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It really annoys me this, just look at Pac and Mayweather in recent times, why not fight every great fighter in your division before moving up!
Pac took on Diaz when there were better fighters holding belts, and Mayweather didnt fight Tzyu at LW for instance?
Why?
Because it sounds better to say that you've moved up through X divisions ;)
I agree with you though. Greatness does not equate to weight fluctuations.
Molla and name affair fights.It can dumb down the sport at times,limits due exposure to some lesser known capable fighters and assumes quite a bit.Its all about trinket collecting,not so much about the best fighting the best..we should demand it....or at least stop paying for spoonfed crap.
MONEYQuote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
Floyd was looking for DLH all along
After Diaz Pac could have fought Campbell or any belted fighter for what? maybe 3 to 5M. He was guranteed 12M againts DLH.
cleaning out one's division is a lost passion for today's boxers. nowadays a fighter would rather win a paper title and instead of defending that title against the number one contender, they go up in weight and pick and choose the easiest opponents.
in my opinion, i believe a fighter that cleans out his division before going up to another weight class is much more impressive than a fighter who wins a title and ducks that divisions top contenders. fighters of the past like julio cesar chavez, who holds the record for 27 title defenses and many others like sugar ray leonard, marvin hagler, salvador sanchez, bernard hopkins, shane mosley, finito lopez and countless others are looked at as legends because they fought and beat the best of their division before moving up. add oscar de la hoya to this list because along with his six division titles at least he had 17 successful title defenses which by today's standards is pretty darn impressive.
What fighters specifically are we talking about here?
You have to understand that the majority of multi-weight champs are actually on their way to another division when they are fighting in one, and so can't afford to hang around.
Look at Manny, that guy fought everybody worth fighting in the featherweight divisions then wanted to test himself against the p4p best and guys like Oscar, Floyd and Manny.
The lightweight division was never anything more than a pass through, he was moving up in weight, got another belt on the way and has now reached his new destination with the Mayweather dream fight.
You can't have a go at him for not fighting the best at lightweight, that was never his intention, he was headed for Floyd.
I do agree in the case of Floyd Mayweather that he should have fought some legitimate welterweight opposition seeing as he has been there for years but most fighters who move through weight classes do so to get to a specific opponent, nobody has the time to clear out every division they fight in especially when half of them are just quick drive throughs on the way to where they want to get to.
when pacquiao vacated his lightweight title he in no way had his sights on floyd mayweather. only after beating diaz did pacquiao go after de la hoya for a megabucks fight. call me old school but i believe it is much more impressive to fight the best fighters in your division before moving up to fight just for a paper title. and FYI, pacquiao only had 3 fights at featherweight, beating barrera and drawing with marquez. at super featherweight he lost to a fading morales, beat barrera and got a gift decision against marquez. but instead of fighting the very dangerous marquez to see who really was the better fighter he went up to lightweight and cherrypicked on david diaz instead of nate campbell, juan diaz, joel casamayol etc...not saying he wouldn't have beaten all three but he never tried. to me, what is more impressive is someone like julio cesar chavez who had 27 title defenses vs. pacquiao's 5. he olds the jr. welterweight record for title defenses at 16 after having more than 80 pro fights. now, that is much more impressive because he took all comers instead of fleeing them.
Firstly, please learn to punctuate, your posts are impossible to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Secondly if you don't think beating Morales, Barrera and Marquez is clearing out your division then we will never likely agree on anything.
Manny obviously had a plan in moving to 147 (5) as soon as he left super featherweight.
I don't know if you've noticed but in the last few years many of the best fighters in the world have been migrating towards the welterweight division because that's where the best fighters were.
Cotto, Floyd, Hatton, Manny (even Marquez) all moved up, and Oscar and Mosely moved down. Like hungry sharks they all congregated there because that's where the big fights were.
I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Manny went after the best fighters in the world.
He has fought Marquez, De La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto and now Floyd Mayweather.
I just cannot understand for the life of me why you'd rather he'd still be at 135 or 140 beating the likes of Guzman, Ali Funeka, Juan Diaz and Humberto Soto when has fought a whose who of the best p4p fighters in the world in his last 5 or 6 fights.
If you aren't happy with Manny's resume then you are clearly impossible to please and rather stupid, no offense of course. :)
As for those who stay in their own single division taking on all comers, it depends how much talent is in the divison. Many divisions in boxing have very few world rated fighters and rather than facing all comers many are just choosing to be a big fish in small pond.
It's not that hard to have 10, even 20 plus defences against B list opposition, it's much harder to move through 10 weight classes like Manny has done and fight a whose who of the best fighters in the world in most of them.
bilbo,
firstly, if you don't like my lack of punctuation then don't read my comments pendejo. secondly, it's obvious you're one of those nuthugging pactardos so i won't even attempt to try to reason with you because you people don't know how to reason. it's as if your lives evolve around one boxer that frankly i think that is really sad. as far as pacquiao's resume goes, yes, he does have an impressive record and resume. but let's not act as if he's the only one with a great record and resume. the truth is this, pacquiao has ducked many fighters when he was in the lower weights. the only reason why he's fighting the big guys is because he's making a gazillon dollars. he'd be a complete idiot if he refused that money. and let's not forget that he refused to give marquez a trilogy but he sure in the hell gave morales one after beating in their second fight. yes, pacquiao has a very nice shiney record but upon closer review, it's not what it's made out to be.
Good post Mil. :cool: De la hoya, Leonard and Hearns took full advantage of the move up in weight game. Certainly Leonard and Hearns paid their dues when fighting at a standard weight, though it was later in the game for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
You really can't compare Pac to PBF as far as moving up in weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
Pac has def. faced some of the best in some of the divisions he's been in.
More so then PBF I belive...
You could also flip the question around as well in a lot of cases..
Why don't fighters try moving up a division when they have completely cleaned out the existing one..
Hatton is a good example of someone who did... He really had 140 owned and was absolutely no doubt the world champion at that weight.. And moved up which I think was a brave thing by him...
But I think as Mick said about Pac, as long as you at least take on someone in the division with credit, and beat them in a manner where people can really reasonable argue that you'd be the favorite against anyone else in that division, then moving up is okay...
And also when you think about it, moving up is the bigger risk and challenge anyway... Not in all cases... You can find people at a lower weight who you'd pick over a lesser ranked fighter at a higher weight..
Ok let's play your game for a moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
So Hatton, De la Hoya, Cotto and Mayweather should never have happened, he should have cleared out 135 first.
So what four opponents do you think he should have fought that were better for boxing and his resume than those?
You are right about the welterweight division, historically it has been the 2nd most glamorous division behind Heavyweight, and almost all of the greatest fighters and modern talents have fought there, Both Sugar Rays, Armstrong, Mosley, trinidad, Hearns, Whitaker, De La Hoya, Duran, Benitez Floyd and Manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFirstly, please learn to punctuate, your posts are impossible to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Secondly if you don't think beating Morales, Barrera and Marquez is clearing out your division then we will never likely agree on anything.
Manny obviously had a plan in moving to 147 (5) as soon as he left super featherweight.
I don't know if you've noticed but in the last few years many of the best fighters in the world have been migrating towards the welterweight division because that's where the best fighters were.
Cotto, Floyd, Hatton, Manny (even Marquez) all moved up, and Oscar and Mosely moved down. Like hungry sharks they all congregated there because that's where the big fights were.
I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Manny went after the best fighters in the world.
He has fought Marquez, De La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto and now Floyd Mayweather.
I just cannot understand for the life of me why you'd rather he'd still be at 135 or 140 beating the likes of Guzman, Ali Funeka, Juan Diaz and Humberto Soto when has fought a whose who of the best p4p fighters in the world in his last 5 or 6 fights.
If you aren't happy with Manny's resume then you are clearly impossible to please and rather stupid, no offense of course. :)
As for those who stay in their own single division taking on all comers, it depends how much talent is in the divison. Many divisions in boxing have very few world rated fighters and rather than facing all comers many are just choosing to be a big fish in small pond.
It's not that hard to have 10, even 20 plus defences against B list opposition, it's much harder to move through 10 weight classes like Manny has done and fight a whose who of the best fighters in the world in most of them.
And you're right about being a big fish in a small pond, people have always said Leonard ducked Pryor, but it's funny he never went up to challenge Leonard at Welterweight, and expected Leonard to challege him at 140 instead. What is more impressive Leonard going up in weight to challenge guys or Pryor staying in Jr. welterweight beating up a blownup jr. welter in Arguello and having beating up lesser foes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by generalbulldogYou are right about the welterweight division, historically it has been the 2nd most glamorous division behind Heavyweight, and almost all of the greatest fighters and modern talents have fought there, Both Sugar Rays, Armstrong, Mosley, trinidad, Hearns, Whitaker, De La Hoya, Duran, Benitez Floyd and Manny.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboFirstly, please learn to punctuate, your posts are impossible to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by milmascaras1
Secondly if you don't think beating Morales, Barrera and Marquez is clearing out your division then we will never likely agree on anything.
Manny obviously had a plan in moving to 147 (5) as soon as he left super featherweight.
I don't know if you've noticed but in the last few years many of the best fighters in the world have been migrating towards the welterweight division because that's where the best fighters were.
Cotto, Floyd, Hatton, Manny (even Marquez) all moved up, and Oscar and Mosely moved down. Like hungry sharks they all congregated there because that's where the big fights were.
I don't see anything wrong with that at all. Manny went after the best fighters in the world.
He has fought Marquez, De La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto and now Floyd Mayweather.
I just cannot understand for the life of me why you'd rather he'd still be at 135 or 140 beating the likes of Guzman, Ali Funeka, Juan Diaz and Humberto Soto when has fought a whose who of the best p4p fighters in the world in his last 5 or 6 fights.
If you aren't happy with Manny's resume then you are clearly impossible to please and rather stupid, no offense of course. :)
As for those who stay in their own single division taking on all comers, it depends how much talent is in the divison. Many divisions in boxing have very few world rated fighters and rather than facing all comers many are just choosing to be a big fish in small pond.
It's not that hard to have 10, even 20 plus defences against B list opposition, it's much harder to move through 10 weight classes like Manny has done and fight a whose who of the best fighters in the world in most of them.
And you're right about being a big fish in a small pond, people have always said Leonard ducked Pryor, but it's funny he never went up to challenge Leonard at Welterweight, and expected Leonard to challege him at 140 instead. What is more impressive Leonard going up in weight to challenge guys or Pryor staying in Jr. welterweight beating up a blownup jr. welter in Arguello and having beating up lesser foes?
Exactly mate, the best fighters, the true greats are always to be found where the action is. That is no coincidence, as I said above, they are like hungry sharks on their way to the feeding grounds to try and take out a giant fish, most of these guys who only stay in one division and never move out of it are like barnacles stuck to a rock living on bits of slime and ocean ooze.
The only reason Pac is up around welterweight is Oscar.
Oscar wanted to end his career on a high by beating the P4P no.1, the Mexicutioner. Pac didn't care about the weight disadvantage because of the filthy lucre on offer. Obviously it backfired on Oscar and a whole new load of lovely huge money options were opened up for Pac.
Pac would have needed around 4-5 fights below 140 to match what he earned against Hatton alone. And remember he weighed as low as 138 for Hatton, so i'm sure he could have done it. Although only a mental would have gone back to where the money wasn't.
True but its not just about money. Any fighter would rather have the names of p4p stars and future Hall of Famers like Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Mayweather on their resume than talented but thus far completely historically insignificant fighters like Juan Diaz, Guzman, Funeka, Valero and Reyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Nobody outside of the hardcore boxing fan has ever heard of any of those guys whilst Hatton, Oscar, Mayweather and to a lesser extent Cotto are household names around much of the world, certainly to the casual sports fan.
99.9% is. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboTrue but its not just about money. Any fighter would rather have the names of p4p stars and future Hall of Famers like Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Mayweather on their resume than talented but thus far completely historically insignificant fighters like Juan Diaz, Guzman, Funeka, Valero and Reyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Nobody outside of the hardcore boxing fan has ever heard of any of those guys whilst Hatton, Oscar, Mayweather and to a lesser extent Cotto are household names around much of the world, certainly to the casual sports fan.
Yes I guess the names are a bonus.
Obviously Pac wouldn't have become a world-wide star without his recent exploits in the higher weights. But he would have never initially gone there if he was not earning purses he only ever dreamed of in his feather/supfeather/lightweight days.
Look it's a no brainer. Fight Diaz/Valero for $2m or Hatton/Oscar for $12m? No fighter would give a fuck about the physical disadvantages to earn money like that.
I agree with everyone else, but i still think he could of had one more fight at Lightweight against a big name before he moved up, Joan Guzman or Edwin Valero, i'd rather of seen those fights other than ODLH, Ricky Hatton, but of course it doesn't make sense money wise.
Why??Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
People were massively hyped up for the Hatton fight it was huge, one of the biggest fights involving a British fighter of all time!
How was him facing Hatton not as exciting or challenging as facing Guzman or Valero?
What would beating Guzman or Valero do for Manny's career more than beating a multiple world champ like Oscar or Hatton?
Just leaving money out of it, and imagine you were Pacquaio.
If you could pick your last three fights and win them who would you want on your record?
My guess is you will say Valero, Guzman and Funeka, but everyone living in the real world would rather have wins over De La Hoya, Hatton and Cotto on their record.
It's obviously more than just money. Yes he will make a fortune for fighting Mayweather but whose name would you most like to have on your record with a W next to it? Mayweather, or anyone else from featherweight to lightweight?
The original question was.... why don't fighters clean out divisions before moving up?
They do not clean out their divisions, or do not have to, if they have the ability to pursue a bigger game, a greater exploit in higher weight classes. Likewise, if the move will serve to be a financially rewarding endeavor and is a potential to add feathers on their caps.
The fighters who are cleaning out their divisions are mostly the one's that are willing to do so for their convenience. It is mostly but not exclusive to, their inability talent wise, or their lack of confidence for such a move anywhere north or south of their best weight class.
Bilbo its just my opinion that it would of been more exciting, for me to have seen those fights. I never said he made the wrong choice in moving up where did i say that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy??Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
People were massively hyped up for the Hatton fight it was huge, one of the biggest fights involving a British fighter of all time!
How was him facing Hatton not as exciting or challenging as facing Guzman or Valero?
What would beating Guzman or Valero do for Manny's career more than beating a multiple world champ like Oscar or Hatton?
Just leaving money out of it, and imagine you were Pacquaio.
If you could pick your last three fights and win them who would you want on your record?
My guess is you will say Valero, Guzman and Funeka, but everyone living in the real world would rather have wins over De La Hoya, Hatton and Cotto on their record.
It's obviously more than just money. Yes he will make a fortune for fighting Mayweather but whose name would you most like to have on your record with a W next to it? Mayweather, or anyone else from featherweight to lightweight?
But he did skip the division fighting a weak belt holder in David Diaz, and at that time there was strong rumors about a Edwin Valero vs Manny Pacquiao fight happening.
And everyone on this forum was hyped to see that, because it involved two very exciting fighters especially Edwin Valero who can punch like a mule. As for Joan Guzman yes i agree he's not well known, but as i said i never criticized Manny Pacquiao for not fighting him.
Because Joan Guzman was a horrible style match up for him, and it was a lose/lose situation for Manny Pacquiao, again im not criticizing Manny Pacquiao for not taking any of these fights, im just saying i would of loved to have seen them before he moved up.
Boxing is a different animal from what it was 2 generations and more ago. Sports for that matter has changed completely. In off seasons elite athletes had to take 9 to 5s to make ends meet, boxing was purely something they did because they loved it and it helped pay the bills. Now it can provide for a family several times over. The incentive to fight the best has been supplanted by the desire to fight the best at the most money possible. Oscar De La Hoya wouldn't have been able to handpick opponents back in the 60s like he did. Because De-La-Hoyan type paydays didn't exist for opponents. But this is a natural progression for boxing. The money is filtering through to the actual people doing the work rather than just the guys who get 2 names slapped on a contract. If your profession is to get punched in the face, why not do it for the most money possible? Why would you deprive yourself of that new ivory back scratcher? If I paid you a million dollars a year to sit in a cubicle and press a button once every 3 seconds, would you turn it down? If not, then why begrudge a fighter for fighting for the most possible money? It's not as if fans aren't getting anything like what they want. And actually, when you judge by PPV buys and TV ratings, it's only the minority who aren't. Cleaning out divisions is nice, but not necessary. I'd say Floyd Mayweather proved a lot more by beating Oscar De La Hoya than Kostya Tzsyu. What could Manny Pacquiao have done more significant at 135 and below than the Cotto fight?
He didn't skip any division, he fought Oscar for $20 million. When you're offered a fight like that you're not going to fanny around taking fights for relative peanuts against people the public haven't heard of. He knew if he beat Oscar he was going to make a mint so he took the fight. Then a guy he'd already beaten twice became the top lightweight, so what's the point in going back to 135 to fight for buttons? What would it prove, especially when he's now fighting two divisions up and knocking out world class welters?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBBilbo its just my opinion that it would of been more exciting, for me to have seen those fights. I never said he made the wrong choice in moving up where did i say that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWhy??Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
People were massively hyped up for the Hatton fight it was huge, one of the biggest fights involving a British fighter of all time!
How was him facing Hatton not as exciting or challenging as facing Guzman or Valero?
What would beating Guzman or Valero do for Manny's career more than beating a multiple world champ like Oscar or Hatton?
Just leaving money out of it, and imagine you were Pacquaio.
If you could pick your last three fights and win them who would you want on your record?
My guess is you will say Valero, Guzman and Funeka, but everyone living in the real world would rather have wins over De La Hoya, Hatton and Cotto on their record.
It's obviously more than just money. Yes he will make a fortune for fighting Mayweather but whose name would you most like to have on your record with a W next to it? Mayweather, or anyone else from featherweight to lightweight?
But he did skip the division fighting a weak belt holder in David Diaz, and at that time there was strong rumors about a Edwin Valero vs Manny Pacquiao fight happening.
And everyone on this forum was hyped to see that, because it involved two very exciting fighters especially Edwin Valero who can punch like a mule. As for Joan Guzman yes i agree he's not well known, but as i said i never criticized Manny Pacquiao for not fighting him.
Because Joan Guzman was a horrible style match up for him, and it was a lose/lose situation for Manny Pacquiao, again im not criticizing Manny Pacquiao for not taking any of these fights, im just saying i would of loved to have seen them before he moved up.
Ray Robinson and Armstrong didn't clean out the lightweight division before they moved on to welterweight. Were they ducking fighters or that they didn't give a shit about it? Behind the heavyweight division, welterweight is where the money and glory is in the lower weight classes.
And seriously who the hell would turn down 20 million dollar paydays to fight Guzman, Valero, Funeka, for 2 million instead of fighting De La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, Mayweather?
Cleaning out divisions has lost it's luster because more often than not there are 1-2 of the straps with paper champs that can't bring in money.
Furthermore anyone that says that getting the best fights against big names is not about money they are deluding themselves. PAC himself says "I'm just doing my job" instead of "I only fight the best". This is not a knock on Pacquiao it's just the situation, it's their JOB, at the end of the day who wants to get paid less?
100% agree.. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by killersheep
Fortunately though, and by no coincidence, following the money and big names has led him to the best fighter in the business...
I'm still trying to figure out where it written that a fighter has to clean out a division. I just wanna see good fights. If staying in one division means good fights great. If it moving up means better fights great. Doesn't matter to me. I just want interesting match ups and good fights.
Also we meaning the fans have to understand this is business for these guys. This is how they make there living. There gonna go where the money.