Should teachers have more power to control unruly students?

I know the Daily Mail is a sleazy and low quality paper, but the headlines come up on Yahoo and I feel the urge to click occasionally. Anyway, this article interested me somewhat.

We will hand power to restrain unruly pupils back to the teachers, say Tories | Mail Online

I teach in a culture where the teacher is king and it is not unusual for students to feel the force of a stick. I don't use force myself and have never hit a student, but I do throw them out sometimes and shout at them. But that is usually enough, I leave the physical abuse to the Koreans who seem to quite enjoy all that. On a certain level I think corporal punishment is a bit shitty, but on the other hand I think it can be very effective as a last resort.

In the UK teachers have no power whatsoever. I cannot believe that 2/3rds of teachers have considered quitting because of threats. I have never been threatened by a student and I could never imagine a student doing that to me. I would never have threatened a teacher as a kid either. It's nuts. When I was at school a boy punched the deputy-head square on the nose and was back at school within a month! He was eventually expelled, but it took a long time. I think he is probably dealing drugs now (steady tax free employment, I guess). I have no idea how teachers cope in some of the more problematic inner city areas.

I think the Tory proposals are actually quite fair and might do something to stop the behavioural rot that has occured in British schools, but it probably doesn't go far enough. Some of these kids are the offspring of devils. I would actually go as far as bringing in corporal punishment as a last resort too. It's used too much out here, but on the whole kids don't seem to be as behaviourally challenged as in the UK. I like teaching a lot, but would never teach British kids.

Should teachers be able to do more to control the unruly rabble of the classroom?

Teachers should use the authority to control children, not use violence like the cane or 'clip round the ear', which did nothing to control me. The fact that they would tell my parents scared me enough.

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Originally Posted by Master

Teachers should use the authority to control children, not use violence like the cane or 'clip round the ear', which did nothing to control me. The fact that they would tell my parents scared me enough.

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Same here. I was a pretty good student on the whole, though there were times when I could be quite naughty. Not in a horrible way, just talking in class and flicking pieces of eraser with a ruler. A glance from the teacher or a raised voice was usually enough to make me take heed. I use the same tools today and it works well, but I am dealing with kids who on the whole have pretty decent attitudes. They can get beaten by teachers here just for having their hair slightly too long or the ultimate sin of having a crafty cigarette. It doesn't help that during breaktimes students can see the teachers congregating and smoking together mind.

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Originally Posted by Master

Teachers should use the authority to control children, not use violence like the cane or 'clip round the ear', which did nothing to control me. The fact that they would tell my parents scared me enough.

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That's the thing though, the parents don't give a shit anymore, in fact when a teacher does tell them that their kid is in trouble the parent usually sides with the kid.

So IMO screw disciplining the kid, do something to those fucking idiot parents!

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Master

Teachers should use the authority to control children, not use violence like the cane or 'clip round the ear', which did nothing to control me. The fact that they would tell my parents scared me enough.

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That's the thing though, the parents don't give a shit anymore, in fact when a teacher does tell them that their kid is in trouble the parent usually sides with the kid.

So IMO screw disciplining the kid, do something to those fucking idiot parents!

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Yes makes it difficult if the kids do not respect their parents, so you have to try another angle like motivating them to do better in life than their lousy parents. Having a good education is one of the few ways to get on in life and it should be encouraged for all children. Best days of their lives.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Master

Teachers should use the authority to control children, not use violence like the cane or 'clip round the ear', which did nothing to control me. The fact that they would tell my parents scared me enough.

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That's the thing though, the parents don't give a shit anymore, in fact when a teacher does tell them that their kid is in trouble the parent usually sides with the kid.

So IMO screw disciplining the kid, do something to those fucking idiot parents!

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Totally agree. Parenting is a huge factor. When the parents don't give a shit about how the kid behaves and the teachers have little power to control them either, then it becomes a serious problem.

People are able to have children whenever they want, but they have no idea how to be parents. And then you factor in the huge numbers of broken families. The family unit is still very strong in Korea and causing shame to the family is a serious thing. Strong parents and strong teachers mean a society that is relatively free from the menace of rampaging criminal teenagers. It is somewhat authoritarian and has its downsides, but the positives are there to be seen. In the West we have gone too far towards compassion and giving children the cushion to do what they like when they like and we are paying the penalties. Of course, not all parents are bad, but there seem to be too many who are either not in control or else just don't care about being mature responsible parents.

PArenting is a huge factor but now, in some countries like Canada, because of some laws and dispositions to protect children, teachers have absolutely no power at all:

For example, a teacher doesn't have to even get a kid's arm and drag him out of the class... so if a kid says fuck off, disturbs everybody and get told to get out and refuses, what do you do? Sure often it comes from a bad parenting but sometimes, it's just the fact to live in a bad or tougher environment, then it gets pretty difficult. I would never allow slapping or hurt to be done to a kid but I still would be in favor to give some more tools for the teachers to be respected, including to squeeze an arm if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

PArenting is a huge factor but now, in some countries like Canada, because of some laws and dispositions to protect children, teachers have absolutely no power at all:

For example, a teacher doesn't have to even get a kid's arm and drag him out of the class... so if a kid says fuck off, disturbs everybody and get told to get out and refuses, what do you do? Sure often it comes from a bad parenting but sometimes, it's just the fact to live in a bad or tougher environment, then it gets pretty difficult. I would never allow slapping or hurt to be done to a kid but I still would be in favor to give some more tools for the teachers to be respected, including to squeeze an arm if necessary.

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You need some tools to enforce order in the classroom otherwise you have anarchy. I agree that beating kids is really not cool, but if the kid has really crossed the line then there does need to be some discipline. I will march a kid out if he is being stubborn (it's always a he too!) and refusing to go out, but it really is a last measure thing and really doesn't happen very often. Most kids know when to pipe down.

In terms of parenting I really think a good slap from my mother was very beneficial too. It wasn't nice and I would much rather have never been slapped, but it did teach me where the line was and to tread carefully if I was getting close to it. Not exactly child abuse.

How should parents and teachers treat kids that act up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeiFVxEUmjo

Cesar Milan has it 100% correct

Yes give the teachers TASAR GUNS , so they can use them on unruly students , and if the parents don't like it then use the TASAR on the parents also.
So the hard working students don't get dragged down to the same sorry level.
And if the students persists then a public hanging is a very fair option.

No, I dont believe that teachers should be given more powers to control unruly kids.

What they should have is the power to send them home if they misbehave, because it should be the parents job to bring their kid up and teach it how to behave.

British society has largely broken down because successive interventionalist governments convinced the masses that the State had a role to play in bringing up youth. Failed abjectly.

I'm a resonably bright and successful guy and I (nor any of my work colleagues or peer group) would consider being a teacher for one iota of a second.

Nothing to do with money..... so are many teachers second raters who would not be as successful in industry (no offence to any teachers, because I think many are bright people who would .... I just think that the proportion of 'losers' is higher than in, say, corporate law.)?

controversial????

Mary Whitehouse and Malcol m Muggeridge, remember those two silly cunts. They had it spot on ;D. At the time nobody seemed to agree, now most do. Ive seen a little of life, always 1st in line for the cain,never giving 2 fucks for anything. Im from a broken Home never had respect for fuck all. Then I started the D of E course that got me into climbing and self worth. Then it was Boxing, Having a Trainer who was like a Father to me, what He wanted out of it was success for me, which in return gave me something thats never left, Ethics and Fairplay. Trouble starts at Home, My 3 boys have never brought any trouble Home, because if they did I live there. It once happened that the police brought the 2nd oldest Home, because they had stopped Him late at night, and didnt believe He lived where He said He did. They explained He wasnt carrying Drugs and He hadnt got no previous :-\. Ill just say Broken Homes Broken Kjds most of the Time.

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Originally Posted by X

No, I dont believe that teachers should be given more powers to control unruly kids.

What they should have is the power to send them home if they misbehave, because it should be the parents job to bring their kid up and teach it how to behave.

British society has largely broken down because successive interventionalist governments convinced the masses that the State had a role to play in bringing up youth. Failed abjectly.

I'm a resonably bright and successful guy and I (nor any of my work colleagues or peer group) would consider being a teacher for one iota of a second.

Nothing to do with money..... so are many teachers second raters who would not be as successful in industry (no offence to any teachers, because I think many are bright people who would .... I just think that the proportion of 'losers' is higher than in, say, corporate law.)?

controversial????

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Allowing teachers to send students home would be an extension of power. It would fix the problems for that particular class, but the student might like being sent home and may even not bother going there anyway. Maybe more students would play up with the purpose of getting sent out too. That might be problematic.

As for their posibly being a higher quota of losers in the teaching industry than other industries, well I'm not so sure. Looking back on my own time at school, I recall a lot of hard working decent teachers. It was the path they had chosen and they tried to do it the best they could. I do think teaching in the UK might have become progressively more devalued over the years though. Powers are limited, students becoming more unruly and silly paperwork is everywhere the teacher looks. Conditions make it harder for effective teachers to do their job well.

I too would never consider going into teaching in British schools. I like teaching and doing what I do, but I am convinced that the British environment would turn me against it. It would be a miserable existance, counting down the days till the holidays.

I know four teachers personally from around here out of the four I 'd say two are sane.

Oh and you Miles, thats three out of five.

To be fair I think its 1 in 6 teachers shouldnt be there cause of their own hangups and secret lifstyles out of school; the kids make their lives worse for them cause they are like animals and sniff out the weak and destroy.

I dont know about belting them we got belted and just got smarter and didnt get caught again for the same things.

Detention and forced catch up work was a real prick, and it got stuff done.

I think teachers should definitley have more power. When i was at school a few years ago the teachers got very little respect, kids would swear at them and generally ingnore their requests. Whenever someone was told to leave the class all they had to do was say "no" and there wasn't anything the teacher could really do about it.

I misbehaved to an extent, but not drastically, just talking during class, throwing bits of paper etc. but i knew when to stop. The majority of the kids in my class didn't and the problem was they knew the teachers couldn't do anything. Evn if they could just grab a student and take them outside it might make the kids respect them a bit more. Usually the fear of my mam being told i'd misbehaved was enough to stop me doing things i shouldn't but i agree with what others have said here that parenting needs to improve. If a teacher ever said to anyone in my class they would call home the kid would just say "go on they won't care" or "they'll take my side", and that's a huge part of the problem

There are a couple problems with the system

#1 Teachers need to be taught how to handly unruly kids. Most of the teachers are women and no offense to them but they are more used to being nurturing and supportive and hell most teachers are kids themselves when they start out, they need to have the cojones to COMMAND discipline rather than ask for it.

#2 Parents take shit too personal, they are told "Your child was acting up in class" and they hear "I picked out your kid for being bad because I don't like you"....hey parents, maybe your kids are fuck ups!!! And even if they aren't to insert discipline in your own home you should discipline them just based on someone else telling you. The reason the parenting system has fallen apart is because discipline takes time and effort and parents are too tired, self centered, or lack the intrest to follow through.

#3 Kids are babied too often and too long and it is the job of the child to test boundries and limitations, they don't always do it with malice but they ALWAYS need to be disciplined or else they will find loopholes and get their way, that's what they are programed to do from birth.

I love parent and teacher interviews, we have an art teacher thats shitfaced the whole time even at work and does as little as he can.

I asked him what projects he had in place for the kids next year and the silence was long and golden,Im saying "so what plans have you made so far"? :cooldevil: my misses is kicking me under the table; fuk him.

We have another who hits the pubs and tries to pick up young women he also surfs with us we have fun with him too,he has two personalities from smoking to much gunja as well and is on meds and now only teaches part time (becuase its a natual disorder from stress.) ( bulshit it is) he went overseas with my mates and flipped right out on a boat cause theres no gunja on board ,they had to tie him up, take him to the indonesian consulate and his dad came and got him. He is still in charge of kids!

We have others who are bitter divorcees and hate children and still choose the job.

Others are just great and so natural they are friends with us and our kids but we get to hear everything ,theres a real mix in there and no controls once they are in they are in, unless they do something highly illeagal.

There should be random drug tests that would sort out many of them.They would have to leave their lifestyle behind or quit the job.I know four local ones who would have to choose.

Others are straight and great but really a few out of the hundred or so good ones also are straight but need physiological evaluating.One sits in tears in the corner and nice kids including my daughter deal with her stuff with her!

This is what I do for a living.

I teach the unruly students that nobody else can teach and I've been in "behavioral"/"alternative" education for almost a decade. I've seen things done right and things done wrong. I'm fortunate to be part of a team which developed an extremely effect program at my middle school (grades 7 and 8, or ages 12-15 for those unfamiliar) This is a great question, and there have been a lot of great responses. I figured that I should give my $.02.

In my school, we only put our hands on a student if they are at risk of harming themselves or others, after all other methods have failed. However, we have school police officer, and there is a criminal charge of "disrupting school assembly." Every year, I have a few students leave in a cruiser. If you are getting into fights regularly, you will be charged, guaranteed. Court involvement is very important. The huge explosive displays stop and fighting is dramatically reduced.

You need a carrot and a stick. You create a situation where the student benefits from good choices and suffer with bad choices. That's what happens when they are raised by good parents. If the parents fail, we get stuck picking up the slack. This is the reality. Starting at the top, schools need to recognize this and learn how to do things differently - cooperative disciple, school climate, mentoring, relationship building, high standards of academics and behavior, appropriate support AND firm consequences that matter.

Clearly, teachers should have the power and support to make sure the classroom is an environment where kids can learn. They can't learn in chaos or if the feel unsafe. The real question is this: how can give teachers the tools to run a class effectively. You need to stop the problems before they get to point of threats, swearing, shouting, refusing to leave, etc.

I could write a thesis on this, but here is one simple example of a different approach.

Take the time to understand the behavior, and don't wait until it has escalated.

What is the student gaining from acting out? What is the goal? There is always a reason. For the chronic troublemakers, there is always some deeper issue. You boils it all down to four goals/catagories.

1. Attention Seeking (peer or adult)
2. Avoidance (of work, of feeling unsafe)
3. Need to be in control
4. Mental health/pure socio-path

Most kids have a primary and a secondary goal. Take the time to figure it out. It takes me about five minutes with most students, but I've been at it a while. Once you know what the students is trying to achieve with the behavior, you use different strategies and techniques designed to help and manage students who have those needs/goals.

Once teachers have the tools and administrators are doing their jobs properly, you won't have to worry nearly as much about "controlling" the students. Actually, understanding that you CAN'T control them is the first step to getting them to act the way you want them to act.

I remember my mom talking to me about going into that teach america program and ugh, not for me. I admire grade school/high school teachers cause I wouldn't want to deal with that shit.

I will probably end up teaching at a college which I can deal with. Even then I find myself kind of old fashioned in the sense of being annoyed by people that actively and for no reason disrespect teachers. Even in college. Here its mainly "passive" stuff. Kids who come into class ten minutes late (or more) EVERY DAY. It bugs me. Students that will talk in class, that start packing up and making loud noises zipping up bags, etc., etc. five minutes before class is supposed to be out. I have a bad feeling I'll snap on somebody at some point. It just bugs me for some reason. Especially since I don't really have any asshole teachers. I had a few in undergrad, this one fucking douchebag physics teacher who made this girl cry over her staple placement on a paper and liked to discuss his "god" status at NASA.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I remember my mom talking to me about going into that teach america program and ugh, not for me. I admire grade school/high school teachers cause I wouldn't want to deal with that shit.

I will probably end up teaching at a college which I can deal with. Even then I find myself kind of old fashioned in the sense of being annoyed by people that actively and for no reason disrespect teachers. Even in college. Here its mainly "passive" stuff. Kids who come into class ten minutes late (or more) EVERY DAY. It bugs me. Students that will talk in class, that start packing up and making loud noises zipping up bags, etc., etc. five minutes before class is supposed to be out. I have a bad feeling I'll snap on somebody at some point. It just bugs me for some reason. Especially since I don't really have any asshole teachers. I had a few in undergrad, this one fucking douchebag physics teacher who made this girl cry over her staple placement on a paper and liked to discuss his "god" status at NASA.

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You get all sorts of teachers,some are great others are right stand over merchants. My first labourer Glen got the boot from school through the deviant work of one teacher. After being in the work force for a year or two he met this prick down the street and said hello to him,just to let it go.
this prick said "OH Glen Fl....... I suppose you're out here on the dole are you?'

Glen didnt even respond just went outside the supermarket and pooped every tyre on the cunts car and went and sat in his mums car waiting for her.

Good learning curve for old teacher eh, he doesnt rule out in the streets.

This man is humble now and pays his respects.

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

I remember my mom talking to me about going into that teach america program and ugh, not for me. I admire grade school/high school teachers cause I wouldn't want to deal with that shit.

I will probably end up teaching at a college which I can deal with. Even then I find myself kind of old fashioned in the sense of being annoyed by people that actively and for no reason disrespect teachers. Even in college. Here its mainly "passive" stuff. Kids who come into class ten minutes late (or more) EVERY DAY. It bugs me. Students that will talk in class, that start packing up and making loud noises zipping up bags, etc., etc. five minutes before class is supposed to be out. I have a bad feeling I'll snap on somebody at some point. It just bugs me for some reason. Especially since I don't really have any asshole teachers. I had a few in undergrad, this one fucking douchebag physics teacher who made this girl cry over her staple placement on a paper and liked to discuss his "god" status at NASA.

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You get all sorts of teachers,some are great others are right stand over merchants. My first labourer Glen got the boot from school through the deviant work of one teacher. After being in the work force for a year or two he met this prick down the street and said hello to him,just to let it go.
this prick said "OH Glen Fl....... I suppose you're out here on the dole are you?'

Glen didnt even respond just went outside the supermarket and pooped every tyre on the cunts car and went and sat in his mums car waiting for her.

Good learning curve for old teacher eh, he doesnt rule out in the streets.

This man is humble now and pays his respects.

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There is nothing worse than a teacher like that. The ego needs to be kept outside the classroom door. And in the streets too in this instance! ;D

We had one here that went from being a male to a female, that tested out the system a touch. Stayed on for a year or so then got shifted becuase she wanted them to act in a sort of R rated drama she had written and they jumped on her.
tits :spongebob: I dont know.

Too many kids raising kids today and parents wanting to 'make agreements' and be friends with their children more than whats right.Tell them what needs to be said,not what makes them feel warm and fuzzy.Tell me my Father wanted 'to talk' when I knew I did wrong and I'll show you a kid that sat the fook straight up REAL quick.Too many rely on Teachers to raise them.Teachers get payed crap wages to begin with.

Sorry Miles I flipped off on an anti teacher tangent.

We know some really great ones too, ones that have been there for all the right occasions and chosen to be friends to our daughters even out of school.