? Nah!

Cotto had a chance because he can take a punch, and equally, had the big heart to risk harm in order for the chance to attain success.

Cotto is not done, he can even get better.

Rebuild with a better team around him than the one Saturday, then it will not surprise me one bit, if success comes to him a knockin', to this time, stick a tad bit longer.

I honestly think Cotto could have won that fight if he used the jab more and started running earlier and avoided the exchanges. Sounds lame(everyone hates to watch it) but he was getting the worst of it inside.

I think Cotto could have done much better if he had a trainer that could help improve his defense. I still think he would have lost, but with a better defense he wouldn't have taken so much damage and would've been able to make it a more competitive fight.

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Originally Posted by piye

Yes Cotto needs a good trainer! every time he used the jab and moved he was effective! he decided instead to be a brawler against Pac who is faster and as it turns out a more effective puncher.

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Awesome sig you got there. :)

Cotto could have won if he stuck to original plan, which is box/counter. Not only he underestimated Pac's speed, but Pac's chin and power too. It's always a bad idea to initiate a slugfest with Manny.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Cotto boxed great in the first but when a ferocious fighter like Pac is on the attack he basically forces you into a punch-up.

Cotto must have got a big shock that he was coming off second best so badly.

Pac was simply much better than him. He basically beat Cotto in 5 rounds.

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I have to agree with Fenster , lets face facts , PACMAN was just better in every department.
Im sure if Cotto had boxed on the back foot more , then Pacman would have adapted.
This post is kind of silly really , i do not conform to " IF'S AND BUT'S "
Fact , Cotto praised PAC and said he was one of the best fighters of all time , and lets face it Miguel knows more about it than the rest of us put together.

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Me too,
plus you are not going to avoid everything Manny pulls out of the hat,you box off the back foot and try and skip away and he will double step cut you off or turn step and launch.
While you are moving, he will have some weird generic shot there to meet your head while he is also bodily moving so
his shots are very percussive and the damage will just toll up through the fight until he can catch you at will later on instead of earlier as happened.

Floyd should get all the credit in the world if he takes him on because even he wont avoid all the shots. Its the most risk he would have ever taken at this later stage of his game.

He may lean and bend with the wind and come back with his own answers, but he will still take a few very hard shots ; well thats what we all want to see anyway Floyds skill under pressure.

Floyd wins first half , MAnny wins a few middle rounds, Floyd takes control in the later rounds and scrapes in a unanimous decision.

The fight is over now and we know how Pacquiao crushed Miguel Cotto. Miguel started strong and gave Manny a good fight early but quickly declined still early in the fight. I think the Cotto of old could have beaten Manny (again I know he didn't!). Possible factors that could have weakened Cotto are discussed everywhere (as factors that strengthen Manny): First, his corner especially his rookie trainer with no fight plan whatsoever (and let's not even talk about the decision to retire) just motivating him to return and win, pretty much cheerleading him compared to Manny's Freddie Roach and their thorough fight plans. Second, Cotto's past wars. He has had some fierce fights where he was hurt and still not had not properly healed while Pacman came from easier win unscathed. Their is a lot of talk about what Margarito stole from him evident in all his following fights. Third, Cotto's training. Cotto is way slower than Pacman, and by the end he said "I couldn't see where the punches were coming from" but that's all he knew about Pacman. Everyone did. To which I think he simply got overconfident and didn't train his speed at all and planned to counter-punch instead while Manny had multiple fight plans. Also, there are comments that Cotto may have overtrained. Finally, some people claim Cotto had no chance whatsoever against an inhuman man in Manny. I disagree to this. I think the guy had a decent shot at fighting his best opponent so far but he got dismantled so badly that I can't yet decide if Manny was that good (and I know he's pretty good) or Cotto performed that bad despite his obsession not to get KO'ed.

Umm :peeker:

Hi and welcome to the forums. I'm not sure if you post on any other boards but I tend to do a search before posting a new thread just to save from cluttering the board and going over old ground. :)

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...tml#post811536

If Cotto had had a real corner, instead of the bunch of groupies he's got, he'd have been better prepared for Manny. Not saying he would've won anyway, but I'm sure he would've been more competitive. I think the gameplan for Manny should have been: jab, jab, jab, for the first 2-4 rounds, while countering Manny's attacks. Trading with Manny was a BAD idea. With Manny's handspeed, he tagged Cotto with 3-4 shots for every punch Cotto landed. And he caught Cotto clean. A good corner would've said to Cotto: WTF are you doing?!? But they were damn near useless.