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Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
No doubt this has probably been brought up b4 but that's y I'm on here, to get all your opinions coz I havn't heard them bout this topic yet...
2 part question, prime 4 prime who wins in the ring?
And the second part of the question, outside of the ring, who was the badder man?
Inside the ring both men had huge punching power, and intimidation. Both had decent defenses that worked for them, Tyson had his bob and weave, Liston had his closed, tucked in, clamshell like defense.
Outside of the ring both lead infamous lives surrounded by jail sentences, adultery, and notoriety, and associated with the wrong people.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Inside the ring, Tyson wins. Liston was made to order for him. Not too much movement, hittable. You had to do a lot of moving around to beat a prime Tyson.
Outside of the ring, I go with Liston. I mean, he broke legs for the mob. He was a union buster. Mike was bad, but not that bad.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
Inside the ring, Tyson wins. Liston was made to order for him. Not too much movement, hittable. You had to do a lot of moving around to beat a prime Tyson.
Outside of the ring, I go with Liston. I mean, he broke legs for the mob. He was a union buster. Mike was bad, but not that bad.
I think TYson was worse outside, I mean he only tried to rape Teddy Atlas underage Niece and punch old ladies in the face and then robbed them.
Inside the ring I'll go with Tyson, unless he gets frustrated and tries to chomp on the guys ears.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Thanks for the reply guys...
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
Inside the ring, Tyson wins. Liston was made to order for him. Not too much movement, hittable. You had to do a lot of moving around to beat a prime Tyson.
Outside of the ring, I go with Liston. I mean, he broke legs for the mob. He was a union buster. Mike was bad, but not that bad.
I think TYson was worse outside, I mean he only tried to rape Teddy Atlas underage Niece and punch old ladies in the face and then robbed them.
Inside the ring I'll go with Tyson, unless he gets frustrated and tries to chomp on the guys ears.
I don't know about Liston's antics with the ladies, so point taken. But Tyson robbed ppl when he was younger. As an adult I only know about him beating up that one washed up boxer who was talking trash about him and that incident when he was hyped up on coke or something. There was that one couple who claimed he beat them up, but Mike had witnesses come forward to say he wasn't doing anything but minding his own business. Again, Sonny Liston worked for the MOB and he broke people's legs to keep them from forming a union at Ford.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
The problem with LIston is that he didn't seem like the type that would hit and hold, whereas you need to do that against Tyson. The less holding involved the more oppertunities Tyson has to hit you.
Tyson is faster and hits harder. Also probably a little harder to hit, and if I had to pick who had the better chin I would be leaning towards Mike in that regard as well.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
I favor a prime Tyson over a prime Liston.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Inside the ring Mike ko's Liston
Outside , neither guy is intimidated by each other.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Liston had a brilliant jab that would cause Tyson problems, but go with Tyson, although Liston may have been over the hill by the time he fought Ali.
Liston beat up police officers and was harassed by them. He was a real bad man. Tyson is a puppy compared to Liston.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
I'm not certain who the "badder man" was in actuality they were probably both so unsure of themselves that they were easier to break inside the ring than any rational man. Those guys did outrageous things to make people fear them and when they weren't feared they didn't do so well.
In a fight I figure this mirrors maybe the Frank Bruno fight or Bonecrusher Smith fight.....Tyson gets hurt but ends up KO-ing Sonny.
Foreman would have wrecked them both and perhaps Ron Lyle would have held his own as well. Ron Lyle killed somebody, so I reckon that puts him in the ballpark when we're talking about "bad men"
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
You know, this is what pisses me off about Mikes regard on all time lists, when you consider Mike at his best the Mike that beat Spinks, put him in with Liston, we see him winning, I also see him beating Frazier and Foreman, theyd have to be strong and move well, I dont see Mike not being able to beat Ali I mean alot of people put him down just because they dont like him but try imagining him bobing and weaving avoiding getting hit and throwing fast 3 and 4 shot combinations, theres not many boxers who could have coped with that and given enough back to justify a win, some may have survived to hear the final bell.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Tyson MAY have been able to get to Frazier because Joe poured it on late in fights where as Mike was a quick starter....if it went past 5 I'd favor Frazier more. vs Foreman? Tyson had 0 chance, not vs the young Foreman, not vs the Old Foreman....Tyson would get the shit beat out of him plain and simple.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
Lyle
Tyson MAY have been able to get to Frazier because Joe poured it on late in fights where as Mike was a quick starter....if it went past 5 I'd favor Frazier more. vs Foreman? Tyson had 0 chance, not vs the young Foreman, not vs the Old Foreman....Tyson would get the shit beat out of him plain and simple.
I think your selling Mike a little short saying he'd have 0 chance against either version of Big George. Prime Tyson had enough power and skill to have a chance against anyone ever.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
A prime Tyson would have beat Liston up, he was a much better boxer than Sunny, he had great head movement and unbelievable hand speed. Sunny was just big and strong but nothing special and he won the tittle from a much smaller man in Floyd Patterson.
I think outside the ring Liston was the badder man, while Tyson has made dumb choices and mistakes in his life he has a good heart. Liston on the other hand was a thug with well known ties to the Mafia.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Actually people are selling Sonny Liston short here, lets not forget Sonny Liston was a master at bullying opponents. Remember he taught George Foreman everything he knows about bullying opponents, he also had a ridiculous reach for his height, something like 84 inches wasn't it ? and lets remember Sonny Liston did have a ramrod jab.
Sonny Liston gets seriously underrated because of the Muhammad Ali fights, when infact theres strong sources that actually say Sonny Liston was 40 when he fought Muhammad Ali. Plus there was something for certain shady about the 2nd fight.
Sonny Liston at his best could very well of beaten Mike Tyson, he certainly had the tools. Im not saying he would of, because a prime Mike Tyson is a handful of anyone, and i do have Mike Tyson as the favorite in this fight. But lets not sell Sonny Liston short here.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Could come down to the first bully blinking losses.Think once Tyson gets under his jab that speed of hand and stance would catch up to Liston for Tyson TKO.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
You would have had to have been something exeptional to beat the young Tyson and I dont think Frazier and foreman were, they got hit they werent very mobile and werent particularly quick, Tyson would been all over em, Foreman only defended the titles twice before losing it.
Ali had a will to win but he did have trouble with quick fighters who could move and throw more than one shot at a time, he would have also had to be more reserved in his punch output because of Mikes defence.
To be fair to Liston, he did beat Patterson easy who fought with the same technique as Mike but Patterson could probably have fought as a light heavy, Mike would have been a whole different proposition.
In Mikes defence against Ali, Ali himself has actually said something along the lines of patterson being the most skilled boxer he fought.
Its hard for me to defend Mike against Lewis and Holyfield but the Lewis that got beat around by Mercer and the Holyfield that Bert Cooper was smashing around both loose quick to a young Tyson ;D
Out of all the fighters since Tysons heyday, I see Bowe giving him the most to think about, that man was skilled;)
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
ross
You know, this is what pisses me off about Mikes regard on all time lists, when you consider Mike at his best the Mike that beat Spinks, put him in with Liston, we see him winning, I also see him beating Frazier and Foreman, theyd have to be strong and move well, I dont see Mike not being able to beat Ali I mean alot of people put him down just because they dont like him but try imagining him bobing and weaving avoiding getting hit and throwing fast 3 and 4 shot combinations, theres not many boxers who could have coped with that and given enough back to justify a win, some may have survived to hear the final bell.
All you have to do is watch Mike against James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving. Neither man at the time would have matched Ali in his prime. Ali would have nailed Mike with the jab while leading him around the ring like a show dog. Even if Mike hit Ali with something and floored him early on, Ali would have gotten up and just continued blasting him with jabs until it got late, Mike slowed down and Ali didn't. It would have been a lopsided UD.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
ross
You would have had to have been something exeptional to beat the young Tyson and I dont think Frazier and foreman were, they got hit they werent very mobile and werent particularly quick, Tyson would been all over em, Foreman only defended the titles twice before losing it.
Ali had a will to win but he did have trouble with quick fighters who could move and throw more than one shot at a time, he would have also had to be more reserved in his punch output because of Mikes defence.
To be fair to Liston, he did beat Patterson easy who fought with the same technique as Mike but Patterson could probably have fought as a light heavy, Mike would have been a whole different proposition.
In Mikes defence against Ali, Ali himself has actually said something along the lines of patterson being the most skilled boxer he fought.
Its hard for me to defend Mike against Lewis and Holyfield but the Lewis that got beat around by Mercer and the Holyfield that Bert Cooper was smashing around both loose quick to a young Tyson ;D
Out of all the fighters since Tysons heyday, I see Bowe giving him the most to think about, that man was skilled;)
I can see Mike beating the younger version of Foreman simply because George didn't look that coordinated to me. He threw big punches and that's about it in my book. Frazier was hittable, that's why Geroge pulled the trigger on him. I could see Mike weaving around what George had to offer and blasting him to the body, then coming up to the head. As awkward as George's punches looked I imagine they would have been completely ineffective once Mike got inside. But the older version was much smarter, could absorb a lot of punishment and could have stretched it out until the later rounds where Mike was much less effective. A couple good 1-2s from him might have stopped Mike in his tracks.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
That's funny. Just because Tyson beats up an blownup Light heavyweight in Spinks, and that makes some people think he can beat prime Ali? 1 thing for sure Ali wouldn't be intimidated by Tyson's prefight stare or bullying antics. More than likely he makes fun of Tyson's high pitch voice and then whips him in the ring.
A prime Tyson vs a prime Ali wouldn't even be competitive. The only thing that would be interesting about such a fight is what Ali has to say about Tyson during the press conferences.
And hey if Tyson loses to Ali, his fans can say he was past his prime like the excuses they had when Buster Douglas beat him. Or maybe a long count excuse if he gets ko.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
Zilla
James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.
Thats just craap.
We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones;D
You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.
Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down;D
Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.
Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time;)
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.
Thats just craap.
We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones;D
You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.
Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down;D
Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.
Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time;)
You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.
Thats just craap.
We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones;D
You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.
Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down;D
Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.
Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time;)
You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.
Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards:rolleyes:
Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Thats just craap.
We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones;D
You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.
Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down;D
Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.
Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time;)
You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.
Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards:rolleyes:
Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.
Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
Zilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.
Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards:rolleyes:
Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.
Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.
Are you joking?
Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner;D
Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down;D Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback;D
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards:rolleyes:
Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.
Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.
Are you joking?
Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner;D
Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down;D Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback;D
No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.
Also look who Tyson was fighting in his prime. Nobodies. When he fought good names he got KTFO.
Back to this thread though, I really don't know which way to go. Probably Tyson!
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards:rolleyes:
Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.
Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.
Are you joking?
Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner;D
Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down;D Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback;D
Ali may have gotten dropped, but did he look worse for wear after getting up? Tyson was GONE after Douglas knocked him down and all Buster had to do was clean up. It's not even about whose chin was better, I don't think Ali could have KO'd Tyson. I think he would have been happy to just outpoint him. Tyson could be intimidated. Any fighter who had answers for what he could do would befuddle him. Tyson thought he could throw one punch against Holyfield and then he would magically disappear. When Holyfield not only survived but began whaling on Mike he didn't know what to do with himself. Even in loss, when has anything like that ever happened to Ali? Truth is, both fighter would have given each other problems, but at the end of the day Ali would've solved the Tyson riddle, whereas, Tyson couldn't have solved the Ali one.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.
Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.
When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.
Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.
Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition;)
As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.
When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.
Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.
When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.
Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.
Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition;)
As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.
When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)
Well, I guess you got me. Ali was a completely mundane fighter. There's absolutely nothing significant about him and Mike would have just steamrolled him. Ali didn't have a better chin or speed and wasn't a master at getting inside of an opponent's head. Mike would have breathed and peeled the skin off Ali's chest before punching a hole in him and then shaking the Ali carcass off his arm, flinging it into the crowd.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.
Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.
When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.
Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.
Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition;)
As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.
When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)
A prime Mike Tyson would of lost to Tony Tucker, had he not of broke his hand after the 4th round. He was also lucky he scored a flash knockdown against James Tillis, who was having his best round of the fight. And probably would of earnt a draw had it not been for that.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Tyson gets KO'd by Liston very early, Foreman the same ( look what George did to Joe Frazier) Frazier beats Tyson and Ali toys with him.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Tyson would do more than make Ali cry about his eyes between rounds and when he decked him like Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner did, hed tear him up.
George would be splattered like Lyle did, only Tyson wouldnt tire.
Frazier just gets hit too much to have any prayer with someone the speed of Tyson, who was faster than Ali, try getting Ali to put as much force in his punches and see if hes still as quick.
Ali, no one can say either way because I believe Ali and Tyson have showed at the height of their careers that they have too much for anyone with major flaws.
If you get hit too much you deffinitly dont hear the final bell against the young Tyson.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.
Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.
When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.
Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.
Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition;)
As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.
When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)
OK then if Tyson's chin is so much better, tell me someone who's punches he stood upto that hit as hard as Foreman, Frazier or Liston?
Also what does being undefeated matter?? Ruslan Chagaev was undefeated when he fought Wlad. Did that make him a better fighter than Wlad? No.
And you talk about Tyson only falling after taking a shit load of punishment? Do you really think he could have withstood the punishment that was being dished out in the Thriller in Manilla or the Rumble?? I don't.
Tyson's best victory for me was against an "OLD" Larry Holmes and Spinks for me means nothing. Yes Michael Spinks was a great Light Heavy but at HW he was never going to be big enough. Ali destroyed a better LHW in Bob Foster.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.
Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.
When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.
Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.
Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition;)
As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.
When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)
OK then if Tyson's chin is so much better, tell me someone who's punches he stood upto that hit as hard as Foreman, Frazier or Liston?
Also what does being undefeated matter?? Ruslan Chagaev was undefeated when he fought Wlad. Did that make him a better fighter than Wlad? No.
And you talk about Tyson only falling after taking a shit load of punishment? Do you really think he could have withstood the punishment that was being dished out in the Thriller in Manilla or the Rumble?? I don't.
Tyson's best victory for me was against an "OLD" Larry Holmes and Spinks for me means nothing. Yes Michael Spinks was a great Light Heavy but at HW he was never going to be big enough. Ali destroyed a better LHW in Bob Foster.
Facing undefeated title challengers does mean alot, it means as a champion Mike was facing people who were too goo for anyone else to beat, instead of going through all the used up hasbeens, obviously Klitschko proved he was better than that undefeated fighter, he showed some class by fightng a top tier opponent, if they havent lost yet there is every chance they could be good enough to beat the champ.
As for Foster, Spinks fought and beat Holmes, Foster went up and was dropped like a yo yo, the bloke either didnt have a very good chin or defence;D Spinks had 4 successfull fights at heavy and lost to Tyson in his 5th, Foster got anhialated by the only 2 world rated heavies he fought.
Also, id say Rudduck, Bruno and Lewis deffinitly hit harder than Frazier and must at least be level with Foreman;)
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rjj tszyu
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.
When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.
Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.
Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition;)
As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.
When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)
OK then if Tyson's chin is so much better, tell me someone who's punches he stood upto that hit as hard as Foreman, Frazier or Liston?
Also what does being undefeated matter?? Ruslan Chagaev was undefeated when he fought Wlad. Did that make him a better fighter than Wlad? No.
And you talk about Tyson only falling after taking a shit load of punishment? Do you really think he could have withstood the punishment that was being dished out in the Thriller in Manilla or the Rumble?? I don't.
Tyson's best victory for me was against an "OLD" Larry Holmes and Spinks for me means nothing. Yes Michael Spinks was a great Light Heavy but at HW he was never going to be big enough. Ali destroyed a better LHW in Bob Foster.
Facing undefeated title challengers does mean alot, it means as a champion Mike was facing people who were too goo for anyone else to beat, instead of going through all the used up hasbeens, obviously Klitschko proved he was better than that undefeated fighter, he showed some class by fightng a top tier opponent, if they havent lost yet there is every chance they could be good enough to beat the champ.
As for Foster, Spinks fought and beat Holmes, Foster went up and was dropped like a yo yo, the bloke either didnt have a very good chin or defence;D Spinks had 4 successfull fights at heavy and lost to Tyson in his 5th, Foster got anhialated by the only 2 world rated heavies he fought.
Also, id say Rudduck, Bruno and Lewis deffinitly hit harder than Frazier and must at least be level with Foreman;)
Frank Bruno had good power, but never showed he could stop an elite fighter. And Razor Ruddock only had one punch.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Tyson's kind of like Naz, you can't look at their whole careers cause they just let themselves go, you've just gotta look at that point in time when they were at their peak (no matter how short a time period that might have been)and if you do you would have to admit that they would have likely been too much for anyone around their weight class no matter what era. All the Tillis fight really showed was that a poorly motivated Tyson could still cruise against an Ali type opponent (not quite of Ali's caliber obviously but still Tyson would have been far more motivated for an Ali fight). Same with Naz really, I'm not sure how anyone could watch the Jose Badillo fight and think Morales could beat that Naz. And that's obviously just one example.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson was a fighter you could put in with anyone confident of him winning, Hamed wasnt, you always had suspicions that a decent boxer would take him, Jose Badillo isnt really a yard stick of greatness either.
Hamed beat some good fighter but it always looked as though Barrera and Morales could take him.
Mike nearly ran out of viable opponents, Rooney said if he hadnt left they were going to pull Mike out for a few years and let some other fighters establish themseves as a base for opponents.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Its not about the quality of the opponent though, neither Tyson or Hamed beat many really quality opponents during their prime but the way they did it, you could just tell they were a level above. Unfortunately it was only later after they had started to fall off that they began to fight truly great fighters and because they lost to some of those guys people act like their prime was overrated, that the reason they looked so amazing was because they were feasting on less than elite fighters, which just isn't the case.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
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Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Its not about the quality of the opponent though, neither Tyson or Hamed beat many really quality opponents during their prime but the way they did it, you could just tell they were a level above. Unfortunately it was only later after they had started to fall off that they began to fight truly great fighters and because they lost to some of those guys people act like their prime was overrated, that the reason they looked so amazing was because they were feasting on less than elite fighters, which just isn't the case.
This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OumaFan
Tyson's kind of like Naz, you can't look at their whole careers cause they just let themselves go, you've just gotta look at that point in time when they were at their peak (no matter how short a time period that might have been)and if you do you would have to admit that they would have likely been too much for anyone around their weight class no matter what era. All the Tillis fight really showed was that a poorly motivated Tyson could still cruise against an Ali type opponent (not quite of Ali's caliber obviously but still Tyson would have been far more motivated for an Ali fight). Same with Naz really, I'm not sure how anyone could watch the Jose Badillo fight and think Morales could beat that Naz. And that's obviously just one example.
And this.
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Re: Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Mike Tyson was a fighter you could put in with anyone confident of him winning, Hamed wasnt, you always had suspicions that a decent boxer would take him, Jose Badillo isnt really a yard stick of greatness either.
Hamed beat some good fighter but it always looked as though Barrera and Morales could take him.
Mike nearly ran out of viable opponents, Rooney said if he hadnt left they were going to pull Mike out for a few years and let some other fighters establish themseves as a base for opponents.
Well he'd have run into Evander whether he stayed with Rooney or not and the result would have been the same. Demolition of Tyson. Evander and Lewis are the only true world class guys he fought who were genuine HW's and he was destroyed by both.
