Mike Tyson v Sonny Liston

[ross]

James Tillis and Larry Holmes to see he couldn't have beaten a prime Ali. Tillis gave Tyson problems and Holmes was able to tag Mike with the jab despite his bobbing and weaving.

Thats just craap.

We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones

You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.

Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down

Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.

Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

[Zilla]

Thats just craap.

We could say the same about Ali being dropped by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper and struggling bad and getting a gift decision against Doug Jones

You call knocking out Holmes in the 4th proof Mike was poor? Well the same but older version of Holmes took Holyfield the distance, beat Ray Mercer quite widely and was unlucky to not get the decision against McCall, he only lost by split decision.

Against Tillis he wan easy and knocked him down

Unlike Ali, Mike has no gift decisions.

Its a shame evrything happened the way it did because revisionists would now have you believe Mike was nothing, he doesnt even exist on some greatest lists, its pathetic because the same boxing journalists were saying at the time that Ali has a challenger for the greatest of all time

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

[ross]

You got it all wrong. I'm a huge Tyson fan. And I would love to say Tyson would have chopped Ali in two. It just isn't true. Tyson beat Holmes and Tillis, but look at what they were able to do to a prime or near prime Tyson when neither man was considered at the top of the game. Holmes hit Tyson with his jab wayyyyy too much, particularly with Tyson's bob and weave defense. A prime Ali would have been able to do even more and how Tillis blunted most of Tyson's offense by playing keep away would have been employed by Ali as well.

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

Are you joking?

Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner

Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback

[rjj tszyu]

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

Are you joking?

Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner

Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Also look who Tyson was fighting in his prime. Nobodies. When he fought good names he got KTFO.

Back to this thread though, I really don't know which way to go. Probably Tyson!

[ross]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

[Zilla]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

Well, I guess you got me. Ali was a completely mundane fighter. There's absolutely nothing significant about him and Mike would have just steamrolled him. Ali didn't have a better chin or speed and wasn't a master at getting inside of an opponent's head. Mike would have breathed and peeled the skin off Ali's chest before punching a hole in him and then shaking the Ali carcass off his arm, flinging it into the crowd.

[ICB]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

A prime Mike Tyson would of lost to Tony Tucker, had he not of broke his hand after the 4th round. He was also lucky he scored a flash knockdown against James Tillis, who was having his best round of the fight. And probably would of earnt a draw had it not been for that.

[THE THIRD MAN]

Tyson gets KO'd by Liston very early, Foreman the same ( look what George did to Joe Frazier) Frazier beats Tyson and Ali toys with him.

[rjj tszyu]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

OK then if Tyson's chin is so much better, tell me someone who's punches he stood upto that hit as hard as Foreman, Frazier or Liston?

Also what does being undefeated matter?? Ruslan Chagaev was undefeated when he fought Wlad. Did that make him a better fighter than Wlad? No.

And you talk about Tyson only falling after taking a shit load of punishment? Do you really think he could have withstood the punishment that was being dished out in the Thriller in Manilla or the Rumble?? I don't.

Tyson's best victory for me was against an "OLD" Larry Holmes and Spinks for me means nothing. Yes Michael Spinks was a great Light Heavy but at HW he was never going to be big enough. Ali destroyed a better LHW in Bob Foster.

[ross]

No fucking way Tyson had a better chin than Ali. Ali got dropped yes but he always got up. Did Tyson ever get up to go on and win? Tyson would have never got up from that left hook from Frazier.

Ali got dropped a few times, Mike got dropped after taking rounds and rounds of clean big shots, Holyfield couldnt finish Mike on his back and Lewis had to push him down all the losses including Douglas came when anyone could see he wasnt fighting the same anymore.

When tyson fought Holyfield he had a longer absence from boxing than Ali did, he wasnt the same fighter and he never came under suspiscion of taking HGH like Holyfield either.

Mike should be judged on what he did up to Spinks when he was doing everything right, rather like people saying Ali shoulkd be judged on what he was like before he went in exile.

Unlike Ali, Mike showed no weakness, he wasnt dropped by nobodys or gifted decisions, he was a force that ripped through a division, Alis best win was supposed to be against Williams who was mid 30's and had 5 losses and a draw, hardly awe ispiring opposition

As for quality of opposition Tyson fought and beat 3 undefeated fighters as a defending and unifying champion, Tony Tucker, Tyrell Biggs and Michael Spinks.

When Ali was in his supposed prime, he didnt defend agianst 1 undefeated fighter, in fact as champion the first undefeated fighter Ali fought beat him (Joe Frazier) then he managed to beat the second (Foreman) then got beat by the Third (Spinks)

OK then if Tyson's chin is so much better, tell me someone who's punches he stood upto that hit as hard as Foreman, Frazier or Liston?

Also what does being undefeated matter?? Ruslan Chagaev was undefeated when he fought Wlad. Did that make him a better fighter than Wlad? No.

And you talk about Tyson only falling after taking a shit load of punishment? Do you really think he could have withstood the punishment that was being dished out in the Thriller in Manilla or the Rumble?? I don't.

Tyson's best victory for me was against an "OLD" Larry Holmes and Spinks for me means nothing. Yes Michael Spinks was a great Light Heavy but at HW he was never going to be big enough. Ali destroyed a better LHW in Bob Foster.

Facing undefeated title challengers does mean alot, it means as a champion Mike was facing people who were too goo for anyone else to beat, instead of going through all the used up hasbeens, obviously Klitschko proved he was better than that undefeated fighter, he showed some class by fightng a top tier opponent, if they havent lost yet there is every chance they could be good enough to beat the champ.

As for Foster, Spinks fought and beat Holmes, Foster went up and was dropped like a yo yo, the bloke either didnt have a very good chin or defence Spinks had 4 successfull fights at heavy and lost to Tyson in his 5th, Foster got anhialated by the only 2 world rated heavies he fought.

Also, id say Rudduck, Bruno and Lewis deffinitly hit harder than Frazier and must at least be level with Foreman

[Zilla]

Playing keep away and flicking out a week jab wouldnt keep Tyson off them, neither would it get them a win on the judges cards

Holmes could have ran like a biitch all night and flicked out his little sissy jab to the 12th round but he wouldnt have beaten him, thats all he would have been able to hope to do against Mike, anyone who trys to plant their feet against that Tyson gets knocked out and Ali wouldnt have lasted long on the ropes either.

Prime Ali had legs and didn't lay on the ropes. What I'm saying is prime Ali's jab would have been more effective than Holmes' and his movement was better than Tillis'. He would have been a super version of both guys and no one had a better chin than Ali. Had Mike caught him clean he would have still been there. The question is what would a demoralized Tyson have done in the later rounds once his power didn't have a visible effect and he felt himself tire. Tyson could be intimidated and I think Ali would have been the one to do it.

Are you joking?

Ali got dropped by Banks, Cooper, Frazier and Wepner

Tysons got a better jaw than Ali by far, even an out of shape and rusty old Tyson took Lewis's best right hands for 8 rounds and then had to be pushed down Oh, he also wan a round, so he did better against Lewis then Holmes did against him in that comeback

Ali may have gotten dropped, but did he look worse for wear after getting up? Tyson was GONE after Douglas knocked him down and all Buster had to do was clean up. It's not even about whose chin was better, I don't think Ali could have KO'd Tyson. I think he would have been happy to just outpoint him. Tyson could be intimidated. Any fighter who had answers for what he could do would befuddle him. Tyson thought he could throw one punch against Holyfield and then he would magically disappear. When Holyfield not only survived but began whaling on Mike he didn't know what to do with himself. Even in loss, when has anything like that ever happened to Ali? Truth is, both fighter would have given each other problems, but at the end of the day Ali would've solved the Tyson riddle, whereas, Tyson couldn't have solved the Ali one.